What do you think needs to be done?

[jkutswings]

I like what AA brings, but I'd still be willing to part with him in the right trade package.

But not Mantha. A team would have to give up something ridiculous to part with him at the moment.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

You have to give good players to get good players, typically speaking.

Their is not likely a young top pairing dman available worth Mantua

 

[Frk It]

Their is not likely a young top pairing dman available worth Mantua

There are players I'd trade Mantha for. I just have no idea who is actually available or not.

Saying we shouldn't trade AA or Mantha as a blanket statement, I'd disagree with.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

There are players I'd trade Mantha for. I just have no idea who is actually available or not.

Saying we shouldn't trade AA or Mantha as a blanket statement, I'd disagree with.

I think it's safe to say those down aren't available

 

[Flowah]

There are players I'd trade Mantha for. I just have no idea who is actually available or not.

Saying we shouldn't trade AA or Mantha as a blanket statement, I'd disagree with.

Wouldn't trade Mantha for anything short of a top pairing guy and I doubt any other team would take that. That's our real need. We don't lack for bottom 4 guys. Kronwall, DK, Marchenko, E, Sproul, XO could perform reasonably well down there. Green + whoever as our top pair instantly looks a lot better.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Thats just 6 years of drafts with 3 of them being incomplete due to age/experience.

You cited 12 guys, Frk wanted 4 more added. Total of 16.

Picks made on dmen in those drafts in those rounds: 244.

 

[19 for president]

I'm officially in full tank mode, so I do the following.

This Season:

Trade Vanek for a 2nd/1st at the deadline.
Trade Green for a 1st/ Prospect at the deadline. Retain a million or two if necessary
Trade Smith for a bag of peanuts or waive him when he is back.
Trade Ott for a pick if anyone wants him for additional grit in the playoffs
Trade Tatar or Nyquist for an equivalent dman. If no deals are there, try again before the expansion draft.

Expansion Draft

Keep: Zetterberg, Mantha, AA, Nielson, Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan
NE: Larkin
Expose: Jurco, Helm, Abby, Frk, Glenny
*Do we need to protect Bert? if so expose Sheahan

Defense: Dekeyser, Marchenko, Sproul/XO (whichever looks better)
Expose: Kronwall, Ericsson, Sproul/XO

Goalie: Mrazek
Expose: Howard, Coreau

Then we pray that Vegas takes one of Abby, Helm, Kronwall, E or Howard. I chose not to expose Sheahan since he only has a year left on his contract, and he doesn't get paid too much atm. I think it is likely they take one of Abby, Helm, or Howard since there will be much better dmen available than Kronner & E. If we manage to add a dman and trade one of Tats or Nyquist then simply protect Glenny/Bert and expose one of Marchenko/Sproul/XO.

Offseason:

Assuming we trade one of Nyquist/ Tats for a dman prior to the expansion draft, and one of Abby or Helm are picked, I do the following:

1. Resign Tatar (if not traded) to around 4 mil per year (3 year max)
2. Encourage Kronwall to LTIR retire
3. Resign AA (1.5 x 2)
4. See if you can get someone to take Howard for two years @ 4mil.
5. Offer Vanek a 2 year deal at current rate or 1 year 4 mil deal.

Mantha-Larkin-Z
AA-Nielson-Tatar/Nyquist
Vanek/UFA-Helm-Frk
Bert-Glenny-Cally

Dekeyser- (Traded for Dman)
UFA-XO
Ericsson-Marchy

Mrazek
Coreau

This embraces the rebuild and helps clear out some cap space. Defense is still a mess, but hopefully we can land a good D or two in the draft, and capitalize on the glut of dmen that might be available due to the expansion draft.

 

[TatarTangle]

^ trading Nyquist or Tatar for an equivalent dman would just be another bottom pairing dman, you'd be lucky to get a second for them.

 

[lilidk]

I would have Larkin in same line with Mantha, Vanek with Zetterberg , Nielson with AA. We have good chance this year to draft #1 center , someone like Larkin with better skills .

