Post-Game Talk: We're startin' to come together

[Heaton]

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I believe there is a bias. Pulkkinen, Franzen, Anderrson etc. Catch way more flack then the home-grown boys like Miller, Glendening, Larkin. Larkin misses a wide open net, nobody says a word. Pulkkinen misses they complain. Anderrson doesn't score, yet plays a good defensive game. Anderrson stinks.
Miller doesn't score, yet plays a good defensive game. Miller is a defensive specialist.
It's Don Cherry type thinking. They see what they what they want to see.
Do you really believe if Pulkkinen was from Michigan instead of Finland he would be getting the criticism he does?
I don't.

Nah, I don't see any of that, I think that's pretty selective reading.

I think Andersson and Glendening get way more flak than Pulkkinen. Pulkkinen is a guy that I wasn't convinced would be an NHL player, I'm still not sure what his ceiling is, but he's been solid this year.

Larkin gets a pass on some things because he does so many other things well, that's how this thing works.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

Nah, I don't see any of that, I think that's pretty selective reading.

I think Andersson and Glendening get way more flak than Pulkkinen. Pulkkinen is a guy that I wasn't convinced would be an NHL player, I'm still not sure what his ceiling is, but he's been solid this year.

Larkin gets a pass on some things because he does so many other things well, that's how this thing works.

I see it all the time. I don't think it's selective reading. If Pulkkinen had played at U-M, would he be getting all this nit picky criticism.
That's how this thing works for many on hfboards. The European players are judge more harshly than the Michigan born players. Not by everyone on here. But by too many.

 

[Classicnamesup]

I see it all the time. I don't think it's selective reading. If Pulkkinen had played at U-M, would he be getting all this nit picky criticism.
That's how this thing works for many on hfboards. The European players are judge more harshly than the Michigan born players. Not by everyone on here. But by too many.

I see Abby taking a fair bit of criticism. DK takes a bit. Glen has also taken a fair bit this year after an excellent last year.

I have a hard time taking anybody seriously who believes that this fanbase, of all fanbases, is biased against Euros. This is and has been for years a very Euro heavy team

 

[Obe2kenobe]

I see Abby taking a fair bit of criticism. DK takes a bit. Glen has also taken a fair bit this year after an excellent last year.

I have a hard time taking anybody seriously who believes that this fanbase, of all fanbases, is biased against Euros. This is and has been for years a very Euro heavy team

They take there share of critiicism sure. But the Europeans take way more. IMO

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

They take there share of critiicism sure. But the Europeans take way more. IMO

Who gets criticized more on this team than Brendan Smith & Jimmy Howard....

Big E might be close but he is still losing. Kindl who is European is also in the discussion, but you have two prominent NA guys that have been the whipping boys for several years now. I would also argue I find nothing out of bounds with the criticism that Smith and Kindl get at this point in time, they have deserved it with their continued inconsistent play.

DK should be getting a lot more than he is thus far in the season. He has been every bit as bad as the guys that take a lot of heat on the backend. That is the one protected hometown boy that I can see. Abdelkader, Miller and Glendening have all spent time on the list of things people complain about.

 

[sarcastro]

Nah, I don't see any of that, I think that's pretty selective reading.

I think Andersson and Glendening get way more flak than Pulkkinen. Pulkkinen is a guy that I wasn't convinced would be an NHL player, I'm still not sure what his ceiling is, but he's been solid this year.

Larkin gets a pass on some things because he does so many other things well, that's how this thing works.

I gave Pulky some grief before the season because I wasn't convinced he could overcome his lack of speed. He seems to be doing fine on that front, so I have no current complaints. None of that has anything to do with the fact that he's Finnish.

I continue to give Andersson grief because he is a replacement level player who excels at nothing and doesn't even do most things adequately. Slow, doesn't hit, has no puck skills, does not dig pucks out of corners or establish net front, not great on faceoffs, etc. Again, has nothing to do with his nationality.

I favored Ferraro because he shoots right and has speed, which at least allows him to do some things that guys like Andersson can't. He's not a great player either though. And again, nothing to do with his nationality.

I can't speak for others on the subject however.

