What do you think the reason is that certain players built for the postseason choked in the playoffs?

[Crosby2010]

There are plenty of those names out there of players that I believe were built for the playoffs or at least had the size or skill or were tailored made with their physical style. But why do you think these players dropped the ball in the playoffs all of the time? Just sticking to these specific guys more or less because I am sure there are some opinions on this.

Alexei Yashin - 6'3" 225lbs. a hard right handed shot, played on some good teams too where he didn't have to do all the heavy lifting. Definitely played his way out of the hearts of the Ottawa Senators fans. Granted he wasn't a physical beast out there, but he was big. Looked like he might be onto something in 1997 and 1998 when he was playing on inferior teams that weren't expected to do much. But when he was playing on teams expecting to do more he folded up faster than a deck of cards. 1999, 2001, 2003, 2007 all come to mind, and even though when he was an Islander it wasn't expected that he was going to go far, he still was bad.

Pierre Larouche - Got lucky getting traded to Montreal in the middle of their dynasty. Pete Mahovlich was getting older but I think the Habs are still better off with his well rounded game. Larouche was young, he had huge support on the team, he eventually played on Lafleur's line and yet the two Cups he won he was often a healthy scratch in the playoffs! This is a guy who scored 50 goals twice! He seemed built to play on the Habs, a skilled French player who was a goal scorer. I get that Bowman didn't like him, but he did nothing of note in Pittsburgh and really only had a nice run in 1986 on New York.

Pat Quinn - So I am going the coaching angle here. Quinn was set up pretty good in Philly. I get it, they lost to an eventual dynasty in 1980, but the Flyers had a 35 game unbeaten streak that year. What do you think happened to him in the playoffs? 1992, 1993 both times the Canucks lost when they shouldn't have, I'll give them the magical 1994 run though. Then the Leafs and losing to teams that they were better than (1999, 2002) and not being able to get over the hump against Jersey or Philly either despite always having close series. Can't blame him when he coached Canada, he did well, but what about the NHL playoffs? He's a Hall of Fame coach.

Keith Tkachuk - Was he just in the same boat as a guy like Marcel Dionne where they keyed on him and there was never a lot of support behind him? To me, I don't think so. He also went to St. Louis, and then Atlanta and never did anything there either. Just seemed built for the postseason. Big, strong, good along the boards, good in the corners, could hit, could fight, was tough! And yet you never saw inspired hockey from him in the postseason. He certainly had support in St. Louis. In Phoenix it was all him and Roenick but you saw players of his type perform well and sort of take a series on their back, but he never did.

Joe Thornton - We beat a dead horse with a guy like poor Joe. He is comfortably a future HHOFer, no doubt. You can say in Boston he was younger, but those playoff stats are ugly, and he was a 100+ point guy in Boston and did nothing of note. San Jose he has tons of support. Dionne can't say this, Tkachuk can't say this at least not for that prolonged of time. So what gives? 6'4" 225 lbs. Classic case of a 2nd round bust. His teams were usually good enough to at least get that far but he never took the bull by the horns. Thornton was big, was tough, was a great playmaker and worked well down low and on the cycle (two big things in the postseason). Why was he different in the postseason? Was he not intense enough or too predictable? Did they all expect the pass from him? I don't know, but if there is a player that hasn't an excuse for his playoff failures it is him, because there are definitely times a good series by him catapults the Sharks to greatness.

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[Midnight Judges]

I think it’s mostly happenstance.

 

[overpass]

I don't know if Quinn ever had a Stanley Cup quality roster. His teams won their share of playoff series. I don't think they underachieved. But if I was going to pick one weakness that hurt Quinn's teams in the playoffs, I would point to special teams.

His 1980 Flyers team basically didn't care about special teams. They took a lot of penalties, scored the fewest goals on the power play, and still won based on dominating at even strength. But that approach failed against the great power play of the Islanders, who lit them up for 15 power play goals in a six game final.

Quinn's Leafs teams were good offensively but pretty ordinary on the power play. In the playoffs their PP was only 13%. Quinn was the coach and GM so he can't blame that on anyone else. I just don't think special teams were a priority for him.

 

[MadLuke]

I think it’s mostly happenstance.

Make you wonder sample size/puck luck creating an impression can occur in a sport like hockey.

Some possible actual difference:

) Playoff hockey is a bit different, intensity, referee, maybe facing better team where everyone give an always efforts, some player style does not transfer particularly well, a bit like old Weber with Mtl was quite the superior playoff player vs regular season the way the game was referred and played.

