Post-Game Talk: We have no Issues with Quick... Jones on the Other Hand.. 2-0 Leafs Lose

[Swayze*]

Like? They didn't sign Richards or Carter to those deals. Doughty signed for an AAV of $7 million which wasn't exactly a hometown discount. They gave Quick an AAV of $5.8 million and they recently re-signed Gaborik to a deal with an AAV of $4.875 million which isn't exactly a hometown discount either. In a physical sport like hockey where one injury can ruin your entire career, players take the most money more often than not. Parise, Suter, Kovalchuk, Toews and Kane all did it.

I've been offered a 12 pack of Blue Light just to skate with a beer league team for a season.

You think I turned that down?

Hell no

 

[King85Kong]

People don't throw away an extra 15 to 20 million dollars no matter how much they love their team.

I don't believe the NHLPA looks to highly on that either.

 

[HockeyCA]

Like? They didn't sign Richards or Carter to those deals. Doughty signed for an AAV of $7 million which wasn't exactly a hometown discount. They gave Quick an AAV of $5.8 million and they recently re-signed Gaborik to a deal with an AAV of $4.875 million which isn't exactly a hometown discount either. In a physical sport like hockey where one injury can ruin your entire career, players take the most money more often than not. Parise, Suter, Kovalchuk, Toews and Kane all did it.

Quick's annual contract value places him outside the top 5... Doughty annual contract value places him outside the top 5... Dustin Brown is making 3.1 million a season (effectively the same as Robidas and almost half of Clarkson)... Williams is making 3.6 million a season... Gaborik is making under 5 million a season (less than Lupul)... Voynov, Muzzin, Martinez all around 4 million a season... Trevor Lewis (Edit-- USA Olympic Camp Invitee) makes about the same as Daniel Winnik.

So yes, I would say their cap management/contract negotiation has been pretty terrific.. I didn't include Carter, another great contract, for obvious reasons.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Quick's annual contract value places him outside the top 5... Doughty annual contract value places him outside the top 5... Dustin Brown is making 3.1 million a season (effectively the same as Robidas and almost half of Clarkson)... Williams is making 3.6 million a season... Gaborik is making under 5 million a season (less than Lupul)... Voynov, Muzzin, Martinez all around 4 million a season... Trevor Lewis (a US Olympian) makes about the same as Daniel Winnik.

So yes, I would say their cap management/contract negotiation has been pretty terrific.. I didn't include Carter, another great contract, for obvious reasons.

When it was signed? You think if Doughty was to sign a new deal today, he would take less than top 5 money? LOL.

 

[HockeyCA]

When it was signed? You think if Doughty was to sign a new deal today, he would take less than top 5 money? LOL.

He's under contract until around 2020... Foresight is also a part of this discussion. Right?

 

[The Blue Devil]

Quick's annual contract value places him outside the top 5... Doughty annual contract value places him outside the top 5... Dustin Brown is making 3.1 million a season (effectively the same as Robidas and almost half of Clarkson)... Williams is making 3.6 million a season... Gaborik is making under 5 million a season (less than Lupul)... Voynov, Muzzin, Martinez all around 4 million a season... Trevor Lewis (Edit-- USA Olympic Camp Invitee) makes about the same as Daniel Winnik.

So yes, I would say their cap management/contract negotiation has been pretty terrific.. I didn't include Carter, another great contract, for obvious reasons.

Because he wasn't even signed by them?

 

[Bluejaysfan*]

I've been offered a 12 pack of Blue Light just to skate with a beer league team for a season.

You think I turned that down?

Hell no

What the **** does that have to do with my post...

 

[LeafsNation149]

Gardiner played amazingly but hardly anyone has mentioned that i really hope Gardiner doesnt get traded so I can slowly watch Fake Leafs fans that want Gardiner gone for a 5th round and that his contract sucks come back to Gardiners side calling him the Norris trophy winner

 

[Gary Nylund]

He's under contract until around 2020... Foresight is also a part of this discussion. Right?

It was a theoretical question (which you don't want to answer, OK fine - I can see it doesn't support your argument).