 

[DanZ]

They take there share of critiicism sure. But the Europeans take way more. IMO

Your way off base here. Abby got ripped apart after that contract extension. Smith gets **** on all the time. You're really just making stuff up. Larkin gets a pass on some things because he's our 2nd best forward this season as a 19 year old and has a well rounded game. Pulkkinen has some obvious holes in his game. Bad comparison.

 

[Pavels Dog]

4th best shooting percentage on the team.

And how is sh% affected by shots that are blocked or go wide? He has the most missed shots on the team, by far more more than anyone except Larkin. And Larkin has a lot more shots that actually hit the net.

Don't bother to argue with them. There are a contingent of DRW fans all from a particular country for some strange reason that think he is ****. Doesn't matter what he does it is never good enough. Might as well just let it ride. Ain't gonna change their beliefs.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

Who gets criticized more on this team than Brendan Smith & Jimmy Howard....

Big E might be close but he is still losing. Kindl who is European is also in the discussion, but you have two prominent NA guys that have been the whipping boys for several years now. I would also argue I find nothing out of bounds with the criticism that Smith and Kindl get at this point in time, they have deserved it with their continued inconsistent play.

DK should be getting a lot more than he is thus far in the season. He has been every bit as bad as the guys that take a lot of heat on the backend. That is the one protected hometown boy that I can see. Abdelkader, Miller and Glendening have all spent time on the list of things people complain about.

You mention Dekyser deserves more criticism but doesn't get it. Yet Kindl gets ripped time after time. That's what I'm talking about. Miller gets complaints, but very few. I questioned why he isn't scratched once in a while last year. And many responded saying how bad of a idea that was. Anderrson plays a similar defensive game, and he gets no respect.
I'm not saying that there isn't complaints about North Americans. Sure Smith get's his share and Howard as well. But when a player like Pulkkinen get's criticism for not having a well rounded game.
And Miller and Glendening don't, or rarely do. It seems like favoritism to me.

 

[Bench]

You mention Dekyser deserves more criticism but doesn't get it. Yet Kindl gets ripped time after time. That's what I'm talking about. Miller gets complaints, but very few. I questioned why he isn't scratched once in a while last year. And many responded saying how bad of a idea that was. Anderrson plays a similar defensive game, and he gets no respect.
I'm not saying that there isn't complaints about North Americans. Sure Smith get's his share and Howard as well. But when a player like Pulkkinen get's criticism for not having a well rounded game.
And Miller and Glendening don't, or rarely do. It seems like favoritism to me.

It wasn't that long ago people on this forum would argue about Swedish favoritism. So it's shifted to North American now?

You're looking for a more complex answer for a very simple solution. Kindl gets dumped on because he's been bad for years and years. DeKeyser gets the benefit of the doubt because he's traditionally been better. It's really that simple. Pulkkinen is getting hammered because he gives the puck away a lot. Miller avoids most ire because he doesn't play much and is generally a give the body PKer, who would just be replaced by a guy just like him.

Easily the most hyped player on this team outside of Larkin is Mrazek, a European. Before that Nyquist. And the forum was thrilled to draft a Russian this year instead of a "safe" Norther American pick. And this team has more fans of Swedes and Europeans in general than most franchises over the years, dating all the way back to the Russian Five.

Quite frankly, I think we have, traditionally, the least Don Cherry fanbase in the NHL, so I'm not getting the complaints.

 

[Syckle78]

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I believe there is a bias. Pulkkinen, Franzen, Anderrson etc. Catch way more flack then the home-grown boys like Miller, Glendening, Larkin. Larkin misses a wide open net, nobody says a word. Pulkkinen misses they complain. Anderrson doesn't score, yet plays a good defensive game. Anderrson stinks.
Miller doesn't score, yet plays a good defensive game. Miller is a defensive specialist.
It's Don Cherry type thinking. They see what they what they want to see.
Do you really believe if Pulkkinen was from Michigan instead of Finland he would be getting the criticism he does?
I don't.

This is ridiculous. This is the last fan base that would be biased against European players. Glendening has been getting crapped on plenty this year. Abby definitely gets his share. Look at how the goalies are treated. You basically just cherry picked some examples to try to prove a rule and ignored some pretty obvious examples to the contrary.