) Player ethic, a player that already give it all in the RS (which would make no sense outside low minute 4th liner), cannot possibly elevate his play in the playoff, maybe some slack more and go all-in once the playoff approach.

) Big stage mental, pressure, can be a thing, the way PK Subban played in the world championship or against Crosby as a rookie in the playoff, there was little doubt that he would show up during the playoff and he did. Wanting the puck and have the game in their hands versus fearing for it to happen...

 

[Michael Farkas]

This is part of proper talent evaluation. Some teams really scout for "playoff players" and there's at least some validity to it.

You really beef up your pre-scout work for players that matter, so you find holes and the best players can adapt and get around it...and players that have a little less adaptability tend to fail.

When people say, "I don't care how he makes the saves...as long as he makes them." or "I don't care how...I just ask how many." and all that stuff, that's fine and all...but that's how you get suckered into bad contracts or whatever. The ability to evaluate talent is not common. So, you get people that go, "ah, the draft is a crapshoot" ...well, is it? Not really. There's definitely some luck involved, just like in a game...you can shoot a puck off someone ass, have it hit both posts, and go in...right? Like, that's not pure skill. But ya know, there's a lot of skill that determines the outcome of games.

I have to run right now, but I'll try to expand on this later on with some examples if I can...

 

[Ishdul]

Big players don't have a noticeable leg up in the postseason, it's just something that's been repeated so much and driven into everyone's heads that they accept it as a given without any further introspection. There's no such thing as being "built for the playoffs" in the scouting report sense.

 

[Stephen]

This is part of proper talent evaluation. Some teams really scout for "playoff players" and there's at least some validity to it.

You really beef up your pre-scout work for players that matter, so you find holes and the best players can adapt and get around it...and players that have a little less adaptability tend to fail.

When people say, "I don't care how he makes the saves...as long as he makes them." or "I don't care how...I just ask how many." and all that stuff, that's fine and all...but that's how you get suckered into bad contracts or whatever. The ability to evaluate talent is not common. So, you get people that go, "ah, the draft is a crapshoot" ...well, is it? Not really. There's definitely some luck involved, just like in a game...you can shoot a puck off someone ass, have it hit both posts, and go in...right? Like, that's not pure skill. But ya know, there's a lot of skill that determines the outcome of games.

I have to run right now, but I'll try to expand on this later on with some examples if I can...

There are a ton of guys who aren’t the flashiest of superstars but you know based on their track record they’re playoff style players and they get recycled on contending teams year after year. Not regular season glamorous but they just thrive in those H2H series matches.

Ryan McDonagh, Justin Williams, Carl Hagelin, Corey Perry, Pat Maroon, just a random few names off the top of my head. Kids don’t grow up with their poster on their walls but they each add a lot to those big game playoff situations. As a fan of the sport if these kind of guys are an acquired taste but the fact they’re there every year isn’t a fluke.

 

[sr edler]

You need to be a gamer to elevate in the playoffs, which is mostly psychological. I don't think it's about body mass or anything like that. Saku Koivu was a smaller skill player but always upped in the playoffs, and in best-on-best internationals.

With guys like Yashin, K. Tkachuk, T. Bertuzzi and Thornton, I think it's fairly easy to see why. Yashin was a bit slow and didn't seem to care too much about team success, Tkachuk didn't drive too much play on his own and was pretty dumb/undisciplined (same for Bertuzzi), whereas Thornton was too much of a laid back perimeter guy.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Variance/falsely assuming any big guy is "built for the playoffs". Add Iginla to this list. He had one big run and was lackluster otherwise.

 

[82Ninety42011]

Gotta have will and drive along with some talent and luck. The playoffs are a different animal from the regular season. You gotta play through injuries and take risks with your body. Some have that drive others don't.

 

[The Macho King]

It's not size or physical play that makes a player a playoff performer. Just look at Brayden Point and Nikita Kucherov. Both small, skilled, most perimeter players. They find another gear come mid April, but they don't suddenly start playing differently.

It isn't happenstance and it isn't variance. There is something to it. Hell if I can define it though.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Yashin only cared about getting paid. Really all there is too it he played exactly the same game in the regular season as the playoffs. Cashin Yashin.

Larouche is mostly before my time but his numbers don't look that bad? Also I remember him being the Rangers best player in 86 watching the conference finals.

Pat Quinn was a mediocre coach who was popular with boomers because he smoked cigars and occasionally had a funny quip. Also coached the leafs. If anything he seemed to be more of a motivator getting mediocre teams to perform beyond expectations. Not sure if any team he coached should have ever been favored to win the cup.