Vanek- Zetterberg- Nyquist
Mantha-Larkin-Tatar
Abdelkator- Nielson-AA
Jurco -Gleny- Ott

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

^ trading Nyquist or Tatar for an equivalent dman would just be another bottom pairing dman, you'd be lucky to get a second for them.

tatar to the ducks for mountour(sp) and a pick would be the ideal TDL scenario

we have to protect abby, he is good enough to be on this team

and you trade sheahan at the TDL

you protect
zetts
mantha
nielsen
aa
nyquist
abby
helm
green
ouellet
sproul
mrazek

if we protect dekeyser we will lose sproul and dekeyser aint worth his contract, period.

we need to lose a "bad" contract that is a expensive multi year deal just simply for the cap space "one day"

at the TDL we trade
-vanek
-smith
-miller
-sheahan
-jurco

we do NOT trade Green as he is our best dman and will be next year as well(maybe we trade him next TDL)

 

[TatarTangle]

^ prepare to be ridiculed for hinting at Abdelkader being a good enough hockey player.

Everyone but Vanek from the tdl list is waiver fodder, sadly.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

^ prepare to be ridiculed for hinting at Abdelkader being a good enough hockey player.

Everyone but Vanek from the tdl list is waiver fodder, sadly.

I think abby provides a role we desperately need, even more so as we rebuild with youth

 

[TatarTangle]

I think abby provides a role we desperately need, even more so as we rebuild with youth

I am fortunate enough to skate with many players that, at the very least, played college. One was even the captain when he was at Stanford.

It appears, at least to me, that people who've played a high level of hockey believe Abdelkader to be a good hockey player. But what do they know?

 

[jkutswings]

^ prepare to be ridiculed for hinting at Abdelkader being a good enough hockey player.

Everyone but Vanek from the tdl list is waiver fodder, sadly.

I've never been a big fan of Abby, but I can still separate two things:

* As a contract, he represents a financially bad decision.
* As a player, I can appreciate that his style and approach to the game could be beneficial to have around, as the team (hopefully) rebuilds and leans on the kids.

So I see both sides of the coin as to whether he'd be protected in the expansion draft.

 

[TatarTangle]

I've never been a big fan of Abby, but I can still separate two things:

* As a contract, he represents a financially bad decision.
* As a player, I can appreciate that his style and approach to the game could be beneficial to have around, as the team (hopefully) rebuilds and leans on the kids.

So I see both sides of the coin as to whether he'd be protected in the expansion draft.

I agree. Can't fault him for Ken Holland's bad decision though. If your employer says they are willing to pay you $10 more an hour tomorrow your not going to turn it down.

 

[jkutswings]

I agree. Can't fault him for Ken Holland's bad decision though. If your employer says they are willing to pay you $10 more an hour tomorrow your not going to turn it down.

Yep. It's just frustrating to watch $8M in salary go to him and Helm, and only have 15 points to show for it, halfway through the season. (And Abs has a -7 to go with those 8 points in 24 games played.)

 

[19 for president]

1. I don't think Abby is a bad player, I think he is a bad contract. If Abby were on a 4 year deal, I'd be fine with it. For that matter I don't think Helm is a bad player either, but again his contract is for too long and too much money.

2. I foresee there being a surplus of dman on the market vs. forwards because of the way the expansion draft is set up. So I could see us being able to get a top 4 dman for Tats/Nyquist. Since most teams will use the 7/3/1 system, that means there are going to be some pretty good dmen exposed. Its simply easier to protect forwards, so why lose a dman for nothing when you can get a good forward for him. I don't think we are getting a Fowler type for either, but at this point we have DD as a top 4, and a bunch of bottom pairing dmen. (Not including Green, who I propose we trade). Trading Tats or Nyquist for a mid 20 something top 4 or even a prospect on the ready to enter the NHL that you think has good potential, I think sets us up better long term.

