Was trading Spezza addition by subtraction?

[ChocolateLeclaire]

8th in the NHL in goals.

Lol, we good. Plus, 5on5 >>>>>>>>>>>> PP. Ask Philly how's 3rd in NHL on PP working out for em.

While the recent surge of goals have helped during our winning streak, prior to that, the Senators lost 23 one-goal games.

Had the powerplay been anywhere near league average during that stretch, this team would be sitting in 3rd or 4th in the East with the games they could have converted from losses or OTL/SOL.

Dismissing a huge part of our game because we are scoring at a somewhat unsustainable rate right now will bite us in the @$$ later.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Sort of. Players aren't immortal. They age, the prospects good kids need icetime to develop. You can't hold on to players forever. You have to be able to say goodbye and welcome the next wave.

At the same time, it's still a real tossup. What will Paul end up being in the NHL? Is Chiasson the guy we've seen over the last couple of games, or is this just a momentary surge?

 

[Sens Rule]

Or maybe the problem was the previous coach and his system?

Cameron is huge change. Maclean was dragging us down maybe longer then just this year?

Methot being injured hurt us bad. Maybe with Spezza we win a lot more of the like 20+ one goal games early in the season. You can't bottle whatever we have right now.

But no salary cap, no $$$ issues with Melnyk... No way Legwand/Chiasson equals Spezza. But we have a salary cap and not an endless pocket book so we are better off long term without $7 million locked into Spezza.

Still imagine:

Hoffman Spezza Lazar
Michalek Turris Stone
MacArthur Zibanejad Ryan
Puempel Pageau Condra

That would be sick. 3 1A lines. All with effective speed, defensive abilities, superb offensive skills and grit.

Then we have a sick Pageau-Condra 4th line instead of third. Still gave Smith, Neil, Prince for depth.

Think anyone complains about icetime if all our best players get 14-17 mins if we are winning a ton of games?

I am not saying we should have kept Spezza. But pretending Zibby, Stone, Hoffman and Pageau emerge only under these circumstances makes no sense. Hoffman had crazy speed and crazy shot. Stone is like among the smartest and best stick in the world. Pageau is a force of will. He was gonna do what he did no matter what. Guy is an absolute warrior, force of nature... Even if it is 165 lbs of force. Zibby was a super high pick ready to emerge. Ryan, I believe was injured since we got him and much healthier this year.


The team we have is good. Because they are good. The might slightly emerge becausd of circumstance, but eventually they were gonna emerge sooner then later.

As good as Lazar and Pageau can be on faceoffs. Or Zibby or Turris... Spezza is an actual elite faceoff guy. Better then anyone we have now. A top echlon FO guy.

I don't miss Spezza, but I did miss him at first. Spezza is still outscoring every Sen but Karlsson though.

 

[Sensinitis]

Yes.

Now get rid of Phillips, Neil, maybe Legwand too.

Then improve the PP (the personnel is there, the strategy isn't), and we're golden.

 

[DrEasy]

This team played like crap even after Spezza was traded. We only improved after the coaching change and the return of Methot. I'm pretty sure Cameron would have found a way to use Spezza in a productive way. I'm not a big Spezza fan, but going from Spezza (+ Hemsky) to Legwand and Chiasson is definitely not an addition in any way.

Michalek - Spezza- Hemsky
Hoff - Ziba - Ryan
Mac - Turris - Stone
dontcare - Pageau - Condra

is a tremendous team (dat depth!), especially when leaving out MacLean's "Benny Hill" defensive system.

 

[UnHappyDude]

I'm glad Spezza's gone. Although I think the return was a little underwhelming (its still early to tell), Spezza just didn't jive wth the identity this team is trying to form.

His offensive production is going to continue declining and he just doesnt have the phsical or defensive tools to compensate.

 

[dingbatz]

It's funny what a difference a couple of months can make.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1809647&page=2

 

[Sens Rule]

Yes.

Now get rid of Phillips, Neil, maybe Legwand too.

Then improve the PP (the personnel is there, the strategy isn't), and we're golden.

See I disagree. Except on Phillips...but even then he was monster at start of the season for a handful of games.

I have been down on Smith lately... And others.

Everyone is helping is win. Everyone. Neil helped change the Pens game being Neil starting stuff near the start of ourcomeback. Greening and Smith have helped us at times. Puempel was great till he got injured. Chiasson was huge running the net to start the season and is renewed in recent games. Legwand has been pretty useful in a multitude of roles and a zillion linemates this year.

