What do you think the reason is that certain players built for the postseason choked in the playoffs?

[Michael Farkas]

Sometimes, these bonuses were 25% or more of a player’s annual salary, which meant a lot in the days of low salaries, 1-year contracts

Not to disagree with your premise...but the same could be said for a player today. You get almost $4 million (as a player's share) for winning the Cup. I don't believe that it's subject to escrow either.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Not to disagree with your premise...but the same could be said for a player today. You get almost $4 million (as a player's share) for winning the Cup. I don't believe that it's subject to escrow either.

The players on the SC winning team divide an approximate total of $3.75 as they see fit. It usually ends up being around $150K per player, depending on how the guys decide on share allotment (black aces, etc).

It’s not $4 mil per player.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Right, of course. So, if you're making $750,000 and you get ($3.75mm/20) $187,500, your livin' pretty easy - relatively speaking.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Ovechkin has a somewhat underwhelming post season career (minus 2009 and 2018).

Hes a huge, physical player. One of the best scorers of all time. But his numbers fell off pretty dramatically in the playoffs. His playoff totals sandwiched between his two great runs are 31-29-60 in 76 GP. This was in his aged 24-31 seasons.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

There is an "it factor" when it comes to consistent playoff performers, no luck involved. Every now and again a guy can have a one off great playoff, like Keith Primeau in '04, but the best playoff players perform nearly every postseason regardless of circumstances. Doug Gilmour was great in the postseason from his rookie season till the day he retired. O'Reilly is a current one, who's performed in the playoffs nearly every time he's made it. I suppose a player would need to be lucky to be on a winning team that makes the playoffs, but once you've shown aptitude on the highest stage your services are always inquired about.

There's also no style that automatically translates. There are power forwards that you'd think could translate given their propensity for goal scoring and violence, but then you see guys like the aforementioned Keith Tkachuk or Todd Bertuzzi just flop in the playoffs. Meanwhile a skilled but soft and one way winger in Phil Kessel scored consistently and at a high level in the playoffs during his youth and prime.

I think there's a level of fearlessness that you need to have to succeed in the playoffs. Not just not being scared of big and tough teams and being able to play through it and give it back, but not being afraid of making a mistake and overthinking things. Mitch Marner's over the glass penalty in Game 6 of 2021 is a prime example of this, guy had all the time in the world to ice it and yet he chucked it into the stands, clear case of a guy in his own head afraid to make a mistake. Also can't be afraid of throwing your body into the path of a shot puck, taking a hit to make a play, just generally stepping out of your comfort zone.

So much pressure in the playoffs, need to have a certain personality to adapt and thrive. Some guys can take that anxiety and use it as fuel to elevate themselves, other guys are cool as cucumbers and don't let the pressure throw them off from their usual regular season dominance.

I'm trying to think of defensemen this phenomenon applies to. Lot's of forwards that choke in the playoffs after dominant regular seasons, can't think of too many defensemen that turn into flops come playoff time. I guess Jake Gardiner is an example, could skate like the wind and was great offensively, but come playoff time he got in his own head and was mistake prone, Bruins ate him alive in '18 and '19. Defensive defensemen that have good regular season results don't often seem to flop in the playoffs. Maybe that's due to expectations or big defensive defenseman is truly the safest play style that translates.

 

[The Macho King]

I'm trying to think of defensemen this phenomenon applies to. Lot's of forwards that choke in the playoffs after dominant regular seasons, can't think of too many defensemen that turn into flops come playoff time. I guess Jake Gardiner is an example, could skate like the wind and was great offensively, but come playoff time he got in his own head and was mistake prone, Bruins ate him alive in '18 and '19. Defensive defensemen that have good regular season results don't often seem to flop in the playoffs. Maybe that's due to expectations or big defensive defenseman is truly the safest play style that translates.

Shea Weber has one good run in his career - his last one with Montreal (and part of that being a "good run" is greatly diminished expectations for him at that point in his career). I'd say Ryan Suter also qualifies there, although he was never really in the discussion for best Dman in the league except for maybe the lockout year.

