Wes O'Neill - Opting In Or Not?

[Canadian]

I was just wondering what all of you think Wes O'Neill of the Notre Dame Fighting Irish will do? Based on what I've read, if he opts into this year's draft, he will have to forgo his NCAA eligibility. Do you guys think he will opt in or opt out of the draft? O'Neill is ranked 19th on the Central Scouting Bureau Mid-Term North American ranking. However, he is 6'4" and on The Hockey News Profile/Feature, he is said to be 215lbs. The profile said he plays a two way D-man, he has great reach and his stick is taller than his coach Dave Poulin (former NHLer). O'Neill can play the physical body if required, he can skate and he has supposedly drawn comparisons of a Jay Bouwmeester. So what do you all think?

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[Funkymoses]

well, I'm just guessing here, but O'Neill has been a top prospect for a long time and had every opportunity to go to the OHL if he wanted to. He was the #2 pick in his draft year, IIRC. He's been projected as one of the top prospects in his draft year forever, so I think he probably won't opt in. It would be pretty pointless for him to forgo the OHL for one year at Notre Dame.

 

[hockeyglove]

Good student too

If I remember correctly O'Neil fastracked his way through high school. That isn't easy to do in a tough Ontario high school curriculum. Many kids struggle just to do it in the regular 4 years. He also played Junior B while doing it so the kid seems to be pretty serious about his education. It is a tough decision though given the amount of money he would have to forgo for waiting and there is always the remote possibility of an injury. If I were his agent, I would tell him to opt in to the draft and take the money. He is already a year ahead of his peers as far as education is concerned and he can always return to school later in life.

 

[Canadian]

If I remember correctly O'Neil fastracked his way through high school. That isn't easy to do in a tough Ontario high school curriculum. Many kids struggle just to do it in the regular 4 years. He also played Junior B while doing it so the kid seems to be pretty serious about his education. It is a tough decision though given the amount of money he would have to forgo for waiting and there is always the remote possibility of an injury. If I were his agent, I would tell him to opt in to the draft and take the money. He is already a year ahead of his peers as far as education is concerned and he can always return to school later in life.

He fast tracked, are you sure? He was born in 1986, the last year for Grade 13 in Ontario was for 1984s. Meaning, the 1985, 1986, 1987..... only have to do four year's of school and under that new curriculum it's quite hard to fast track, unless of course he skipped a few grades along the way in Essex, Ontario. However, you must remember, while O'Neill was playing for the Green Bay Gamblers last season, he attended high school (Ashwaubenon High School in Wisconsin).

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

If players taken this year have to be signed under the current CBA then IMO it makes a lot of sense to opt-in while the rookie max is still as high as it is and the bonuses are allowed. Who knows what the new CBA will look like.

 

[hockeyglove]

He fast tracked, are you sure? He was born in 1986, the last year for Grade 13 in Ontario was for 1984s. Meaning, the 1985, 1986, 1987..... only have to do four year's of school and under that new curriculum it's quite hard to fast track, unless of course he skipped a few grades along the way in Essex, Ontario. However, you must remember, while O'Neill was playing for the Green Bay Gamblers last season, he attended high school (Ashwaubenon High School in Wisconsin).

The other 1986's are still in Grade 12 this year. Wes is in his first year at Notre Dame. I remember reading that he would graduate one year earlier than the rest because of taking extra courses throughout the year and summer. Dedicated kid!

 

[Doomsday Device]

The other 1986's are still in Grade 12 this year. Wes is in his first year at Notre Dame. I remember reading that he would graduate one year earlier than the rest because of taking extra courses throughout the year and summer. Dedicated kid!

I doubt this, since O'Neill was listed as being in grade 11 when he was selected in the 2002 OHL Draft, unless he accelerated his schooling previous to that, which would be pretty uncommon.

 

[Vincent_TheGreat]

No you can be drafted, but as soon as you sign a contract is when you lose your eligibility. O'Neill will go this year, but given how the Irish are a greatly improving team I can't see him leaving until after his Junior year, he may even stay all 4 years and get his degree. Most of the football players stay there Senior years even if there first round material because they want the degree, It's the same with ND hockey.

 

[Goldy]

Vincent, you are wrong. If O'Neil opts in, the NCAA interprets that as professional intent, and he is immediately ineligible.