I mean we are not probably going ti resign Legwand. We have a ton of F and D signed. Who has not come up big at some point this year? Boro-Gryba were massive in Cali near the start of the run.

This is a TEAM. A good one. Michalek is not scoring then he us ripping it up. Turris is the hammer or not scoring.

Is there anyone who has done nothing? Greening has done the least but he still filled the roster without hurting us when we had a few injuries.

You know what I am hard on Lehner this year. Said we should keep Hammond instead.

Screw all that. I need to make an effort to not be negative. Maybe Lehner comes back from
Concussion and leads us to the promised land.

This is a special season. I feel, (and hope and think).

Somehow in a transition year we have like 17 F, 8 D and 3 G. This depth will not repeat itself. Somehow we have a ton of NHL players and lots of good ones at that. Add Karlsson as one of the absolute best in the world and we are golden.

So my vow is no negativity. No trade talk, no next years roster talk. Maybe we see CTC chant Prince, Prince, Prince or Neiler,Neiler or Lehner, Lehner, Lehner. Maybe Greening kills it in a playoff series.

How we are managing to never lose is special. I have watched a lot of hockey for almost 30 years. This is a crazy run. How we just do not lose is insane. We are starting to be more sloppy and we just respond by scoring 5 or 6 a game.

Now I am thinking Cup and if we somehow don't even make the playoffs I will still be happy. Watching this effort is a gift as a fan. This is why you bother to cheer and care and invest in a team. This is a great team filled with a bunch of great characters. And it has gone on longer then the streak. Longer then Cameron. How many games were we not good in? That we dis not deserve a point in? All year? 10? Less. We hung close in every game and we learned how to win.

Anyway as a die hard fan... I gotta cheer everyone now.

 

[HSF]

nope

he would make us better

i wonder what he could have done with a winger of similar IQ like Stone

 

[trobby]

Yes, the trade is making us better by letting the younger guys flourish, by giving them more minutes. And we see more returns once Paul settles in with Chiasson. We won the trade two-fold.

My old thread back in 2009. I was flammed for starting it, but after 'X' amount of years, I knew Spezza would NEVER be the guy leading the charge. Points don't equal leadership.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=613985&highlight=

 

[Dysentery]

i wonder what he could have done with a winger of similar IQ like Stone

He could take us to the playoffs...where we would be eventually beaten out. He would also hold back Zibanejad.

Spezza doesn't fit, and that's the way she goes sometimes.

^^that Colorado GDT was a good read.

 

[StefanW]

Nope, not addition by subtraction at all. We are in the middle of an amazing hot run, but prior to the current streak we were a non-playoff team that got its coach fired. People were complaining about whether Turris is actually a 1C, and out powerplay sucked (and continues to suck).

Unless someone wants to argue that trading Spezza led MacArthur to ram into Lehner, and force the team to use Hammond just as he went on a run that absolutely no one predicted, then I don't see it.

In terms of the return, it is too early to judge with Paul. Guptill is not projected as highly. Chiasson was great last night, but he has been a huge let down this season. The second round pick may end up being the best part of the pieces coming back in that trade. Moving Spezza freed up the budget room to sign Legwand, and while I don't dump on him the way some fans here do it is still safe to say that he isn't making anyone forget Spezza.

Sorry, I don't see it. This thread smacks of stuff people say when they have a goalie running a 13-0-1 hot streak.

 

[Sensinitis]

Right because it's the goalie running the 13-0-1 streak and not the team

 

[StefanW]

Right because it's the goalie running the 13-0-1 streak and not the team

Look back at the standings. We were pretty much dead even .500 and a crap load of points out of a playoff spot with the same team. Now that the team is rolling and everyone is playing looser you can argue that the team is playing much better. At the time of the collision and losing Lehner plus MacArthur to injury the team was not winning and was not looking at a playoff spot.

 

[Proust*]

Zbad is fine defensively, but he's not 'very good'.

Spezza is actually decent defensively, he had ONE bad year, where I admit, he was terrible.

And there's few that are better than Spezza at using their size to create space.

You obviously never watched Spezza. The best he ever got was "decent" defensively. On average, he did not play a 200ft game, which is why he the Sens are better off without him. If you are going to be the captain, you better be a prolific, elite offensive player or a 200ft player. In his last few years, Spezza was neither of these, but instead, somewhere in the mushy middle. It's about culture and leading by example.

