GDT: WDSF Game 5: Wild @ Golden Knights - 9:30 PM CT - NBC, TVAS, SN, BSN

[grimmel95]

I’m not an optimist about Guerin. I’m not even a fan of him. Evason I’m mixed on, but Guerin I’m not a fan of. That said, I still think people look at things in black and white too often. We really don’t know how things are going on behind the scenes. In particular, with negotiations with player and GMs. It’s easy to look at missed opportunities in hindsight, but we really don’t know how things unfolded. The other thing is, there’s 32 GMs in the NHL. Just based on how the standings are setup, only a finite amount of them are going to be successful every year. If you take any 3 year stretch of hockey, there’s about 5 GMs where the perception is that they consistently did a good job. Fans expect the so much to happen so quick, but everyone is trying to make good moves; everyone is trying to make their team better. If it was easy, everyone would do it. I think after only a year and a half stretch as GM, after a year where the team certainly took a step in the right direction, is a bit of an unrealistic time to be calling for guy’s jobs.

I agree with your post 100% and that calling for BG's head because he hasn't improved this team is ridiculous.

Does anyone actually think that maybe Guerin saw what this team was/is and decided right now is not the time to blow our draft picks/assets on a rental center or 2? We've done that in the past with Fletcher trading away our 1sts and 2nds and had nothing to show for it other than a depleted cupboard of assets. I expect this off-season to be different and Guerin to bring in at least 1 or 2 young centers along with giving Rossi and Boldy a chance to make the team. If that happens the Wild should be in a better position moving forward.

 

[AKL]

It’s fair to be upset and expect him to do something after last season; he didn’t. You can certainly be upset now; I am not arguing that he’s done a great job. I’m more just trying to temper expectations because I don’t think it’s realistic that he’s on the hot seat after this season, and based on the history of NHL, he shouldn’t be.

I agree with your post 100% and that calling for BG's head because he hasn't improved this team is ridiculous.

I don't think anyone calling for him to be fired actually thinks he's going to be fired, the same way people calling for Boldy to play weren't actually predicting he would. It's voicing frustration with the status quo.

Does anyone actually think that maybe Guerin saw what this team was/is and decided right now is not the time to blow our draft picks/assets on a rental center or 2? We've done that in the past with Fletcher trading away our 1sts and 2nds and had nothing to show for it other than a depleted cupboard of assets. I expect this off-season to be different and Guerin to bring in at least 1 or 2 young centers along with giving Rossi and Boldy a chance to make the team. If that happens the Wild should be in a better position moving forward.

If Guerin saw that this team wasn't ready for primetime, he should have done more to acquire more draft capital and prospects. Then he'd actually have some assets to acquire the 1 or 2 young centers you think he's going to acquire.

 

[2Pair]

Evason's contract has 1 year left on it. If the decision to fire him is made this off season I'm not too concerned with it.

In other news:

@2Pair - If Guerin indeed is the one who's been holding Boldy out of the lineup these playoffs, then I think that's enough to push me over the line and say that Guerin is now in fireable offense territory. I wasn't so concerned with him being held out of the end of the regular season although if I were the decision maker I would've gave him a few games but keeping him out of the playoffs and intentionally not allowing the coach to ice the best team possible is just awful and I would be indifferent if he was canned.

Only way he could redeem himself at this point is if he makes some serious improvements at the Center position this off-season. By that I mean a bonafide 1/2 center. Without giving up the farm. Otherwise....yea. Unfortunately I don't see Leipold doing much in the way of firing Billy this year.

If it's true that Boldy didn't even make the trip to Vegas, then I think it's obvious that Guerin is the one making the decisions about playing him.

 

[MNNumbers]

Here's what I hope for from Guerin this off-season, according to issues that are present:
1- Dumba. The big problem here is that he isn't worth 6M/yr. It wasn't a bad contract when it was given, because there were signs he would be worth all of it. Time, injury have shown that 6M is above his worth. There is so much debate on this board about his value that it isn't really possible for me to say what, exactly, should be done. But it is my opinion that, concerning the other needs on the roster, that Dumba should be elsewhere next fall. If he is still here, making 6M, that's a fail. And, again, it's not that I am against Dumba. It's that there are looming cap issues, and treating the cap issues requires moving Dumba's contract, because it is the one big piece that can be moved. If he gets something for him, fine. If he trades, and has a player with one year left on his contract, and that contract is allowed to expire next year, fine. Even if Dumba is lost in the ED, that's fine. But his contract is an issue.

