Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Well put it this way. Hawks have only won 5 games in the longest time. Two of those are against the Oilers. I'm just quipping Snet so this is probably wrong all day but...
Post-Game Talk: We could’ve had Debrincat
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Well put it this way. Hawks have only won 5 games in the longest time. Two of those are against the Oilers. I'm just quipping Snet so this is probably wrong all day but...
Behind Enemy Lines
Registered User
I'm loving the Kane acquisition. Always liked the player just not the sideshow. He's walking the walk from what we see as a good teammate. His effort with Koskinen was noticeable. He's a truth speaker about the game and what he is seeing and experiencing on this team. Hard North South game. Long has this team needed a power forward with elite skills. Still getting up to game speed but damn good enough to be a point producer and head above water +/- despite missing most of the season. Lots of talk about the 'swagger' he's brought but this is simple code for give a shit meter, hard effort in all areas, and relentless on grinding opposition (and unshakable self belief and self-confidence). All things that spark out on this team's personnel through its turnstile coaching legacy.
My post wasn't about Kane. But certainly share the same thoughts about the player. Without him, the three line centre strategy would not happen given the dearth of quality forward depth. Loving the Hyman acquisition who has been excellent with similar attributes to Kane minus the ill will/meanness. Too many soft players beyond the elites. And to stack your bottom six with them leads to a easy to beat team too often. There is an inherent softness in this team that Holland with inconsistency is trying to work over. The big pieces are in place but more Kane/Hyman attributes needed with depth forward and defense corp.
frag2
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- Mar 8, 2006
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And to think there were a bunch here championing him as a Top 6 winger smh
My complete sentiments and I also was not a big fan of Bear either, so you don't need to elaborate on that topicHeres the funny thing. Canes fans were telling us at trade time that Foegele was a player that would really frustrate. Would occasionally come up with a move, a nice play but leave you cold and wanting more the vast majority of the time. This is fans in a non traditional hockey market that apparently read Foegele better than Holland did. Its case 12934 in fans somehow discerning a bit more than people running Billion buck clubs at the highest level of hockey in the world. Foegele just goes down as the latest imposter of a player that our GM has thrown money, years, and contract at. We gave up Ethan Bear. Fortunately I don't think he's any great shakes either or this rant would be longer..
But pretty clearly it wasn't coaching stopping Foegele from being a player here. He's more useless than he was even before.
Frank the Tank
The Godfather
How many times have the Oilers played a player, like Foegele, too high in the line-up (because the coach lacks options) and they struggle? We've all witnessed the numerous times these players move to a different team and succeed when placed in the proper role.
Foegele came advertised as a 3rd line winger. He succeeded in Carolina in that role and has played well in that role in Edmonton. Yes, he's struggled to sustain offense when placed into the top-6, but let's not use that as a reason to run him out of town. The team just needs to find a way to return him to his proper position, which is tough with the injuries to RNH and Puljujarvi.
Foegele came advertised as a 3rd line winger. He succeeded in Carolina in that role and has played well in that role in Edmonton. Yes, he's struggled to sustain offense when placed into the top-6, but let's not use that as a reason to run him out of town. The team just needs to find a way to return him to his proper position, which is tough with the injuries to RNH and Puljujarvi.
This is why it bugs me when people start riding players for sucking or being useless. Its usually because they're put into roles they arent suited for and not because theyre terrible players.
Well said.
Duke74
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- Jan 13, 2018
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I can definitely see this being a trap game. It has all the elements.
First home game after a long road trip - check
Friday night hangovers for some of the guys - check
Early game - check
Weak opponent - check.
Don't expect the Oilers to show up much before the third period. Hopefully we're not three goals behind by that time.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Except Foegele hasn't been good anywhere here and isn't even a swiss army knife. I mean what does he actually bring. For 3mths of the season try if you can even find a goal or hilite of the player, Or even solid defensive player etc. He's been a floater, on a new team, really the worst kind, and if we didn't have several other floaters spinning around the Turlet (Turris) it would be more noticeable what a dog f***er he's been. This is a -13 player with limited minutes and responsibility that hasn't even had it in him to be an honest hard working energy player here. Worse, he's done this before,in 18-19 where he was probably the worst player on a team.
It isn't a bad fan look to fault the player and his play and contribution. Its a bad look to be the GM that specifically traded for this player, and gave him multiple year contract. I mean considering as well that anything would be overpay for this apparent quality of player.
Players like Foegele aren't even so suited to the NHL. Players of this ilk started seeing regular spots in lineup after capped league effects took place and the stars gravitated to eating up most of teams payroll leaving coin left for fill, overpays, pay outs, and GM"s just generally being awful at what they do.
Years ago a player like Craig Mactavish or Dave Tippett were in the same slots that players like Foegele are. but they were consummate players that could perform all roles and even go up the lineup, drop down, and play pk. It must be disgusting for players that played the game well to watch players like Foegele play. An NHL vet, age 26 in a few weeks. Howie Meeker would be going nuts at the idiocy of Foegele not even looking at the most talented player in hockey, McD, and going offside cancelling a goal. We don't get that kind of commentary anymore but Foegele would be weekly exposed as a moron on skates.