Keith Tkachuk was too stupid to be a good playoff performer. Compare him to Cam Neely who gamed in the playoffs every year, Neely occasionally lost his temper but he a fairly smart guy and tough player. Tkachuk was a dipstick.

Joe Thornton(and Marleau) were career losers. I don't think any top tier(usually that loosely with Marleau) offensive stars have blown more series as the favorites then these guys. Zero intensity, zero emotion unless they were crying on the bench afterward.


Just my impressions of these guys mentioned.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Lack of heart.

The best playoff performers aren't always the biggest or most skilled guys, it's about talent and about drive. You can't just go out and do your way to points, it takes more effort to produce at your regular season level

 

[sr edler]

Pat Quinn was a mediocre coach who was popular with boomers because he smoked cigars and occasionally had a funny quip. Also coached the leafs. If anything he seemed to be more of a motivator getting mediocre teams to perform beyond expectations.

A mediocre coach who got mediocre teams to multiple Cup finals? Seems like a reasonable equation, not.

 

[Hobnobs]

A mediocre coach who got mediocre teams to multiple Cup finals? Seems like a reasonable equation, not.

He wasn't mediocre, that's pretty much a given but he did have flaws. One major flaw was playing his goons too much. His teams generally fell on taking too many penalties.

 

[Brodeur]

Pat Quinn - So I am going the coaching angle here. Quinn was set up pretty good in Philly. I get it, they lost to an eventual dynasty in 1980, but the Flyers had a 35 game unbeaten streak that year. What do you think happened to him in the playoffs? 1992, 1993 both times the Canucks lost when they shouldn't have, I'll give them the magical 1994 run though. Then the Leafs and losing to teams that they were better than (1999, 2002) and not being able to get over the hump against Jersey or Philly either despite always having close series. Can't blame him when he coached Canada, he did well, but what about the NHL playoffs? He's a Hall of Fame coach.

During the pandemic, I did a deep dive on the Devils 1999-00 season to keep myself entertained. Part of the exercise was looking at the playoff opponents and the injury "luck" was decidedly on the Devils side that run.

At least for the 2000 Leafs, I'd almost argue that Pat Quinn the GM made things tougher for Pat Quinn the coach. Toronto did some roster shuffling very early into the season:

October 1, 1999: Leafs trade winger Fredrik Modin to Toronto for defenseman Cory Cross.

October 8, 1999: Leafs trade defenseman Sylvain Cote to Chicago for a 2001 2nd rounder -- Cote moved to make room for Cross?

October 20, 1999: Leafs trade a 2000 2nd to Boston for RW Dmitri Khristich

October 23, 1999: Leafs lose RW Steve Sullivan on waivers -- Sullivan moved to make room for Khristich

With hindsight, they were probably better off keeping Modin-Sullivan-Cote rather than Khristich-Cross.

And then mix in some bad injury luck. The unfortunate Bryan Berard eye injury happened after the trade deadline, so Quinn couldn't look for a replacement. Then Yanic Perreault and Nik Antropov went down in the opening round of the playoffs.

Despite that the series was tied going into Game 5. But early in that game, Alexander Karpovtsev left early and missed Game 6 due to an irregular heart beat.

In Game 5, this was the ice time due to Karpovtsev being unable to continue:

Kaberle (25:46) - Yushkevich (27:12)
Markov (21:55) - Karpovtsev (7:21)
Cross (15:54) - Andrusak (21:35)

In the final game, their blue line was:

Kaberle (22:35) - Yushkevich (25:48)
Markov (21:31) - Andrusak (17:12)
Cross (17:19) - Diduck (14:00)

Diduck/Andrusak played 14/0 games in the NHL after that. Maybe with Karpovtsev/Berard, they could have gotten over the hump.

 

[EpochLink]

For every Alexei Yashin, Keith Tkachuk, Todd Bertuzzi and Joe Thornton whom were 'built for the playoffs'...then you got Claude Lemieux, Danny Briere, Martin Gelnias and Nikita Kucherov.

 

[Johnny Engine]

October 1, 1999: Leafs trade winger Fredrik Modin to Toronto for defenseman Cory Cross.

October 8, 1999: Leafs trade defenseman Sylvain Cote to Chicago for a 2001 2nd rounder -- Cote moved to make room for Cross?