 

[shveik]

Vincent, you are wrong. If O'Neil opts in, the NCAA interprets that as professional intent, and he is immediately ineligible.

Then how come Vanek, Jessiman, Parise, Mark Stuart and the rest of the NCAA players drafted in 2003 (minus Kesler) are still playing for their college teams?

AFAIK NCAA changed the eligibility rules before the last draft. That's why so many college players could opt in, which was one of the reasons 2003 draft was considered to be so deep.

 

[Fedz]

I truly hope he does opt in. The canucks have gone to universities the past two season. I truly like what I see. O'Neill seems like the kind of dman, the canucks could use in their system. I hope he opts in. One question, if he does, where do you think he'll go? 5-10, 10-15, 15-20?

 

[AJ1982]

O'Neill can NOT opt in AND maintain his NCAA elgibility. It is for the same inane reason that Alvaro Montoya could not opt into the draft last year. If you enter the NCAA early you can not opt into the draft.

"Players who are 18 (as of Sept. 15, 2004) must opt into the draft, but for those players already in the NCAA, doing so means giving up their remaining eligibility. On the other hand, 18-year olds that will be coming to college next fall can opt in without losing eligibility."

The wording is a bit confusing but it says that those players who are 18 by that point have to opt into the draft if they want to be drafted. If a player is already in the NCAA when he opts in he loses eligibility, if he is junior or high school still he can opt in with nor problem. A silly silly rule.

This is from this recent article on uscho online.

http://www.uscollegehockey.com/news/2004/01/15_007704.php

 

[Vincent_TheGreat]

Then how come Vanek, Jessiman, Parise, Mark Stuart and the rest of the NCAA players drafted in 2003 (minus Kesler) are still playing for their college teams?

AFAIK NCAA changed the eligibility rules before the last draft. That's why so many college players could opt in, which was one of the reasons 2003 draft was considered to be so deep.

Thank you, at least somebody else actually has knowledge on NCAA hockey.

 

[shveik]

O'Neill can NOT opt in AND maintain his NCAA elgibility. It is for the same inane reason that Alvaro Montoya could not opt into the draft last year. If you enter the NCAA early you can not opt into the draft.

"Players who are 18 (as of Sept. 15, 2004) must opt into the draft, but for those players already in the NCAA, doing so means giving up their remaining eligibility. On the other hand, 18-year olds that will be coming to college next fall can opt in without losing eligibility."

The wording is a bit confusing but it says that those players who are 18 by that point have to opt into the draft if they want to be drafted. If a player is already in the NCAA when he opts in he loses eligibility, if he is junior or high school still he can opt in with nor problem. A silly silly rule.

This is from this recent article on uscho online.

http://www.uscollegehockey.com/news/2004/01/15_007704.php

The article you quoted is really vague on this issue. As far as I can tell from the NCAA website and the rules listed there, you are right. Looks like no NCAA player can opt in without losing college eligibility. They can only be drafted in the last year of their NHL draft eligibility, since they would not have to "opt in" then.

 

[Blue Bullet]

The article you quoted is really vague on this issue. As far as I can tell from the NCAA website and the rules listed there, you are right. Looks like no NCAA player can opt in without losing college eligibility. They can only be drafted in the last year of their NHL draft eligibility, since they would not have to "opt in" then.

So that means that AJ Thelen and Adam Pineault can't opt in either.

 

[Canadian]

Then how come Vanek, Jessiman, Parise, Mark Stuart and the rest of the NCAA players drafted in 2003 (minus Kesler) are still playing for their college teams?

AFAIK NCAA changed the eligibility rules before the last draft. That's why so many college players could opt in, which was one of the reasons 2003 draft was considered to be so deep.

I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with age. Parise and Vanek were born in 1984, and their initial draft year was suppose to be in 2002 NHL Entry Draft along with Rick Nash and the bunch. Parise and Vanek would of been 18 when they were eligible to enter the draft. However, Parise and Vanek didn't enter the draft because they would lose eligibility to attend their respective university/college, as well they weren't ready. While, if O'Neill were to enter the draft this year, he would be 18 as well, losing eligibility would apply. I know my explanation doesn't make sense, but it has something to do with age and the year a player commits to a NCAA team. However, if they have changed the rules, forget everything that I just mentioned.

