Wayne Gretzky overrated

[David Bruce Banner]

Bobby Orr was a dominant player in any quality of league.

Bobby Orr was special, no argument. Personally, I have him as the 3rd greatest player of all time... after Gretzky and Lemieux.

But, IMHO, OP's statement that Gretzky's legacy has been enhanced due to the style and quality of hockey being played in the 80's has to be balanced against the arguement that the NHL was at it's most diluted, talent-wise, during the 70's... and Bobby Orr benefited from that.

Lemieux probably faced the highest level of LQ during his peak... although Howe supporters might say differently.

 

[PepperKeenan]

You know Gretzky lead the 90s in scoring too, right?

That's news to me. Or rather, that's incorrect. Gretzky scored the 4th most points in the 90's (regular season points). Sakic, Jagr and Oates scored more points (in more games than G though). Gretzky was second in P/GP after Lemieux. 1990s NHL Stats

Some mind blowing 80's gretzky facts.:
During only the 80's Gretzky scored 1842 points, that's 2.4 P/GP.
Only Messier, Howe and Jagr has scored more than that in their 25 year careers.
Peter Stastny was number 2 in points during the 80's. Scoring 1059 points during the 80's, close to 800 less points than Gretzky. Kurri is number 3 with 799 less points. Dionne was 10th in points in the 80's with 999 after Gretzky. So while scoring was higher in the 80's Gretzky still absolutely destroyed everyone when it came to producing points.

1980s NHL Stats

 

[McGuillicuddy]

That's news to me. Or rather, that's incorrect. Gretzky scored the 4th most points in the 90's (regular season points). Sakic, Jagr and Oates scored more points (in more games than G though). Gretzky was second in P/GP after Lemieux. 1990s NHL Stats

Some mind blowing 80's gretzky facts.:
During only the 80's Gretzky scored 1842 points, that's 2.4 P/GP.
Only Messier, Howe and Jagr has scored more than that in their 25 year careers.
Peter Stastny was number 2 in points during the 80's. Scoring 1059 points during the 80's, close to 800 less points than Gretzky. Kurri is number 3 with 799 less points. Dionne was 10th in points in the 80's with 999 after Gretzky. So while scoring was higher in the 80's Gretzky still absolutely destroyed everyone when it came to producing points.

1980s NHL Stats

I think it depends on how you define "the 90s". Is it by the calendar (i.e. Jan 1 1990 - Dec 31 1999), or by season? And if by season is it 89-90 to 98-99 or 90-91 to 99-00? I think if you use the former then Gretzky is the leading scorer of the decade. The site you referenced uses (rather arbitrarily) the latter which includes a season that Gretzky didn't play (99-00).

 

[PepperKeenan]

I think it depends on how you define "the 90s". Is it by the calendar (i.e. Jan 1 1990 - Dec 31 1999), or by season? And if by season is it 89-90 to 98-99 or 90-91 to 99-00? I think if you use the former then Gretzky is the leading scorer of the decade. The site you referenced uses (rather arbitrarily) the latter which includes a season that Gretzky didn't play (99-00).

Yeah, I guess you're right. The freaking 80's though, insane dominance.

 

[Iapyi]

interesting sidenote, gretzky was so dominant that hockey pools/drafts didn't even allow him to be chosen.

 

[Fourier]

There is also a belief that Gretzky's numbers were significantly inflated by his high flying teammates. But his second biggest year pointwise was actually before those guys reached their full potential. He had 212 points in 81-82 and if anyone argues that this was because of his hall of fame teammates then they simply did not watch any of that season.

 

[Fourier]

Playing defense was a weakness. As it was for Mario.

No it wasn't. This is a myth.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No it wasn't. This is a myth.

Oh come on. If Mario and Wayne weren't weak defensively, who was?

I still have Gretzky as my 1, but I get the arguments to the contrary.

 

[McGuillicuddy]

Yeah, I guess you're right. The freaking 80's though, insane dominance.

For Gretzky's case it makes sense to use 79-80 to 88-89 as the first decade and 89-90 to 98-99 as the second. He was the leading scorer for both decades of his 20 year career.

Amazing.

 

[McGuillicuddy]

Oh come on. If Mario and Wayne weren't weak defensively, who was?