Spezza was also terrible at puck protection. He never used his size well and was very susceptible to checking if he didn't have a passing outlet. Part of it had to do with the fact that he plays with puck very far from his body. During his biggest offensive years on the Pizza Line, it was Alfie who created space and time.

 

[StefanW]

You obviously never watched Spezza. The best he ever got was "decent" defensively. On average, he did not play a 200ft game, which is why he the Sens are better off without him. If you are going to be the captain, you better be a prolific, elite offensive player or a 200ft player. In his last few years, Spezza was neither of these, but instead, somewhere in the mushy middle. It's about culture and leading by example.

Spezza was also terrible at puck protection. He never used his size well and was very susceptible to checking if he didn't have a passing outlet. Part of it had to do with the fact that he plays with puck very far from his body. During his biggest offensive years on the Pizza Line, it was Alfie who created space and time.

I agree with almost all of this. My quibble is that Spezza was elite offensive up until his last year here. During the season prior to the lockout he was 4th in the league in scoring. Prior to his back injury in the lockout year he was putting up big numbers and playing great hockey. What you are saying about him offensively only applies to his last season here.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

We would be better with Spezza on top line.

 

[dingbatz]

Nope, not addition by subtraction at all. We are in the middle of an amazing hot run, but prior to the current streak we were a non-playoff team that got its coach fired. People were complaining about whether Turris is actually a 1C, and out powerplay sucked (and continues to suck).

Unless someone wants to argue that trading Spezza led MacArthur to ram into Lehner, and force the team to use Hammond just as he went on a run that absolutely no one predicted, then I don't see it.

In terms of the return, it is too early to judge with Paul. Guptill is not projected as highly. Chiasson was great last night, but he has been a huge let down this season. The second round pick may end up being the best part of the pieces coming back in that trade. Moving Spezza freed up the budget room to sign Legwand, and while I don't dump on him the way some fans here do it is still safe to say that he isn't making anyone forget Spezza.

Sorry, I don't see it. This thread smacks of stuff people say when they have a goalie running a 13-0-1 hot streak.

Even before the streak one could make a case for addition by subtraction, seeing as we were faring just about as well at the time as the previous year when he was still with us. If we were a bubble team with Spezza and a bubble team after trading him you could argue that the move was a net positive, particularly because of the importance of his assumed role as a #1C.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

He was incredible in the 2011-2012 season

The back injury in 2013 really derailled him hard

Dallas fans seem very happy with him so it might have just taken extra long to get back into it

 

[DylanSensFan]

The old guard is done and almost gone, it is time to move on and stop making threads like these. We are like dogs chasing our tails sometimes.

 

[Senscore]

Our PP would be better with Spezza.

 

[DylanSensFan]

We would be better with Spezza on top line.

Spezza is a coach killer... he has had a difficult time with almost every single coaches system. Injuries aside, he asked to be moved. Meaning he didn't care an inkling about this teams future. Now our team is closer to the playoffs than his. It would be sweet irony if we make the playoffs after Spezza suggesting we were not a playoff team. In fact, for these remaining 10 games his picture should be posted in the locker room to remind our players what he said about our team.

 

[DylanSensFan]

Our PP would be better with Spezza.

Our overall game would be worse... simply.

 

[StefanW]

Even before the streak one could make a case for addition by subtraction, seeing as we were faring just about as well at the time as the previous year when he was still with us. If we were a bubble team with Spezza and a bubble team after trading him you could argue that the move was a net positive, particularly because of the importance of his assumed role as a #1C.

Good point, although I don't buy the tie in to the assumed importance of 1C making it addition by subtraction. That argument works better IMO as a saw off where the resources needed to sign him could be used elsewhere, or that his ice time could be used to develop younger players for down the road.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Been saying trading Spezza was addition by subtraction since last season.

He was just so lazy and one-dimensional in the 2013/14 season. Team looked up to him as the captain and leader of the team after Alfie left, and Spezza proceeded to float around the ice and neglect defensive responsibilities. The young players are told to look up to and try to be like the guy wearing the C on the team, and last season it looked like they did. Team desperately needed a change in leadership and identity, and it has payed off this season.

The return we got looked underwhelming initally, but there's some value there. Chiasson has struggled this year but he's still got value as a young power winger. Paul looks like he's going to develop into an awesome player. Mid/high 2nd in a deep draft will be turned into a player by our elite scouting staff. Considering I wouldn't have re-signed Spezza for anywhere close to 7M a season, the package we got was definitely a step in the right direction for the franchise.