That being said, you're right that I can't really think of many that it applies to. Most great Dmen see that translate pretty well (Hedman, Doughty, Karlsson, Makar as the guys on the top of my head). But then again, the guys we're talking about are mostly not superstar level forwards - they're the good first liner types, so maybe the comparison doesn't fit as well?

 

[Gorskyontario]

Every now and again a guy can have a one off great playoff, like Keith Primeau in '04,

Keith Primeau completely destroyed Chris Chelios in the 1995 playoffs.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

For those who remember it, the narrative goes that ,with both Sundin and Reichel out of the picture, Quinn was forced to promote Alyn McCauley to the first line with Roberts and Hoglund, and they had a magical run for a while (as they should have because Reichel sucks in the playoffs and McCauley is a handsome Ontario boy). That doesn't get across how rattled the Leafs bench actually seemed to be by the disruption.

The lines they attempted to run in the game were:

Roberts - Reichel - Hoglund
Tucker - Green - Mogilny
Healey - Corson - Domi
Ponikarovsky - McCauley - Valk

They started the game with their third line, and the kerfuffle with the lineup card happened after the first whistle. They send Green's line out after that, and then Karel Pilar takes a high-sticking penalty. They kill that penalty and go back to the full lines they still have, and it's not until 5 minutes in before you see Roberts and Hoglund out there. You leave Gary Roberts on the bench for 5 minutes to start the game because you don't know who his linemates are - that's as clear a sign as any that you're not in control of the situation and none of this was remotely on purpose. Roberts and Hoglund both end the game having played fewer minutes than Garry Valk, despite a two goal night for Hoglund on assists from Roberts.

By game 6, they're running with the lines they'd mostly maintain through the rest of the series, round 2 with the Senators, and up to round 3, game 4 where the Canes and Irbe had pretty definitively solved that line.

I forgot that Quinn kind of fell into that Roberts-McCauley-Hoglund line that basically carried the Leafs offensively outside of Mogilny showing up in Game 7 against the Islanders and Games 6 and 7 against the Senators. He still gets credit for not breaking up the Roberts line though even if it was a happy accident. Reichel stunk in the playoffs, blessing in disguise to not have him dressed.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Ovechkin has a somewhat underwhelming post season career (minus 2009 and 2018).

Hes a huge, physical player. One of the best scorers of all time. But his numbers fell off pretty dramatically in the playoffs. His playoff totals sandwiched between his two great runs are 31-29-60 in 76 GP. This was in his aged 24-31 seasons.

15th all time in postseason goals (and consider "80s factor") with a Conn Smythe. That's not a good example. Here are the stats from Ovechkin's window of making the postseason (only missed once in 2013-14)

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

15th all time in postseason goals (and consider "80s factor") with a Conn Smythe. That's not a good example. Here are the stats from Ovechkin's window of making the postseason (only missed once in 2013-14)

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

15th all time is good, but below what you would expect from a player like Ovechkin (2nd all time in goals). He has the same number of playoff goals as Esa Tikkanen and Patrick Marleau. Again good, but better would be expected of arguably the best scorer ever.

 

[WarriorofTime]

15th all time is good, but below what you would expect from a player like Ovechkin (2nd all time in goals). He has the same number of playoff goals as Esa Tikkanen and Patrick Marleau. Again good, but better would be expected of arguably the best scorer ever.

He didn't play on an all time great team though. Marleau has an extra 48 playoff games to hit the same total.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

He didn't play on an all time great team though. Marleau has an extra 48 playoff games to hit the same total.

Give Ovi excuses if you want, but his playoff performances were mostly underwhelming for a player of his stature, especially from 2010 to 2017.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Give Ovi excuses if you want, but his playoff performances were mostly underwhelming for a player of his stature, especially from 2010 to 2017.

This is the history of hockey forum, so we should keep things factual. Leave your agenda-based, cherrypicked stat posts for the main boards.