3. I do think Green is our best dman, but we aren't going anywhere next season. We will likely finish bottom 5 again, unless we figure out how to get another top 2 dman. That is the only way I think we improve significantly, and I don't see that happening. If we are going full rebuild, there is zero reason to keep Green around. I'd even potentially ask Nielson if he would like to be traded, even though again I think he is a very good player.

 

[Flowah]

we have to protect abby, he is good enough to be on this team

Seems like the wrong way to think about it.

It's not about "good enough for this team." It's a 2 step process.

1. Is the player potentially a future core member of the team?
2. If "Yes" then keep. If "No" then see what the return is. If you can get a worthwhile return, trade him. If not, keep him.

 

[HisNoodliness]

So here's my rebuild game plan, I figured I'd just post it and let you guys rip it to shreds. I'm sorry that it's so long:
The wings major needs are a young first line Center ready to make an impact by 2020-2021, and two first line defenseman ready to make an impact by 2020-2021. On top of that we need to build depth to surround these players. Our pieces that I think are valuable and young enough to keep are AA, Larkin, Mantha, Dekeyser, Nyquist/Tatar and Mrazek. We also have good prospects in Saarijarvi, Svechnikov, Hronek, and Cholowski. I wouldn't expect any of those players to be better than second line though.

First order of business is 2017 TDL: Trade Vanek for the best pick you can get (hopefully a late first). Trade Green for a late first as well (either at the TDL or after the Expansion). Choose one of Nyquist or Tatar, trade them, also hopefully for a 1st. Trade everyone else besides the keepers you can get anything of value for.

2017 Draft: We're on pace for a top 5 pick. Address one of our major needs with this pick. The lead candidates would be: Patrick, Hischier, Liljegren, Vilardi and Mittlestadt. All of these players have at least one reason why it would be beneficial to wait at least one year to play in the NHL (Hischier is the only one I'd feel comfortable starting next year). So this pick would get less than ten NHL games in 2017-2018. They will probably be more than good enough to play out of the gate but I think that rushing top 5 picks to the NHL is one of the mistakes that leads to failed rebuilds.
other picks: focus on D and C. Pick high upside guys that are perhaps further away or have holes in their game that you can perhaps fix/mitigate through development (Saarijarvi and Hronek were excellent picks and epitomize what I'd like us to do).

2017 offseason: Don't sign anyone for more than 3 seasons. Keep the prices low. Fill any holes first with prospects who are nearing NHL ready. Address any holes in the team that can't be filled with prospects. The team will be bad in 2018 so don't try to make it a good team...just make sure there is something you can ice.

2018 TDL: same deal as 2017. Trade anyone not part of the future. Get whatever picks you can

2018 Draft: Should be another top five pick. I'd love Dahlin here, but he's probably going 1st overall. Regardless we need another C or D who projects as a top line guy. Preferably let this guy take at least a season to develop before bringing him to the NHL, but it's hard to make a plan about this age group yet.

2018 offseason: see 2017 offseason

2019 TDL: same deal as 2017 and 2018. Trade away anyone not part of the future. Get picks and prospects.

2019 Draft: Hopefully also a top 5 pick. Address our last major need. It'll probably be D or C. Let this pick take a year as well if necessary.

2019 offseason: the team should be starting to reach it's final form. If there's a great FA opportunity for a player who can be a difference maker on the team for a long time, go ahead and sign them. Don't waste money on anything less than that.

2019-2020 season: Let the kids play. The 2017 pick should be an established NHL player by this year. The 2018 pick should be breaking into the league. The 2019 pick should get a cup of coffee in the league, but don't rush them if they're not ready. We've also hopefully picked up a couple of late firsts, early second round picks in 2017 and 2018; let these players start establishing themselves.