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redgrant
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- Nov 2, 2013
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Foegele is so average I dont even know what he does. Im not revisiting the Bear trade at all but everyone excited that this is some sort of coup....why? At best hes a 3rd line player when hes on top of his game. Hell Perlini had a better 10 day stretch then he has had all year.
Not trying to be a dick but you were also saying Derek Ryan was a useless and washed up concussion case earlier this year too.
I think we're far too quick to label players as useless plugs with this franchise. I agree they do bring in a lot of less than optimal players, but I also think there's a reason NHL players seem to come here to die. Foegele was a useful player in Carolina. If he's less so here, I'm inclined to point the finger at those in charge of directing and deploying him instead of concluding he isnt a good player.
As far as examples, Foegele - Ryan - Kassian had a great start as a third line this year before they fell off. So he has already shown he can do it. But everyone seems to have forgotten that already because we hit a skid and some players have struggled.
It's like players are expected to be on all the time and then when they have slumps its because theyre shitty players.
TopShelfGloveSide
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- Dec 10, 2018
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Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Ryan is old. too old to be a full season player. He's played better in 2022 segment but was horrible in 2021 when impacted by concussion, covid, and possible injury. Still, what is an org thinking when they just let players with actual talent like Gagner walk, and then just fill those roles with guys like Ryan. I like Ryan back from CIS, like I've said. But the Ryan I was seeing in first half of the season was too slow, too tentative, and wasn't getting to pucks or generating anything. He's a better player than he's shown here but there's no point really obtaining the player at this age. Its a joke to the org (yet another one) that they slept on this CIS product for a decade, only to bring him in too late for a swan song. maybe they felt guilty or dumb overlooking a player playing right in their city.
Foegele was awful in 18-19. Not like it hasn't happened before. In anycase this is a player with a 9% shooting percentage that is probably flattering. He has no hands, doesn't play pk much, doesn't hit much. What does he actually do? What role is there that he fills? What need that the Oilers had is he actually filling? Being a weak GA patsy even while playing the lowest quality of comp its possible for the team to give him?
Broberg Speed
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- Oct 23, 2020
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He's being grossly misused. I like Foegele as a player but he's being set up to fail. He's not a skilled player. He should be a checker and a very good one if he had a proper third-line center... a player we don't have. Trade Foegele to a club with a defensive center and watch this player excell.
Lo and behold RNH is injured again. Who said that was going to happen... well I did over and over again. The RNH is our third line center brigade just won't quit. RNH is going to get injured if he's the 3rd line center. He'll get better then he'll get hurt again. A proper 3rd line center is probably the most physically demanding position after #1 defenceman.
Management isn't even trying to put together a real NHL team. We are getting shafted by Holland. We are getting shafted by Katz. We are getting shafted by Bettman and the NHL. This team is built to lose.
Now Koskinen is worn out again after a 44 shot appearance followed by an OT loss. You can't play this goaltender back to back games. He'll start to struggle again now.
Now I'll sit back and wait to get called a Flames fan again. Or is it a Leafs fan. They can't decide.
Im not one to present a bunch of stats and stuff to try and sway an argument. I just know that he was a useful third line player in Carolina. They werent over there claiming he was a useless plug like some are doing here now. I dont believe he just forgot how to do what he was doing, I think we dont know how to enable him to do what he was doing.
I think he makes for a good third liner and is an upgrade on what we had prior. His play with Kassian and Ryan to start the year solidify my belief in it, but thats just my opinion.
You could very well be right, but its just so conveniently an Oilers problem to have that I have a hard time believing its just a Foegele problem.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Interesting point, the bolded. Indeed the last two injuries RNH suffered were on pretty routine hits along the boards. He doesn't eat a lot of hits, and with his sharp edges and premium skating ability he's able to avoid a lot of hits. But when he gets tagged with even routine hits a lot of times he's at least hurt. I love the talent he has, the head for the game, he would make a great coach, but he's not doing anything much seemingly to have a more resilient body that can absorb more hits. He gets hit far less than any of our Centers but he's out multiple stints this season just because of hits.
Its a problem.
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Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Great posts. Thanks for them, would be remiss not to mention it. I do appreciate the thoughtful replies, and always like if somebody is actually countering points.
All that said, and considering your points, one has to recognize the club culture in Carolina would be much, much different than here. The roster depth would be much differnet than here. Dog it out there on the ice in Carolina and your sitting on the bench or press box or in the AHL. The team, players, org, wouldn't accept it. It isn't like that here, and there is no play hard culture here every night that exists in the team. There isn't anybody here forcing you to be consistent be better.
thats the problem in player recognition. Is it really an attribute of player, or team, in a case like Foegele.
My deduction is Foegele is not a smart or consistent player. he was helped immensely being on a smart hardworking club where nothing less than your best is acceptable.