 

[Vincent_TheGreat]

I don't know how many of you guys actually follow NCAA hockey, Obviously not to many. Because if you view the sites I have listed below its a sample of players already drafted still playing NCAA hockey. You burn your Eligibility when you sign the dotted line, not wheb you enter the draft. Here;

ND - Rob Globke(selected 2002 by FLA) leads the team in scoring 21gp-11g-11a-22pts. http://und.ocsn.com/sports/m-hockey/mtt/globke_rob00.html

others
-Patrick Eaves(selected 2003 by OTT) Drafted last year is currently in his 'So' year.

-Thomas Vanek(U of Minnesota, Drafter 2003) currently 'So' Leads team in points with 30 in 22 games.

-Hugh Jessiman(Dartmouth, Drafted 2003) currently 'So' tied for team lead with 22 points in 17 games.

-Zach Parise(North Dakota, Drafted 2002) Probably NCAA hockeys best player, if you didn't know he was drafted and still playing your not following NCAA hockey at all, they guy is on the most exciting line in the NCAA.

-Mark Stuart(Colorado College, Drafted 2003) 5 points in 20 games (click on the link and look at the guys with the names of there drafted teams in the brackets http://www.collegehockeystats.com/teamstats/cc_m)

-Eric Nystrom(Michigan, Drafted 2002) 13 points in 22 games

-Jim Slater(Michigan State, Drafted 2002) Leads team with 31 points in 26 games

How many more guys do I have to name before you guys admit your wrong and don't burn your eligibility entering the NHL draft.

 

[Vincent_TheGreat]

I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with age. Parise and Vanek were born in 1984, and their initial draft year was suppose to be in 2002 NHL Entry Draft along with Rick Nash and the bunch. Parise and Vanek would of been 18 when they were eligible to enter the draft. However, Parise and Vanek didn't enter the draft because they would lose eligibility to attend their respective university/college, as well they weren't ready. While, if O'Neill were to enter the draft this year, he would be 18 as well, losing eligibility would apply. I know my explanation doesn't make sense, but it has something to do with age and the year a player commits to a NCAA team. However, if they have changed the rules, forget everything that I just mentioned.

your thinking about being 18, like Parise playing in the USHS with Shattuck. In that case you can not enter the draft before your FR year of NCAA hockey and be eligible to play. Thats why Parise waited until his first year of NCAA hockey to declare just like O'Neill is declaring in his 1st year, so he remains eligible. Its confusing, but all you need to know is that if he is playing NCAA hockey he can be drafted and still play NCAA, if he declares before his first NCAA season, his eligibility is burned.

 

[John E. Ringo]

When discussing anything involving the NCAA, especially regarding ice hockey it seems, one cannot apply normal logic. It simply does not exist.

I don't believe anyone said you "burn" your NCAA eligibility if you are drafted into the NHL. Obviously you do not, as witnessed by the player list VTG posted. However, until last year, any NCAA player in his first year of draft eligibility could not opt into the draft without surrendering his collegiate (amateur) status. That is why Rick DiPietro had to leave college when he opted into the NHL Draft after his first season at BU. This rule also applied to players at the Tier 2, Junior B, prep school or high school levels. In other words, anyone who wanted to play NCAA hockey could not be drafted as an 18-year old. They would automatically be eligible for the next draft, as 19-year olds.

The NCAA constantly revisits this rule and has made some alterations. As of last season the NCAA stated 18-year old incoming players (those who had signed letters of intent to play at a school in subsequent years) could opt into the NHL Draft without affecting their collegiate eligibility. That is why last year's draft had so many quality college and pre-college players taken (Suter et. al from the 1985 birth years along with the 84s from the season before (Parise, Vanek, etc) who could not opt in the year before without being ineligible).

Unfortunately, the NCAA also ruled that if you were already enrolled and playing at a university you could not opt in without being ruled ineligible (see Al Montoya, who fast-tracked high school and enrolled at Michigan as a 17-year old and David Booth, a late '84 at MSU).