I still have Gretzky as my 1, but I get the arguments to the contrary.

Weak defensively? Who cares? You don't use a Ferrari to haul lumber.

 

[steveat]

The question is. How much of Gretzky's 80's success was as a result of playing on a line with Semenko? Maybe other players were too scared O.0

In any event....

Gretzky's hockey IQ was off the charts ..like closing in on Pluto. He thought the game fluidly.

- He would use reflections off the glass to avoid being hit
- It was extremely difficult to check him
- He would think 5-10 moves ahead. ie. If I pass to this guy, he would pass to that guy, who would then pass to that guy, who would take a shot and the rebound would end up here. He would be waiting for that rebound because he knew where it was.
- He would count down in his head when a penalty was finishing and be waiting for his guy to get out of the box OR would make sure he had possession when the other team was coming out of the box.
- He had an extra stiff stick so he could make more accurate shots

You would never see a flashy dance Bure level goal.

Orr on the other hand was probably the most naturally gifted player to play the game. He didn't have to think the game...he just knew

Howe was rough and tough..smart and good enough to last.

Lemieux was flash.....well above average on every level.

The thing that all these guys had in common was

1. Leadership
2. Consistency
3. The ability to adapt when the game changes - example...Wade Redden was a great defensemen, but as soon as the game changed...he couldn't.

When you have these 3 elements, it's not about the points anymore...they just happen.


4 completely different (amazing) players that were different.

Also, I was not a fan of any of these players...Islanders fan here, so I never liked Gretzky until one LA game I saw where he got a puck to the head and didn't go down. Ever since then..respect.

Anyway...must we always use points to compare?

I wonder how much Gretzky would have been paid today at his peak? I honestly don't think 15 mill would come close to justification.

 

[Fourier]

Oh come on. If Mario and Wayne weren't weak defensively, who was?

I still have Gretzky as my 1, but I get the arguments to the contrary.

I'll let others respond for Mario but for Wayne he was definitely not weak defensively. My comments are based on watching him live hundreds of time. For me he was unorthodox but not weak.

Wayne was a terrific fore-checker and back-checker. He was as good as Datsyuk in stripping pucks. His defensive game was driven like other parts of his game by his anticipation.

In his own end he played very high but that was by design. In part is was a tactic to take the opposition defensemen out of the play. No one backed off defenders like Gretzky which made it significantly easier for the Oilers to get the puck out of their end. . He was also excellent at picking off passes in his own end and transitioning the puck immediately up ice. And while completely non-physical if there was scrum along the boards Gretzky had a great knack of coming away with the puck.

 

[Sentinel]

Yeah, I guess you're right. The freaking 80's though, insane dominance.

As others indicated, if you go 89-90 to 98-99, Gretzky was the #1 scorer of the decade. That's

1. After a crippling injury
2. After playing an insane amount of games in the 80s
3. In the era with best goaltenders in NHL history.

And you know he was -48 in the 90s, right?

And we care because?

 

[Sentinel]

Eh... What?

"Dominated" is exactly the right word.

First of all -- the Soviets: On the rare occasions when Gretzky played against them in best-on-bests (those in his prime years between 1981 and 1991), here's how he did:

9GP: 3G + 14A = 17PTS (weirdly, he didn't score against them in one game in '91, but anyway...)

I would also include Gretzky's play against the Soviets in other tournaments: World Championship 1983 and club levels. Don't have the numbers though. I think Makarov and Krutov are close to him.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I think you have to be very generous and very much the type of person who wants to go outside the norm to rank anyone ahead of Gretzky. I simply don't see an argument for him even at #2.

Best career? Gretzky
Best Prime? Gretzky
Best Peak? Gretzky (maybe you can make an argument for Orr - but you can just as easily, if not moreso, make it for Gretzky I think)
Best Playoffs? Gretzky
Best international tournaments? Gretzky

Career - probably Gretzky, but there`s an argument for Howe.
Prime - I`d rank Howe ahead. Maybe you could argue for Bourque ahead as well.
Peak - there`s a solid argument for Orr.
Playoffs - no worse than 3rd behind Richard and/or Roy.
International tournament - probably an argument for Fetisov or Makarov.