 

[The Zermanator]

You mention Dekyser deserves more criticism but doesn't get it. Yet Kindl gets ripped time after time. That's what I'm talking about. Miller gets complaints, but very few. I questioned why he isn't scratched once in a while last year. And many responded saying how bad of a idea that was. Anderrson plays a similar defensive game, and he gets no respect.
I'm not saying that there isn't complaints about North Americans. Sure Smith get's his share and Howard as well. But when a player like Pulkkinen get's criticism for not having a well rounded game.
And Miller and Glendening don't, or rarely do. It seems like favoritism to me.

I'm not gonna bother addressing all the specific players, others have already done that. But the mere suggestion that, of all teams, the Red Wings (or its fans) have some kind of anti-European bias is ludicrous. Plenty of the most beloved players in the new millennium have been European.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Kronwall, Hasek, etc.

Franzen got flak because he was a streaky scorer at times. Goes with the territory. Those guys are beloved when they score, scorned when they aren't. Has nothing to do with nationality.

As far as DeKeyser vs. Kindl. Expect DK to get more heat if he doesn't improve soon. He gets more benefit of the doubt because he's tended to be quite good ever since he first pulled on the Winged Wheel. Kindl had one decent season, then got a much longer deal than he should have and has mostly sucked since. Again, nothing to do with nationality.


EDIT: And Bench beats me to 90% of my points.

 

[Bench]

This is the last fan base that would be biased against European players.

My thoughts exactly. We've all been weened on the legends of Russians and Swedes. Our goalie saviors from the Czech Republic.

 

[Bench]

Franzen got flak because he was a streaky scorer at times. Goes with the territory. Those guys are beloved when they score, scorned when they aren't. Has nothing to do with nationality.

Also, big contract. Look at the Abdelkader thread after his new deal.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

This is ridiculous. This is the last fan base that would be biased against European players. Glendening has been getting crapped on plenty this year. Abby definitely gets his share. Look at how the goalies are treated. You basically just cherry picked some examples to try to prove a rule and ignored some pretty obvious examples to the contrary.

No, the entire fan base isn't. But there are some. And 1 is too many. And the Michigan born players get preferential treatment. By some posters. Not all.

 

[Syckle78]

I'm not gonna bother addressing all the specific players, others have already done that. But the mere suggestion that, of all teams, the Red Wings (or its fans) have some kind of anti-European bias is ludicrous. Plenty of the most beloved players in the new millennium have been European.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Kronwall, Hasek, etc.

Franzen got flak because he was a streaky scorer at times. Goes with the territory. Those guys are beloved when they score, scorned when they aren't. Has nothing to do with nationality.

As far as DeKeyser vs. Kindl. Expect DK to get more heat if he doesn't improve soon. He gets more benefit of the doubt because he's tended to be quite good ever since he first pulled on the Winged Wheel. Kindl had one decent season, then got a much longer deal than he should have and has mostly sucked since. Again, nothing to do with nationality.


EDIT: And Bench beats me to 90% of my points.

Btw it didn't even start in the new millennium. Even before the Russian 5 there was klima whom fans loved. The whole notion is silly.

Also not sure how popular Johan garpenlov was but he was one of my favorites. Thought he had a cool name and was a relatively high.pick people were excited about. Unfortunately he never put it all together.

 

[Syckle78]

No, the entire fan base isn't. But there are some. And 1 is too many. And the Michigan born players get preferential treatment. By some posters. Not all.

Wait so now your basis is some or one? Which is it? What are you even trying to get at? Michigan born players probably will but that's nothing to do with European bias any home town talent is going to get extra love until they suck and then they will get obliterated. It's that way in every single sport here.

 

[DanZ]

No, the entire fan base isn't. But there are some. And 1 is too many. And the Michigan born players get preferential treatment. By some posters. Not all.

You're making baseless accusations. I can also say that some European posters give European players preferential treatment... It is a useless statement to make because you're literally just stating baseless speculation.

 

[Eggberto]

I have a confession... I'm from the same city as Abdelkader so I'm pretty fond of him. Probably give him some preferential treatment here or there. For instance I don't necessarily like his new contract, but I also think it's okay. Could've been way worse that's for sure.