Broberg Speed
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It's a huge problem if he has to get rotator cuff or ACL surgery at his age. He's got an 8 year ticket. Then we are screwed and it's the GMs fault for not having the proper personnel. Holland has got to go. I'm 100% convinced he's tanking this team.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Chiarelli was more inclined to tank the team. Or at least set it on fire when he first got inkling he was gone and went rogue on multiple deals. That this org allowed any of that is travesty.
Holland is just past it. He seems earnestly trying to help, but at this point he's a blind squirrel writing cheques with few nuts..
its the orgs fault for CONSCIOUSLY using the dilbert principle to PURPOSELY hire dolts like Tambo, Chiarelli, Holland, Nicholson, who are so incompetent they are no threat to the lifetime order or GM foodchain lineage here.
If an org was TRYING to not have any recent success and were trying to have a nostalgia club it would behave like this one, for decades. This org seems to exist for the purpose of making the 80's team look better to perpetuity. That dynamic won't be gone until all the hangers on are flushed out.
Behind Enemy Lines
Registered User
Unfortunately the key in your post is "before they fell off." The past coaching staff trusted Ryan to lock down 3C and early returns with an engaged Foegele and Kassian looked like this team had found its engaged, hard to play against bottom six anchor. Unfortunately the inconsistency in the game of all three blew that up. Tippett couldn't see the utility in Ryan's game and high hockey processor to move him to 3W while McLeod got more ice-time and then Kane acquisition finally enabled this team to role its greatest strength of McDavid, Draisaitl and Nugent Hopkins centre spine to build out a legitimate top nine. Ryan is able to handle an easier position and contribute right hand face-off support at 3W rather than slot down as a key situational 4C specialist.
Woodcroft's best asset has been fresh eyes and greater flexibility in how to deploy this lineup's support forwards and platoon seven d.
Foegele was a useful but expendable player in Carolina. Most organizations will trade-off a 3W for a 3D/2D tweener most days of the week. The frustration, my frustration, with Foegele is a guy that will sleepwalk through games like last night. He had zeros across the board with no hits and very little effort to engage in a slog of a hockey game. A competent 3We player but one would like to see more life and energy in this player like we saw in a brief snapshot to start the year.
Foegele was identified as a player to help change the mix and make this team harder to play against. We don't see that enough and that's where the frustration is, not in some misspent idea that a mid20's player had some sort of latent offensive production ability.
The passivity malaise runs deep in this team and has been embedded longer than two coaching staffs.
EDIT: couple words for clarity
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No problem. I also appreciate and enjoy our discussions.
I can't argue with your assessment of the club culture differences and how they impact our players. I'd very much argue thats precisely why players here struggle in general, let alone after coming from other sucessful clubs. It's plagued this organization for as long as I can remember and unfortunately still does. I think its a top down thing and I just don't see how it ever changes under current ownership. We see the odd guys who come in and have that drive and ethic, but they either don't stay long or they seem to become complacent and it's really unfortunate because I do think our club would have been better years before, and could be better now if that sort of hard accountibility and work ethic was enforced on the Oilers day in and day out.
Like yourself I was very skeptical of the early enthusiasm around Jay Woodcroft despite also thinking they do look like a different team fundamentally, but then a game like last night, or the one in Philly happens and you see a reversion to the half assed effort. Every team has off nights, but this one hasn't had anything resembling sustained success enough for this to be occuring like it does.
Couldn't agree more. We don't know how to get the best out of players on a consistent basis and wind up chalking it up to players just being bad. Some of them are, but like you say the malaise is a real, long standing problem thats plagued almost everyone that comes through here.
GD I miss my like button.
tardigrade81
Registered User
Behind Enemy Lines
Registered User
I actually think the effort must first (and always) come from within. It's the one thing all players at any level can control. Too often the Oiler teams for like forever are reactive, not assertive in their play. Kane's press quote last night about playing with more 'drive' and 'grit' is a telling first impression.
By example Foegele is a suitable 3W player but can and should do more to give this team energy when slotted into this position. When higher in the lineup, it's the bare minimum requirement to add value to the better skill around him. Yamamoto gets slagged a lot here for what he's not. But I'll never criticize the work rate, effort and willingness the smallest guy on the ice has to go into the battle areas on the ice. Missing top six productivity but I think Yamamoto can be a really solid 3W energy player. Now imagine if guys like Foegele and Kassian who have the raw physical toolkits could be infused with Yamamoto's heart and compete.
Coming out of Chiarelli handcuffs this team has tried to tinker with a variety of cheap, quick fix ways to build up the bottom six quality - reclamation projects Turris and Perlini; Euro dart board veteran free agents Haas and the fast Swedish guy; covid free agent fringers like Shore and Sceviours. Onboarding AHL prospect wishful thinking like Benson. The hope is something will stick but overwhelmingly what we see are badly fit player types or skillsets to give this team some physical pushback in the lower end of a high finesse forward group. Deploying the wrong player type imo.
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