If Ovechkin was underwhelming, every player besides Crosby of that generation was underwhelming. Look at the 2007-08 through 2018-19 stats. Aged 22-33, and before scoring kicked up a notch in present day.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Look at everyone with a decent sample size of games played. Crosby - 1.14, Malkin -1.04, Ovechkin - 0.98, P. Kane - 0.97. Highest GPG of anyone with 50+ Games Played in that sample.

 

[Michael Farkas]

He didn't play on an all time great team though.

"All time", it depends on your definition, of course...tough to have any all time teams in the cap era with all these teams.

But in the same window as your stat criteria, the Washington Capitals are the very best team in that window. .641 points pct.

If such a thing (pts pct.) existed in the playoffs, they are 15th at .486.

Which isn't to say Ovechkin wasn't pulling his weight most of the time.

 

[WarriorofTime]

"All time", it depends on your definition, of course...tough to have any all time teams in the cap era with all these teams.

But in the same window as your stat criteria, the Washington Capitals are the very best team in that window. .641 points pct.

If such a thing (pts pct.) existed in the playoffs, they are 15th at .486.

Which isn't to say Ovechkin wasn't pulling his weight most of the time.

yeah, most of their other "core" players routinely were let downs in the playoffs, Mike Green, Alexander Semin come to mind. I wouldn't say they were a great team and I think that's pretty evident when stepping back from a 300 foot level and examining their rosters and performance in a historical context, they spent a lot of time feasting off a very bad Southeast division. Lines/Pairs would have looked generally something like this (obviously plenty of fluctuation)

Ovechkin-Backstrom-Semin
Knuble-Laich-Fleischmann
Chimera-Fehr-Johansson
Hendrickson-Steckel-Bradley

Schultz-Green
Carlson-Alzner
Erskine-Sloan

Varlamov
Theodore

This doesn't have the "feel" of a team that should have won a bunch more (the way I'd say about say the Thornton-Marleau era Sharks). Outside of prime Ovechkin doing prime Ovechkin things, it's not a great team.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

This is the history of hockey forum, so we should keep things factual. Leave your agenda-based, cherrypicked stat posts for the main boards.

No need to accuse me of bias.

I think the numbers shown he has underperformed in the playoffs, sans two post season appearances.

You also made a claim that he didn't play for a great team (it did win b2b presidents trophies and have the most points in the league for the 2010's decade).

This doesn't have the "feel" of a team that should have won a bunch more

I thought you were trying to keep it factual?

 

[WarriorofTime]

No need to accuse me of bias.

I think the numbers shown he has underperformed in the playoffs, sans two post season appearances.

You also made a claim that he didn't play for a great team (it did win b2b presidents trophies and have the most points in the league for the 2010's decade).


I thought you were trying to keep it factual?

I am keeping it factual. By promoting discussion. By all means, argue for the greatness of those capital teams circa 2009, 2010, 2011 ish and make the case that Ovechkin was the one that let them down. I would assume we’d be a bit beyond taking presidents trophies as gospel considering unbalanced schedules but go ahead, have at it.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ovechkin was excellent in 2009 and still very good in 2010 and 2011.

Green and Semin played awful in 2010.

Backstrom played poorly in 2011 but I still to recall he was hurt.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Ovechkin was excellent in 2009 and still very good in 2010 and 2011.

Green and Semin played awful in 2010.

Backstrom played poorly in 2011 but I still to recall he was hurt.

Still, 2 great runs (2009, 2018) and two good runs (2010, 2011), 2 ok runs (2008, 2019) and then 8 underperforming runs in my view (2012-2017 and 2020-2022). Its overall a underperforming playoff resume for an all time arguably top 10 player ever.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

I am keeping it factual. By promoting discussion. By all means, argue for the greatness of those capital teams circa 2009, 2010, 2011 ish and make the case that Ovechkin was the one that let them down. I would assume we’d be a bit beyond taking presidents trophies as gospel considering unbalanced schedules but go ahead, have at it.

An "all time great team" is a pretty high bar, and what exactly does that even mean? A dynasty team? Again not exactly a category based in facts. All I know is a team that won multiple presidents trophies, and lead the league in points for a decade was at least a great team.