If you look at it like that, Gretzky is probably no worse than 3rd in any category, and he has a legitimate argument for 1st in all five. Ranking Gretzky anywhere other than first isn't impossible, but it's a tough sell.

 

[reckoning]

interesting sidenote, gretzky was so dominant that hockey pools/drafts didn't even allow him to be chosen.

A lot of pools in the 80s had a rule that you drafted Gretzky, you could take his goals, or his assists, but not total points. Even getting just his assists would be great for your team, but total points would make it impossible for anyone else to catch up.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'll let others respond for Mario but for Wayne he was definitely not weak defensively. My comments are based on watching him live hundreds of time. For me he was unorthodox but not weak.

Wayne was a terrific fore-checker and back-checker. He was as good as Datsyuk in stripping pucks. His defensive game was driven like other parts of his game by his anticipation.

In his own end he played very high but that was by design. In part is was a tactic to take the opposition defensemen out of the play. No one backed off defenders like Gretzky which made it significantly easier for the Oilers to get the puck out of their end. . He was also excellent at picking off passes in his own end and transitioning the puck immediately up ice. And while completely non-physical if there was scrum along the boards Gretzky had a great knack of coming away with the puck.

Speedy wingers and some centers did cause defenders to back-off by playing high. Usually defencemen who were weak skating backwards on teams with little or no forechecking ability. Common after the introduction of the center Red Line.

Unorthodox. Not really. Prudent would be an alternative description. Coaches did not like the idea of an elite forward breaking an ankle blocking a shot or being nailed by a shot down in the low slot. 6-8 weeks without a superstar tends to kill a season or a playoff run. So if superstars were killing penalties they were instructed not to block shots. Self-preservation.

Datsyuk defensive game was anticipation driven, likewise Dave Keon, Henri Richard, Jean Beliveau, Jacques Lemaire, Stan Mikita, Sidney Crosby, Jonathan Toews, Patrice Bergeron, etc.

 

[Iapyi]

A lot of pools in the 80s had a rule that you drafted Gretzky, you could take his goals, or his assists, but not total points. Even getting just his assists would be great for your team, but total points would make it impossible for anyone else to catch up.

interesting. we would just take him out of the equation entirely. if we didn't, whoever drew the #1 pick could have just been given the money right then and there.

no player in any sport has ever been as good as gretzky and that includes all you jai alai fans out there.

 

[Doctor No]

My recollection was that many leagues split Gretzky in two, and you could draft either Gretzky's assists or Gretzky's goals as separate players.

 

[Fourier]

Speedy wingers and some centers did cause defenders to back-off by playing high. Usually defencemen who were weak skating backwards on teams with little or no forechecking ability. Common after the introduction of the center Red Line.

Unorthodox. Not really. Prudent would be an alternative description. Coaches did not like the idea of an elite forward breaking an ankle blocking a shot or being nailed by a shot down in the low slot. 6-8 weeks without a superstar tends to kill a season or a playoff run. So if superstars were killing penalties they were instructed not to block shots. Self-preservation.

Datsyuk defensive game was anticipation driven, likewise Dave Keon, Henri Richard, Jean Beliveau, Jacques Lemaire, Stan Mikita, Sidney Crosby, Jonathan Toews, Patrice Bergeron, etc.

Unorthodox in terms of what people today seem to think of as "defensively strong" since it tends to mean that the guy is a grinder. I agree that his anticipation driving his defense is not unique.

This claim that Gretzky never played defense is made over and over. It just is not true.

 

[Killion]

I'll let others respond for Mario but for Wayne he was definitely not weak defensively. My comments are based on watching him live hundreds of time. For me he was unorthodox but not weak.

Wayne was a terrific fore-checker and back-checker. He was as good as Datsyuk in stripping pucks. His defensive game was driven like other parts of his game by his anticipation.

In his own end he played very high but that was by design. In part is was a tactic to take the opposition defensemen out of the play. No one backed off defenders like Gretzky which made it significantly easier for the Oilers to get the puck out of their end. . He was also excellent at picking off passes in his own end and transitioning the puck immediately up ice. And while completely non-physical if there was scrum along the boards Gretzky had a great knack of coming away with the puck.