 

[Bushay]

The only thing I could possibly think of would be to check the Red Wings reddit page. Maybe they have a link to something. Most anything that will have highlights of a game will have goals and that's pretty much it.

http://www.dtmts.com/#

 

[Mantha Poodoo]

And how is sh% affected by shots that are blocked or go wide? He has the most missed shots on the team, by far more more than anyone except Larkin. And Larkin has a lot more shots that actually hit the net.

Know who else has more shots per minute than anyone else on his team and by far leads his team in missed shots?

Ovy.

And while I'm certainly not equating them in terms of skill, they're both "shoot bombs from everywhere and especially the tops of the circles" types of wingers. A crapton of missed shots is part of this type of shooter. The important part is when they're zeroed in on the net, they're going in ~13% of the time right now. This is good, and it's given him a good goalscoring pace. He also takes a ton of slappers, which are high miss chance shots. He's tied for first on the team with 12. The next 5 players on the list are dmen. The next forward? Zetterberg, with 5. How many of his missed shots are slappers?

The fact that he's even able to shoot the puck so much is indicative that he and/or his linemates are doing a good job of gaining/retaining possession of the puck while he's on the ice. The fact that he leads the team in takeaways while possessing a very modest number of giveaways is indicative that he's certainly part of these good possession numbers.

If nothing else, this is certainly more telling than the flawed concept of an eye test with limited constraint camera angles and inevitable fan/opinion bias, regardless of the actual nature of that bias as discussed above (I don't have a horse in that race FWIW). I'm just as biased as any others of you, I've just learned to rely on numbers to help either reinforce or rethink opinions. In this case, I'm rethinking my opinion on Pulkinnen as a possession player.

In any case, Pulkinnen gives us something we haven't had in quite a while: A true shoot first and shoot often type of forward. By all means, criticize him where criticism is due, but for the love of all that is good, as long as it's working (which it is), can we at least try to appreciate his shooting more? Blash obviously knows how to use him, and the result is that Pulk leads the team in G/60, even more than our mutual mancrush Larkin.

 

[Bench]

Know who else has more shots per minute than anyone else on his team and by far leads his team in missed shots?

Ovy.

I'm a fan of this post.

Pulkk Hogan is a right-handed trigger man that this team hasn't had for quite some time. And it looks like Blashill is slotting him into limited minutes where he can get a chance to use his best weapon.

 

[Mantha Poodoo]

I'm a fan of this post.

Pulkk Hogan is a right-handed trigger man that this team hasn't had for quite some time. And it looks like Blashill is slotting him into limited minutes where he can get a chance to use his best weapon.

Indeed. Not only is it working, which is the most important thing to the team, it's also the best way to let Pulk work in his best talent at the NHL level.

Want to have some fun? Have a look at this list sort:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...&season=20152016&gameType=2&aggregate=0&pos=S

Aside from Johnny Malkin and and Eric Nystrom, who both have half the sample size and an unsustainable shooting %, that is an impressive list of talent above and around Pulk (and an impressive position to begin with).

(Edit: Sort it by G/60).

 

[Henkka]

My god... is here really some hate growing against a shoot-first right-handed player?

Good post from Mantha poodoo. Stamkos and Ovechkin shoot most wide in the league (because they hunt those top freaking corners and not like hitting the goalie torso). Thats how "bad" shooters they are. Hate to have them on my team. :

 

[Some Random Guy]

Indeed. Not only is it working, which is the most important thing to the team, it's also the best way to let Pulk work in his best talent at the NHL level.

Want to have some fun? Have a look at this list sort:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...&season=20152016&gameType=2&aggregate=0&pos=S

Aside from Johnny Malkin and and Eric Nystrom, who both have half the sample size and an unsustainable shooting %, that is an impressive list of talent above and around Pulk (and an impressive position to begin with).

I'm a fan of your post as well. Our fanbase is so bipolar that it's almost literally insane. I think our HHoF teams have kind of skewed everyones perceptions on a lot of things.

We complain about people not shooting enough or not shooting with a right-handed shot. We finally have a shoot first and ask questions later right-handed shot we still complain.

My god... is here really some hate growing against a shoot-first right-handed player?

Good post from Mantha poodoo. Stamkos and Ovechkin shoot most wide in the league (because they hunt those top freaking corners and not like hitting the goalie torso). Thats how "bad" shooters they are. Hate to have them on my team. :

Heh. Seems like you beat me to it, Henkka.