And yes they underperformed in the playoffs as a team, and Ovi did as a player.

And is it really "promoting discussion" by claiming I have an agenda? Seems you cant just politely disagree with my stance on Ovi's postseason career.

 

[WarriorofTime]

An "all time great team" is a pretty high bar, and what exactly does that even mean? A dynasty team? Again not exactly a category based in facts. All I know is a team that won multiple presidents trophies, and lead the league in points for a decade was at least a great team.

And yes they underperformed in the playoffs as a team, and Ovi did as a player.

And is it really "promoting discussion" by claiming I have an agenda? Seems you cant just politely disagree with my stance on Ovi's postseason career.

Hard to take someone in good faith when their second post is “same number of goals as Patrick Marleau” to justify their first.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Hard to take someone in good faith when their second post is “same number of goals as Patrick Marleau” to justify their first.

Whats that about cherry picking?

If you think that Ovis playoff resume is good for a top 10 player all time, and probably the best goal scorer ever go ahead. I don't agree. Try to disagree with me without claiming an agenda though. And don't claim you are promoting discussion while also claiming I have an agenda.

 

[MadLuke]

The if you remove 2 great run when that removing 25% of someone body of playoff work is a bit dangerous, if remove 1999 and 1998 to Hasek playoff career, Mario 91-92, etc... if you are not Gretzky-Roy, etc,, ,if you remove your 2 best (and not the 2 worst in exchange) playoff run resume will often look quite thin.

We are lucky enough to have seen (and watched often because it was a top profile even if it was early) Ovechkin playoff exit, 2010 against Halak, those big against the Pens it would be hard to construct a narrative against Ovechkin not showing up.

Adn before turning 25, Ovechkin scored 131 pts in 136 games not a special drop from his regular season ppg and his 69 goals in 136 games is quite high for the era, his career goal scoring rate is the same as Hull-Sakic, no one would dare calling those bad playoff goal scorer.

I think someone can make an argument that Ovechkin is not a legendary playoff (or international) performer like he is a regular season one easily for sure (Pat Maroon played more playoff games has of now after all despite playing half the regular season one), but I am not sure because Ovechkin is not built for the playoff or choke, did Montreal really adjusted to him because coaching-matchup took advantage of a gamestyle that does not work when you really try to stop it or just got lucky ?

Maybe people in the future will see first in regular season goal all time (out the top 10 in playoff if that happen) despite having played in the 4 round era all is life in a almost always in the playoff team.... and build a narrative from it.

Jagr had the best playoff ppg of his time, scored over 200pts, was +30, won 2 cups being a main piece in one of those and can still encounter some playoff narrative.

 

[WarriorofTime]

If you think that Ovis playoff resume is good for a top 10 player all time, and probably the best goal scorer ever

So now you've gone from cherry picking to drastically moving the goal posts. I think Ovechkin is a proven playoff performer and Conn Smythe winner. I think it would have been nice if he had more deeper runs (in accordance with a top 10 player all time, and probably the best goal scorer ever) but I also think it's reasonable to determine that there wasn't a ton he could do there based on circumstance. Picking and choosing which years to look at is just weak imo.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

So now you've gone from cherry picking to drastically moving the goal posts. I think Ovechkin is a proven playoff performer and Conn Smythe winner. I think it would have been nice if he had more deeper runs (in accordance with a top 10 player all time, and probably the best goal scorer ever) but I also think it's reasonable to determine that there wasn't a ton he could do there based on circumstance. Picking and choosing which years to look at is just weak imo.

I've done no such thing. I stated from the start that Ovechkin has a somewhat underwhelming playoff resume given how he ranks all time. And its not really a cherry picked amount. I looked at an uninterrupted stretch of 7 years (during his mid to late prime) where he did not perform up to expectations.

Continue to insult me/attack me if you want to. I would expect someone who is "looking at the facts", and "promoting discussion" to have a more mature method of disagreeing with another person online.