2- Centers. The questions here are: How good is Rossi going to be, and how quickly? Since the GREEF line is actually one of the best in the league in advanced stats, and Ek keeps looking better and better, I would not want to see that line broken up. That means we need someone with at least middle 6 talent to play between Zucc and Kap, and another to play between Boldy and Fiala. How this is done, I don't know. But this needs to be addressed. Possibilities are: Including Dumba in a trade that nets a middle 6 guy, or a one year FA guy. One would hope that Rossi can fit here, but the reality is that he might be playing over his head in November and December in such a role, and that is the reason that 2, yes 2 men are needed here.

3- Parise. Here what is needed is simply a decision. Both buyout and a trade which turns into a Cap Recapture penalty have fewer cap implications than him being 13th Forward for 4 years. So, a good discussion about his future and a decision need to be made.

4- Cap management. This has been a bad issue for a long time. Spurgeon isn't worth 7.58M. Not at his age. That was a big mistake. In this case, the key points are: Managing the Dumba and Parise situations such that there is room next year for Greenway and Kahkonen to be resigned, and with foresight to the year following as well,

5- Finally, Expansion Draft. This is, of course, connected to the other things. Somehow, there needs to be a big plan in place for the whole picture. Too often, our GMs have not had that, and as a result every move has been a bandage. I want to see a few moves that work TOGETHER.

 

[grimmel95]

I don't think anyone calling for him to be fired actually thinks he's going to be fired, the same way people calling for Boldy to play weren't actually predicting he would. It's voicing frustration with the status quo.



If Guerin saw that this team wasn't ready for primetime, he should have done more to acquire more draft capital and prospects. Then he'd actually have some assets to acquire the 1 or 2 young centers you think he's going to acquire.

Tell me what Guerin was supposed to do at the trade deadline with Bonino, Rask , Johannson, Bjugstad? Trade them all away for 4th, 5th and later round picks? For someone to take Rask they would have had to give up a first or 2nd for that too happen.

And if Guerin traded all those guys away that were on 1 yr contracts who was going to fill their spots on the team considering they were sitting in 3rd place and starting to make a push for 1st/2nd in the division. The fans would have bitched that Guerin gave up on the team and didn't show any confidence in them and now the fans are bitching about Guerin not somehow trading for a #1/#2 center or both since it's so freaking easy to do.

Fans are ridiculous in my humble opinion.

 

[TaLoN]

That squirrel gives us a perfect inside look into the mind of dean evason.

I find this one fits better...

 

[AKL]

Tell me what Guerin was supposed to do at the trade deadline with Bonino, Rask , Johannson, Bjugstad? Trade them all away for 4th, 5th and later round picks? For someone to take Rask they would have had to give up a first or 2nd for that too happen.

And if Guerin traded all those guys away that were on 1 yr contracts who was going to fill their spots on the team considering they were sitting in 3rd place and starting to make a push for 1st/2nd in the division. The fans would have bitched that Guerin gave up on the team and didn't show any confidence in them and now the fans are bitching about Guerin not somehow trading for a #1/#2 center or both since it's so freaking easy to do.

Fans are ridiculous in my humble opinion.

So when, in your humble opinion, can fans expect their teams GM to actually do something? Or, as fans, do we just have to sit down, shut up, and assume our GM is the best GM, and anything he does or doesn't do, is the right decision? In your humble opinion, of course...

 

[Jesus comma Brodin]

How can that be 'redefining', when the well known definition is: Continuing to do the same thing while expecting a different result?

I think you know what I inferred, but point taken.

 

[grimmel95]

So when, in your humble opinion, can fans expect their teams GM to actually do something? Or, as fans, do we just have to sit down, shut up, and assume our GM is the best GM, and anything he does or doesn't do, is the right decision? In your humble opinion, of course...