2020-2021 season: Hopefully we have have young core players at all of the important places (If not trade guys that were previously thought to be core players for picks and keep rebuilding). By the end of 2021 you hope that all of our top 5 picks are in the NHL and beginning to take on their long term roles. Make a push to finally make the playoffs. Our depth should be composed of players who didn't reach their potential and players that have stuck around (Abdelkader, Neilsen, Nyquist/Tatar, DK would be players I'd expect to be chilling on our 3rd/4th lines.)
By 2022 if all goes according to plan, the rebuild should be just about complete. Hopefully win a bunch of cups.

 

[SirloinUB]

Maybe I'm the homer here but I think people are sleeping on the returns for Vanek/Smith/Ott at the TDL.

I'd be disappointed with anything less than a 1st for Vanek.
I can see a Cole type trade for Smith. Conditional 2nd if the team makes the conference finals, otherwise a 3rd round pick.
I think Ott can net us a 3rd from a team looking for some grit but Id gladly accept a 4th or a 5th.

I also completely reject the idea of Trading Green this year. We need him next season.

 

[Flowah]

By 2022 if all goes according to plan, the rebuild should be just about complete. Hopefully win a bunch of cups.

Not even sure it should take that long with a little bit of luck. Look how quickly the Leafs turned it around. Sure they got pretty lucky with Matthews, but that's all it seems to take. That 1C or 1D, if truly legit, can make that huge difference. The gulf between Larkin and Matthews is enormous. If we suck hard enough to pick one or two of those guys up, we still have some pretty solid pieces to support them.

Though again, highly dependent on the draft and your luck via the lottery.

 

[njx9]

I also completely reject the idea of Trading Green this year. We need him next season.

... For what? Keeping the team just slightly above really bad? I'm not opposed to waiting till next year to trade him, but this team doesn't need anyone.

 

[SirloinUB]

... For what? Keeping the team just slightly above really bad? I'm not opposed to waiting till next year to trade him, but this team doesn't need anyone.

I don't want a scorched earth (or variation of) style rebuild. This season was a failure, but I'd want (and expect the team) to ice the most competitive roster possible. Under that premise it should be obvious why you keep Green.

If you're out of it at 2018 deadline, you then trade him for a 1st. I see no value in the franchise mailing it in before the season starts. Beyond my personal view, I don't think its realistic to expect the DRW to mail it in before the season starts.

The way I see it, this team, like the avs, should have a completely different attitude to rebuilding than the Yotes, Leafs, Oilers, Sabres.

1) There doesn't appear to be a generational talent you should race to the bottom for.
2) We aren't starting a rebuild from scratch like the above mentioned teams did. Theoretically, a quick turnaround is possible, but more importantly, young prospects can learn in a more sheltered roll.
3) Losing is an infectious attitude. Deciding you're going to fail without trying is a **** atmosphere to develop young players in. There should be expectations of a degree of success. If you fail, so be it. Better to try and fail than just accept being the worst, imo.

 

[njx9]

I don't want a scorched earth (or variation of) style rebuild. This season was a failure, but I'd want (and expect the team) to ice the most competitive roster possible. Under that premise it should be obvious why you keep Green.

I think it sounds like you don't think a rebuild is necessary, and that the team can and should just sign some FAs to get back to 16th place. I get not wanting to see losses, but that seems like a good way to spend a whole lot of time in non-competitive purgatory.

That said, I don't think Green's existence on the roster fundamentally changes the outlook of this team. Having him hasn't made us competitive this year, and it won't do so next year. That ship sailed when the team never got the talent to replace Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall.

 

[SirloinUB]

I think it sounds like you don't think a rebuild is necessary, and that the team can and should just sign some FAs to get back to 16th place. I get not wanting to see losses, but that seems like a good way to spend a whole lot of time in non-competitive purgatory.

That said, I don't think Green's existence on the roster fundamentally changes the outlook of this team. Having him hasn't made us competitive this year, and it won't do so next year. That ship sailed when the team never got the talent to replace Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall.

I don't think blowing it up is necessary, there is a difference.