I don't have a super clear memory of that happening - I was hearing about that stuff weekly in the Sunday edition of The Telegram and occasionally HNIC's Hot Stove, and was maybe a year out from checking out roster updates near constantly on the internet, but for a while the assumption formed in my head that it was Mike Smith dragging his guys around - which was not correct, Smith didn't show up in Chicago for a few months after that. Korolev and Karpovtsev were definitely Smith's guys though, and maybe he was fond of Steve Thomas too.
So making room for Cross probably holds some water, but I think Kaberle looking like the real deal early on had to have had as much to do with reorganizing the defense as anything else. If you've got Berard, and another young guy who suddenly looks like he's about as good as Berard, you don't need a 34-year-old whose value relies on the power play to any degree...burning Modin to do that, however, has to be seen as a loss regardless of what you needed.

 

[Gorskyontario]

A mediocre coach who got mediocre teams to multiple Cup finals? Seems like a reasonable equation, not.

We're talking about a guy who misspelled Robert Reichels name in the lineup and had to play a playoff game down 1 center. Not exactly Scotty Bowman.

 

[buffalowing88]

Yashin only cared about getting paid. Really all there is too it he played exactly the same game in the regular season as the playoffs. Cashin Yashin.

Larouche is mostly before my time but his numbers don't look that bad? Also I remember him being the Rangers best player in 86 watching the conference finals.

Pat Quinn was a mediocre coach who was popular with boomers because he smoked cigars and occasionally had a funny quip. Also coached the leafs. If anything he seemed to be more of a motivator getting mediocre teams to perform beyond expectations. Not sure if any team he coached should have ever been favored to win the cup.

Keith Tkachuk was too stupid to be a good playoff performer. Compare him to Cam Neely who gamed in the playoffs every year, Neely occasionally lost his temper but he a fairly smart guy and tough player. Tkachuk was a dipstick.

Joe Thornton(and Marleau) were career losers. I don't think any top tier(usually that loosely with Marleau) offensive stars have blown more series as the favorites then these guys. Zero intensity, zero emotion unless they were crying on the bench afterward.


Just my impressions of these guys mentioned.

I agree with Tkachuk being too stupid to tailor his game around different playoff tactics. That's fair. I do think he had 'heart' though and was not the passive-aggressive type that you saw with Thornton and Yashin. I remember in I think the 02 playoffs when he said the Blues weren't going to lose Game 3 against Detroit and sure enough, guy puts up a hat trick and they win.

Detroit adjusted after that, however, and Tkachuk didn't do the same. St. Louis was knocked out in 5.

But Tkachuk did play hard/physical. He just wasn't capable of making his own plays nor sharp enough to adapt on-the-fly in a tight series.

 

[The Panther]

Variance/falsely assuming any big guy is "built for the playoffs". Add Iginla to this list. He had one big run and was lackluster otherwise.

How was he "lackluster" outside of that one playoff run...??

In his sporadic playoff appearances from 1996 to 2009 (mostly '06 to '09) -- and ignoring the 2004 playoff run -- Iginla scored 15 goals and 27 points in 28 playoff games.

14 playoff goals in 26 games from '06 to '09 isn't exactly "lackluster" on a low scoring team in a low scoring period. This is a club where Daymond Langkow was on the top line.

In those first-round losses, Iginla led the Flames in scoring (by a lot) in 2006, 2007, and 2008. (In the brief 2009 series, Jokinen scored one more point than Iginla.)

From the '06 to '09 playoffs, Iginla himself scored 24% of the Flames' total goals, and he had a point on 44% of them. I really don't know what else he was supposed to do.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If a player steps up their game in the playoffs, yet didn't do that in the regular season, were they half-assing it in the regular season? Do you really want that? What if your team is fighting for a playoff spot?

It seems to me over the sheer volume of minutes, playing good hockey is in some ways habitual. Abruptly changing that up after game 82 isn't something you should count on.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Assuming we're talking primarily about star players and not worker bees, almost no one is playing at 100% for every game in a season. But I wouldn't think that needed to be said, respectfully...

 

[HolyHagelin]

Unfortunately my guy Rick Nash belongs on this list.

 

[MadLuke]

If a player steps up their game in the playoffs, yet didn't do that in the regular season, were they half-assing it in the regular season

Yes almost by definition if someone step up in the playoff it is because they were not giving it all in the regular season.

But considering there is 82 games to play, you do not want your high minutes guy to play every minutes, every time they step on the ice with the intensity and decision making they would have late third period of a game seven, from how and which shot to block, what hit to take (and what referee would or would not call they can get away with).

Not sure it would even be possible to do it and not something you would want them to try either, 82 + 4 round has a bit of marathon element to it, lot of player loose weight during the season and change their stick as it goes on and they lose strength, there is some being able to manage the tank.... (something that player I imagine have to learn, specially those developed from system with more reasonable schedule)

And there is intensity-willingness and being able to stay calm to do it correctly, almost everyone will obviously want and try a lot in the playoff