Guerin's 1st season was a wash because he was hired how many weeks before the start of the season? Was he supposed to start trading players away and who the hell was left in FA to bring in that was going to make a difference. Then Covid hit and everything was up in the air and if there was even going to be a season, etc. Guerin made some trades, brought some guys in and even though I wasn't super fond of those guys (Bonino, Johannson) they for the most part have done what they were expected to do. Did I foresee Rask and Bonino being on the PP let alone the 1st PP unit. NO.

In your humble opinion should Guerin get a chance to see what he has before making changes that will dictate the course for this team? As far as I'm concerned this past off-season was year #1 for Guerin and now the real work begins. If Guerin fails to fix the center spots (more than one spot) then I'll step in-line with you and start bitching that Guerin isn't doing enough.

So many of you complain that he hasn't fixed the center spot yet. How do any of us know that he hasn't tried? I've heard it takes 2 people to actually make a trade happen. Just saying!

 

[RussosBurner]

Guerin has barely been here for two years, he's had one draft, hardly enough time to shape the roster in his own image given many of the bad contracts this roster is saddled with from his predecessors, and oversaw this team overachieving greatly all year. Amazing that people are calling for his head at this point. Take a breath and step back, don't think with your emotions just because you're angry we're down in this series against a team that tied for most points in the league this year. Let's give the guy a couple legit years to draft and develop some players, maybe make some trades, and then if you still don't like him you can make the argument he should be fired.

Doing that less than 2 full years into his tenure is just nonsensical.

 

[AKL]

Guerin's 1st season was a wash because he was hired how many weeks before the start of the season? Was he supposed to start trading players away and who the hell was left in FA to bring in that was going to make a difference. Then Covid hit and everything was up in the air and if there was even going to be a season, etc. Guerin made some trades, brought some guys in and even though I wasn't super fond of those guys (Bonino, Johannson) they for the most part have done what they were expected to do. Did I foresee Rask and Bonino being on the PP let alone the 1st PP unit. NO.

In your humble opinion should Guerin get a chance to see what he has before making changes that will dictate the course for this team? As far as I'm concerned this past off-season was year #1 for Guerin and now the real work begins. If Guerin fails to fix the center spots (more than one spot) then I'll step in-line with you and start bitching that Guerin isn't doing enough.

So many of you complain that he hasn't fixed the center spot yet. How do any of us know that he hasn't tried? I've heard it takes 2 people to actually make a trade happen. Just saying!

I know he's 'tried', but he hasn't 'done'. Trying doesn't actually fix anything.

So if Guerin hasn't fixed both center spots in 5 months, you'll agree that he hasn't done enough, even though he tried? Or will there just be more excuses and reasons not to be dissatisfied with him?

 

[Nino Noderreiter]

The only defense of Guerin in my mind is that he drafted Rossi thinking that Rossi would play this season and then, well we know what has happened since.

Kaprizov-Hartman-Zuccarrello
Foligno-Ek-Greenway
Sturm-Rossi-Fiala

That looks a lot better.

 

[TaLoN]

Guerin has barely been here for two years, he's had one draft, hardly enough time to shape the roster in his own image given many of the bad contracts this roster is saddled with from his predecessors, and oversaw this team overachieving greatly all year. Amazing that people are calling for his head at this point. Take a breath and step back, don't think with your emotions just because you're angry we're down in this series against a team that tied for most points in the league this year. Let's give the guy a couple legit years to draft and develop some players, maybe make some trades, and then if you still don't like him you can make the argument he should be fired.

Doing that less than 2 full years into his tenure is just nonsensical.

Anyone (including myself) using the term fired, is just venting frustration at his lack of performance.

Everyone knows it's unrealistic to expect a GM of such short term to be fired. That said, the frustration level induced by his lack of action sure as hell can make people suggest it.

Fenton being fired after such a short time is an anomaly... less time in the position than GMBG, but that also means, even though it's unlikely, it is "possible", and this frustrated fans will use the term even if they don't realistically expect such a thing.