 

[Bluejaysfan*]

Quick's annual contract value places him outside the top 5... Doughty annual contract value places him outside the top 5... Dustin Brown is making 3.1 million a season (effectively the same as Robidas and almost half of Clarkson)... Williams is making 3.6 million a season... Gaborik is making under 5 million a season (less than Lupul)... Voynov, Muzzin, Martinez all around 4 million a season... Trevor Lewis (Edit-- USA Olympic Camp Invitee) makes about the same as Daniel Winnik.

So yes, I would say their cap management/contract negotiation has been pretty terrific.. I didn't include Carter, another great contract, for obvious reasons.

Wrong, Brown's cap hit is $5.875

Doughty signed that contract a few years ago...of course with league inflation he slide out of the top 5 for $ made my D-men.

Quick signed a long-term contract that shortened his AAV.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Wrong, Brown's cap hit is $5.875

Doughty signed that contract a few years ago...of course with league inflation he slide out of the top 5 for $ made my D-men.

Quick signed a long-term contract that shortened his AAV.

Exactly. Seriously, I'm curious to know if there is even one star player that has signed a contract that is clearly less than market value? And I'm not talking about guys who sign 8 year contracts that seem like good bang for the buck 5 years down the line. Obviously when you sign a long-term deal you trade future potential getting guaranteed money in return and Doughty surely had the option of signing for 3-4 years only and getting more later - funny how nobody seems to want to do that.

 

[Schennanigans]

We lost but I'm happy with how they played. So far I like the two of three games under the new coach.

 

[HockeyCA]

Wrong, Brown's cap hit is $5.875

Doughty signed that contract a few years ago...of course with league inflation he slide out of the top 5 for $ made my D-men.

Quick signed a long-term contract that shortened his AAV.

Right, Browns cap hit is indeed 5.8. His last contract was 3.1, which was still under market value at the time he signed it, but your point stands.

The point is, the Kings sign players they currently control to long term deals at under market AAV's. Doughty, Quick, Voynov, etc. Not sure what is so difficult to grasp there. Is Kessels contract under market? I would say no. Phaneuf? Nope. Lupul? Maybe about right, certainly not under market. Gardner? Is he the same player as a Voynov or Muzzin? Certainly not Voynov, maybe Muzzin.. List goes on.

Seems the Leafs have failed to utilize contract leverage when it was there. That really was my overall point. That, and the Kings seem to do a better job than most of finding deals that seem to hit either below market value or hit the sweet spot.

 

[HockeyCA]

It was a theoretical question (which you don't want to answer, OK fine - I can see it doesn't support your argument).

What are you looking for? Yes, he was an RFA when he signed it. Would he command more on the open market today? Yes, he would. Is he on the open market today? No, he is under contract, until 2019-2020.

 

[happyaccident]

Exactly - but like I said, maybe wait 20 games, by then we can really do a good comparison! For now, I will enjoy the better defensive play.

Could Horachek have possibly been brought in at a worse time for him? Two hugely streaking Eastern teams and the Western trip from hell.
And yet people complain because the new coach is 1-2? Or whatever it will be after this trip.
The schedule is easier after this trip and he should be given an adjustment period playing a new (and very different) system and all. That said, the immediate defensive improvement is a total indictment on Fatso and on Shanahan for keeping him around that long. I hope that's a lesson to Shanny, a flat tire is a flat tire no matter how long you stare at it.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

The key here is that Kessel and Phaneuf combined have higher cap hit >> than Kopitar and Doughty.

If Kopitar and Doughty have more talent (which isn't being disputed) and cost less then its a advantage that shows up somewhere and that is the win loss record as one.

Kopitar + Doughty (Kings top players) outplayed Kessel and Phaneuf (Leafs top players) and Kings won the game.

Edit: Okay, this was already discussed to death, nevermind.

Both Kopitar and Doughty are on RFA deals that are way bigger than any RFA deals Leafs have handed out (fair enough- they're better.) They will pass Phil and Dion (probably by a lot in Doughty's case) when they sign UFA deals.

Can't even be compared to each other.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

Strange how Anaheim, when Carlyle coached them, was being outshot at the same ratio that Toronto was, when Carlyle coached them.

There was lots of effort before. Wasted effort. But still effort.

Now the effort is channeled effectively.

Corsi was around 50% for most of his stay there.

In the last couple seasons (he was there for nearly a decade) it went down, not really that surprising: Bad Possession = Team Playing Bad = Coach Fired.