As Stalins Chief Proseciror once claimed... "eyewitnesses are liars". So you Sir are either a Congenital Liar or... you were so wound out on drugs & alcohol while studying for your Doctorate in Mathematics at a 'C' Grade Post Secondary Institution in God Forsaken northern Alberta... that your memories, recollections are not to be trusted... I have photographs, a rather thick file of your youthfiul activities Komrad Fourier.... would you like I should post them?

 

[The Panther]

If we're going to do the peak / prime / career thing, I could see an argument for another player over Gretzky's career (say, Beliveau or Richard or Howe), but I cannot see an argument for anyone over him in peak or prime. Howe, Lemieux, and Orr do not match his prime. Howe and Lemieux do not match his peak. Orr is the only one who arguably matches his peak... but Gretzky destroys him in Hart trophies, Stanley Cups, and International performance.

 

[psycat]

Career - probably Gretzky, but there`s an argument for Howe.
Prime - I`d rank Howe ahead. Maybe you could argue for Bourque ahead as well.
Peak - there`s a solid argument for Orr.
Playoffs - no worse than 3rd behind Richard and/or Roy.
International tournament - probably an argument for Fetisov or Makarov.

If you look at it like that, Gretzky is probably no worse than 3rd in any category, and he has a legitimate argument for 1st in all five. Ranking Gretzky anywhere other than first isn't impossible, but it's a tough sell.

Y no. Prime is easily Gretzky, very easily at that- As is career obviously. Play-offs are somewhat debatable but would argue it isnt all that close either to be honest. Peak, as in a season or twom you got Orr+Lemieux who can legit challenge him- That said he still did about the same as them but for longer so there's that. Dont know enough about the russians to comment on international play.

 

[Oddbob]

Don't get me wrong, I think Gretzky was a genius and one of the best ever, I just think that his numbers put him in a category that sounds like he was much better than anyone else that ever played the game, and that's just not the case and what makes him overrated in my opinion. I think he had the best career from start to end, but for me Lemieux and Orr at their peaks were better players than Gretzky at his peak. I think everything played in Gretzky favour to have those kind of numbers, the Oilers offence, the 80's in my opinion were one of the weakest eras in terms of goalies in the NHL, Fuhr and Smith were the 2 best (they were good but not on the level of the best goalies of the 90's), and Roy is more associated with the 90's.

I am starting this thread because when people talk about hockey it is like it is a indisputable truth that Gretzky was the best ever, when in fact other guys have a argument for the GOAT claim.

OH DEAR! Another dis the best ever thread! If he is so overrated, how come he is the only player in the league with 2000 Pts, and not just that , but tag on 900+ more? How come he has more assists than points of the second best player ever, which includes Lemieux, Orr, Jagr and on and on and on as he is the only one. How come he is the only 8 straight Hart Trophy Winner, and I don't think anyone else even won 3 in a row. All this, while being tagged a bad skater and a weakling, he still dominated everywhere he went. They shouldn't and don't get set aside, but even if you take points out of the equation, no one dominated like he did, not even Lemieux and I think Lemieux was very very great, but even he wasn't in Gretzky's class. I am just guessing, Crosby or Toews or Ovechkin are #1 to you?

 

[shazariahl]

A lot of assists doesn't sound like a domination to me.. He was running the most productive lines on team Canada. Hence, the great stats.

Domination is when you steamroll the opposite team. When you destroy them. When you annihilate their defence. One could do it against West Germany but not against the arch rivals. How could he dominate them when his teams have lost almost half of the games against the Soviets?

Well, he won 3 CC golds and 1 silver in 4 tournaments while leading all 4 tournaments in scoring and setting a record in 87 for the most points scored in the history of the tournament. He even led in 91 despite getting injured and missing part of the last game (which kinda matters in a short tournament). I mean, you certainly can't argue that anyone else dominated more than him during this time period. As for not blowing the Soviets out like 12-2 or something, they had a great team themselves, you just seem to have ridiculous expectations. I'm not certain one could really have been more dominant against this level of competition than Gretzky was.

As others have said, he was also much better in the playoffs than Orr and Lemieux were. Gretzky was amazingly consistent in every situation.