 

[guitarhunterdude]

I agree with your post 100% and that calling for BG's head because he hasn't improved this team is ridiculous.

Does anyone actually think that maybe Guerin saw what this team was/is and decided right now is not the time to blow our draft picks/assets on a rental center or 2? We've done that in the past with Fletcher trading away our 1sts and 2nds and had nothing to show for it other than a depleted cupboard of assets. I expect this off-season to be different and Guerin to bring in at least 1 or 2 young centers along with giving Rossi and Boldy a chance to make the team. If that happens the Wild should be in a better position moving forward.

That absolutely should've been his situation analysis upon taking the position, and I have to believe it was given his lack of effort to address a pretty terrible center lineup. The fact that we didn't move assets at the deadline for more draft capital shows he's waffling and leaving us entirely directionless.

 

[grimmel95]

I know he's 'tried', but he hasn't 'done'. Trying doesn't actually fix anything.

So if Guerin hasn't fixed both center spots in 5 months, you'll agree that he hasn't done enough, even though he tried? Or will there just be more excuses and reasons not to be dissatisfied with him?

Dude what's your problem with Guerin?

Guerin has to have a trading partner and something another team wants to actually be able to make a trade. Outside of Dumba what do the Wild have to offer to a team to trade for a #1/#2 center. Maybe the league is seeing what the Wild see in Dumba and the salary attached to him and say no thanks. In my opinion his value is way down and he's not returning a #1/#2 center for us without significant assets being attached -- Boldy, Rossi, Addison, #1 picks, etc. Of course not all of those assets but if you want a #1 center you have to give up multiple pieces.

 

[TaLoN]

That absolutely should've been his situation analysis upon taking the position, and I have to believe it was given his lack of effort to address a pretty terrible center lineup. The fact that we didn't move assets at the deadline for more draft capital shows he's waffling and leaving us entirely directionless.

Being directionless is the biggest problem here.

If he's not willing to commit to this team, he has to commit to the future of this team. He chose to do neither, and that's completely unacceptable.

 

[grimmel95]

That absolutely should've been his situation analysis upon taking the position, and I have to believe it was given his lack of effort to address a pretty terrible center lineup. The fact that we didn't move assets at the deadline for more draft capital shows he's waffling and leaving us entirely directionless.

Hypothetically let's pursue your line of thinking and Guerin trades away Johannson, Bonino, Bjugstad, etc for late round draft picks. In your mind what players fill those spots and do the Wild continue playing as well as they did down the stretch or do they miss the playoffs altogether? If they fall out of playoff contention then we FANS bitch and complain that Guerin didn't bring in anyone. If we trade away a 1st, 2nd or 3rd or 4th's for rentals and still get bounced in the 1st round (as usual) we as FANS will bitch and complain saying Guerin messed up by bringing in rentals.

Maybe Guerin brought in 1 year guys to get us to this off-season and through the expansion draft before trading away assets, etc to fix the wholes we have at center.

 

[grimmel95]

Being directionless is the biggest problem here.

If he's not willing to commit to this team, he has to commit to the future of this team. He chose to do neither, and that's completely unacceptable.

How do you see the Wild being directionless? This team overachieved and Guerin saw that and decided not to mortgage the teams future for rental players. If anything he should be commended for not doing what Fletcher normally did. Guerin has some cap space and some good talent coming (Addison, Menell, Boldy, Rossi) so lets see what he does this off-season. If we start next year with Ek, Rask, Hartman, and Sturm as our 4 centers then I'll say Guerin isn't doing enough to fix the center spot but for gosh sakes let's give him a semi-normal offseason to actually make some changes. One thing to keep in mind Guerin also has been hamstrung by the contracts given out by his predecessors so making changes isn't that easy like it is in other sports. Don't forget about that part of the equation.

 

[Bazeek]

Dude what's your problem with Guerin?

Guerin has to have a trading partner and something another team wants to actually be able to make a trade. Outside of Dumba what do the Wild have to offer to a team to trade for a #1/#2 center. Maybe the league is seeing what the Wild see in Dumba and the salary attached to him and say no thanks. In my opinion his value is way down and he's not returning a #1/#2 center for us without significant assets being attached -- Boldy, Rossi, Addison, #1 picks, etc. Of course not all of those assets but if you want a #1 center you have to give up multiple pieces.