That is why players such as AJ Thelen, Wes O'Neill, Adam Pineault, TJ Hensick and Drew Stafford (all first-time NHL Draft eligible already enrolled and playing NCAA hockey) would forfeit their remaining three seasons of college if they were to opt in this year, but other 86s and late 85s like Chris Bourque, Victor Oreskovich and Cory Schneider (playing prep or Tier 2), to name a few, will be taken in this year's draft without affecting them collegiately.

I know this is confusing but hey, it's the NCAA. They like it that way.

 

[West]

How many more guys do I have to name before you guys admit your wrong and don't burn your eligibility entering the NHL draft.

I believe that the rule is 18 year olds have to opt into the draft and 19 year olds are automatically opted in (actually centers around Sept 16th date I beleive). All the players that you mentioned just waited until they were automatically opt'ed in. They have some weird ruling that if you havn't comitted to a college you can opt in but if you have you can't.

Just for the record it's very rare for a College player to opt into the draft. Don't expect any of them to.

 

[AJ1982]

I thought I stated it clearly enough, but apparently not. I'll see if I can't find the article that explained the rule changes from last year.

Here's some articles

The DiPietro case which was before rule changes imposed last year.

http://www.uscho.com/news/2000/05/02_001351.php

This is quote I found from the following article... "Eight of the 18 collegians in the (CSB) rankings, including each of the top four, were born after Sept. 15, 1985, meaning that they would have to "opt-in" to next summer's draft in order to be selected. Players who have already enrolled in school forfeit their NCAA eligibility if they opt in to the draft (junior players, on the other hand, can opt in and retain their eligibility)."

http://www.insidecollegehockey.com/7Archives/News/css_0220.htm

The way I understand it is, if you are already in the NCAA and you have to opt into the draft you will be ineligible if you chose to opt in. If you are outside the NCAA you can opt in and still come to college hockey so long as you do not spoil your eligibility in some other way (ie. receiving money, playing major junior etc.).

Does this help??

 

[Jim Bob]

I believe that the rule is 18 year olds have to opt into the draft and 19 year olds are automatically opted in (actually centers around Sept 16th date I beleive). All the players that you mentioned just waited until they were automatically opt'ed in. They have some weird ruling that if you havn't comitted to a college you can opt in but if you have you can't.

Just for the record it's very rare for a College player to opt into the draft. Don't expect any of them to.

Here is how wacky the NCAA is.

If you are 18yo and still playing in say the USHL or for the USNTDP you can opt into the draft and maintain your NCAA eligibility (like say Ryan Suter last year).

If you are 18yo and playing in the NCAA, then you forego your remaining eligibility if you opt into the draft (see Rick Dipietro having to leave BU after his freshman season because opted into the draft as an 18yo).

If you are 19yo and playing in the NCAA, then you are automatically entered into the draft and you do not lose your eligibility until you either sign with an agent or the team that drafted you (see Vanek, Jessiman, etc last year).

If that makes any sense to you, then call up Miles Brand and see if the NCAA has any job openings.

 

[Jim Bob]

your thinking about being 18, like Parise playing in the USHS with Shattuck. In that case you can not enter the draft before your FR year of NCAA hockey and be eligible to play. Thats why Parise waited until his first year of NCAA hockey to declare just like O'Neill is declaring in his 1st year, so he remains eligible. Its confusing, but all you need to know is that if he is playing NCAA hockey he can be drafted and still play NCAA, if he declares before his first NCAA season, his eligibility is burned.

The NCAA changed that rule last season.

18yo can opt into the draft and maintain their eligibility, but only if they aren't already playing college hockey.

That's why players like Ryan Suter and Brian Boyle were in last year's draft.

 

[AJ1982]

The NCAA changed that rule last season.

18yo can opt into the draft and maintain their eligibility, but only if they aren't already playing college hockey.

That's why players like Ryan Suter and Brian Boyle were in last year's draft.

You know, I have to wonder if players could legally challenge this rule.

 

[Jim Bob]

You know, I have to wonder if players could legally challenge this rule.

I don't know.

I think it would be hard to win on any account just because the NCAA can say that there are other options if you don't meet their eligibility criteria.

But, I think it would make a lot more sense if they just took the whole opting in thing out of the equation and just left it as you lose your eligibility if you sign with an agent or a pro team.

But when has the NCAA ever made sense with regards to things like this?