He's gone. He's done. Do we need to hear every game about what a horrible coach he was? Kind of cuts into the Burke Debate time...

 

[Mess]

Both Kopitar and Doughty are on RFA deals that are way bigger than any RFA deals Leafs have handed out (fair enough- they're better.) They will pass Phil and Dion (probably by a lot in Doughty's case) when they sign UFA deals.

Can't even be compared to each other.

Everyone is competing for the same Stanley Cup.

Kings are winning Cups while Kopitar and Doughty are on their RFA deals while Leafs are trying to win Cups with Kessel and Phaneuf on their inflated UFA contracts. If Kopitar and Doughty are better players and cheaper its a double advantage.

There is a lesson here, and an advantage here even if the contract $ are explained. Leafs RFA window has passed and that is when teams like LA and Chicago and Pittsburgh won Cups.

 

[Morguee]

Heard Dreger on the radio going on how he was not impressed with the Leafs game and that they only had a few shots against the Kings. I read that as his inside source Dave Nonis was a supporter behind Carlyle and may pay the price for it soon.

 

[King85Kong]

Heard Dreger on the radio going on how he was not impressed with the Leafs game and that they only had a few shots against the Kings. I read that as his inside source Dave Nonis was a supporter behind Carlyle and may pay the price for it soon.

That's really not surprising. Was time for a change.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

Everyone is competing for the same Stanley Cup.

Kings are winning Cups while Kopitar and Doughty are on their RFA deals while Leafs are trying to win Cups with Kessel and Phaneuf on their inflated UFA contracts. If Kopitar and Doughty are better players and cheaper its a double advantage.

There is a lesson here, and an advantage here even if the contract $ are explained. Leafs RFA window has passed and that is when teams like LA and Chicago and Pittsburgh won Cups.

From that perspective, yes I agree - I would love to see Nylander, Rielly, etc. perform at that level. But to have guys under 25 lead you to a cup, I think your front office needs to be both skillful and lucky.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

Heard Dreger on the radio going on how he was not impressed with the Leafs game and that they only had a few shots against the Kings. I read that as his inside source Dave Nonis was a supporter behind Carlyle and may pay the price for it soon.

Maybe Nonis will be out the door soon, but pretty silly to fire a guy for having a different opinion. When Leafs were going after Clarkson last summer, do you want a bunch of guys saying "yup, that's our guy" or someone saying "uhh, guys..."?

 

[Gary Nylund]

What are you looking for? Yes, he was an RFA when he signed it. Would he command more on the open market today? Yes, he would. Is he on the open market today? No, he is under contract, until 2019-2020.

I'm just pointing out that when he signed, he got what was market value at the time. Weren't you claiming that his contract was "team friendly"?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Right, Browns cap hit is indeed 5.8. His last contract was 3.1, which was still under market value at the time he signed it, but your point stands.

The point is, the Kings sign players they currently control to long term deals at under market AAV's. Doughty, Quick, Voynov, etc. Not sure what is so difficult to grasp there. Is Kessels contract under market? I would say no. Phaneuf? Nope. Lupul? Maybe about right, certainly not under market. Gardner? Is he the same player as a Voynov or Muzzin? Certainly not Voynov, maybe Muzzin.. List goes on.

Seems the Leafs have failed to utilize contract leverage when it was there. That really was my overall point. That, and the Kings seem to do a better job than most of finding deals that seem to hit either below market value or hit the sweet spot.

Timing. 4 years from now, Kessel at 8 million should be a steal. Hopefully Phaneuf too. Realistically we won't be a contender before then so maybe that's what we should be trying to do - having players signed 4 years from now that are below market value at that time.

When Doughty was signed, he wasn't below market value - he is now.

When Kessel was signed, he wasn't below market value - he should be a few years after he was signed - exactly the same as Doughty.

We'll see when Kopitar signs. I say that if you think he's signing for less than 9 million a year, you're dreaming. Gonna be 10+ for sure.

 

[Menzinger]

Heard Dreger on the radio going on how he was not impressed with the Leafs game and that they only had a few shots against the Kings. I read that as his inside source Dave Nonis was a supporter behind Carlyle and may pay the price for it soon.

I expect that Dreger is going to get quite chirpy about the Leafs as time goes on - especially if his cousin's job is on the line.