Like politics, managing a team is the art of the possible. We can look at any given situation and speculate that there weren't any good options, but as time goes on that excuse loses potency. The team's needs are clear and we've seen several players that would have addressed that need move for reasonable prices since Guerin's taken over. The misses have been piling up while Guerin's been "patient."

I don't think he should be fired over this playoff series, but it's the capstone on his first two years as the GM and I would have felt more charitable if his team had shown better than it has. As it is, his roster has managed to disappoint modest expectations. We are at the absolute outer limit of the honeymoon period where inaction can be excused as a lack of options or familiarity.

 

[Mickey the mouse]

So Addison, another Iowa guy made the trip but Boldy didn’t? Good to know. Just because I can’t drive to tria doesn’t meant I can’t have a question

It's just the way you questioned my original statement with " Do you have proof of this ?"

None of the Iowa guys are included with the big Wild in anything.
G - Jones
D - Addison
D - Belpedio ( can't confirm, but heard he's still hurt )
F - Boldy
F - Dewar
F - Duhaime

The practice squad guys are with the big team and travel with them.

 

[TaLoN]

How do you see the Wild being directionless? This team overachieved and Guerin saw that and decided not to mortgage the teams future for rental players.

Never said he should. That doesn't mean he can't trade away rentals in the process, does it?

What is Bonino doing for us that was so vital to hang onto through the trade deadline? Why did we not even try for a 6th round pick for Johansson?

Unless you're saying those guys are so bad, they're unable to give them away... I don't believe that myself.

- Addison

Aren't they saying he's playing tonight though?

 

[StateofCelly]

It's just the way you questioned my original statement with " Do you have proof of this ?"

None of the Iowa guys are included with the big Wild in anything.
G - Jones
D - Addison
D - Belpedio ( can't confirm, but heard he's still hurt )
F - Boldy
F - Dewar
F - Duhaime

The practice squad guys are with the big team and travel with them.

I think everyone knows how the black aces work, but he didn't get Boldy's travel itinerary no different than you don't know what he ate for breakfast this morning. He asked for proof because it was a valid question, and you "validated" it by telling him to drive to Tria?

 

[MNNumbers]

I think you know what I inferred, but point taken.

Oh, I got it. I may have missed the implication. Thanks for helping me to think this through more....
It could be:
"Giving a fresh, clear example of the definition, in case anyone forgot." Yep. Check.
Or:
"Going to such depths of insanity that said depth has not been reached before." Yep. Check.

It's really too bad. Do Something!! Even if it's wrong. Do Something.

 

[TaLoN]

Oh, I got it. I may have missed the implication. Thanks for helping me to think this through more....
It could be:
"Giving a fresh, clear example of the definition, in case anyone forgot." Yep. Check.
Or:
"Going to such depths of insanity that said depth has not been reached before." Yep. Check.

It's really too bad. Do Something!! Even if it's wrong. Do Something.

He's following his GM's example. Be patient, do nothing, until there is nothing to do in the first place.

 

[AKL]

How do you see the Wild being directionless? This team overachieved and Guerin saw that and decided not to mortgage the teams future for rental players. If anything he should be commended for not doing what Fletcher normally did. Guerin has some cap space and some good talent coming (Addison, Menell, Boldy, Rossi) so lets see what he does this off-season. If we start next year with Ek, Rask, Hartman, and Sturm as our 4 centers then I'll say Guerin isn't doing enough to fix the center spot but for gosh sakes let's give him a semi-normal offseason to actually make some changes. One thing to keep in mind Guerin also has been hamstrung by the contracts given out by his predecessors so making changes isn't that easy like it is in other sports. Don't forget about that part of the equation.

So again, at what point is it okay to criticize Guerin's lack of action? A few posts ago, you seemed to believe it would be acceptable if he didn't solve the center situation this summer, but now you're saying he may not have the assets or the targets to actually solve it. Now it seems like you'll never be okay with anyone criticizing Guerin's handling of this team.