Was Kharlamov overrated? Mikhailov and Shuvalov chime in!

[Overrated]

Given the last conversation with @Namba 17 I decided to do another translation. This time regarding Kharlamov and whether he was or not overrated.

Shuvalov (68/69 Spartak coach and an ex soccer and hockey player who played on a line with Bobrov) gives a controversial opinion. Mikhailov keeps it diplomatic and classy.

Click to read more...

 

[Michael Farkas]

If this is your translation and video, thanks for doing this.

Do you believe this, @Overrated ? At my absolute worst interpretation of this, I come away with "former (?) socialist says, 'everyone helped everyone else'" haha

At best, Mikhailov says that we were all pieces that helped complement each other into greatness...and I do buy that. Outside of handedness, those Soviet teams were well constructed from what I could tell (it's difficult to determine what they left behind, especially early in their reign of dominance)...but Kharlamov jumps off the page.

I've already gone down the road with you on Petrov. I don't think he's in the same stratosphere as Kharlamov, not for a second. I fear that bringing down Kharlamov a peg (or more) will bring down other Soviet players here as opposed to propping up others (except Fetisov, probably).

I'm open to doing some evaluations here as time permits if someone wants to point me in the right direction.

 

[Overrated]

If this is your translation and video, thanks for doing this.

Yes it's my translation.

Do you believe this, @Overrated ? At my absolute worst interpretation of this, I come away with "former (?) socialist says, 'everyone helped everyone else'" haha

At best, Mikhailov says that we were all pieces that helped complement each other into greatness...and I do buy that. Outside of handedness, those Soviet teams were well constructed from what I could tell (it's difficult to determine what they left behind, especially early in their reign of dominance)...but Kharlamov jumps off the page.

I've already gone down the road with you on Petrov. I don't think he's in the same stratosphere as Kharlamov, not for a second. I fear that bringing down Kharlamov a peg (or more) will bring down other Soviet players here as opposed to propping up others (except Fetisov, probably).

I'm open to doing some evaluations here as time permits if someone wants to point me in the right direction.

I decided to post this after my conversation with @Namba 17 in the Kucherov thread:

Where does Kucherov rank among Russians?

When we did the Top 200 project in 2021 (wow, it's been three years since we did that), Nikita Kucherov was ranked 187, the #20 Russian player in the project. Since then, he's tallied nearly 100 goals, over 200 assists, and compiled two big playoff runs. This season, he's right in the thick of...

forums.hfboards.com

and

Where does Kucherov rank among Russians?

"Unless he kills his wife and a waiter..." - Norm

forums.hfboards.com

where he claimed Mikhailov was better than Kharlamov. All that despite calling himself #17 and having Kharlamov as his profile picture. I wouldn't say I agree but I gotta admit statistically they were near identical. That definitely cannot be said about other lines throughout Soviet history so it wasn't the system producing it.

Think of someone like Draisaitl who would however routinely outscore McDavid. Would it be fair to say he is vastly inferior just because his game doesn't look as impressive? I do agree Kharlamov looks way more impressive than either Mikhailov or Petrov. I mean when have any of them done something like this?


The thing with Petrov is that he not only routinely outscored Kharlamov but was also a defensive forward and a PK. @Batis made a very interesting post about Soviet PKs

Study of the penalty killing of Soviet forwards during the 1960-1990 time frame

It's a big advantage of having your top player being able to kill penalties. You don't have to bring players like Telegin, Kulemin and Andronov. You just put together a roster of nothing but your best.

forums.hfboards.com

Of course the sample is somewhat small (around an hour of shorthanded play) as we only have international games. Petrov again somehow ends up at just -2 of shorthanded play after 56 minutes. By the way his last WC he played centering Krutov and Makarov and guess what, he somehow outscored them both.

I would still rank Kharlamov as the best out of the three but it makes no sense to rank them significantly differently. They have the same team achievements , near identical stats and careers. The only place they somewhat differ are individual awards. Kharlamov also had the poorest longevity quite clearly struggling after the 1976 car accident.

One player I would 100% rank above however is Firsov. I totally disagree with Mikhailov when he said that they played in a completely different time lol when Firsov was just three years older than Boris and their careers and even primes overlapped. I think it's fair to say when looking at Kharlamov/Petrov/Mikhailov's or even Yakushev's domestic statistics their prime already started in the 68/69 season. Firsov's ended in 71. Firsov doesn't stand out statistically in the domestic league but absolutely does internationally against tougher competition. He was also a stocky player doing a lot of defensive work. Just look at this game, he is clearly above everyone on that Soviet team.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I wouldn't say I agree but I gotta admit statistically they were near identical. That definitely cannot be said about other lines throughout Soviet history so it wasn't the system producing it.

Think of someone like Draisaitl who would however routinely outscore McDavid. Would it be fair to say he is vastly inferior just because his game doesn't look as impressive?

Statistically, since the lockout, John Carlson and Victor Hedman are near equal. Drew Doughty and Keith Yandle, etc. is there any doubt about which way you would go?

I don't need flash to call a player better. I need contribution to the positive, to say it in a certain way. Otherwise, I'd have Rick Middleton and Alexei Kovalev over so many other players...

But just as a faux exercise...wipe the ages clean even, forget about the age, forget about contracts. The stats still happened. Scout the NHL as if there was a draft at the end of the season.

Do you consider, even for a second, taking Draisaitl over McDavid?

I certainly don't. And I don't want to go too far down the road on this because it would distract from a way, way more interesting thread...but Drai isn't on my shortlist for potential #1 picks. Or if McDavid is untouchable, he's not on my list for potential #2 picks either.

Now, that's not the be-all, end-all...players accomplish things statistically or they win awards (or are gifted awards)...they win championships...etc. that all has value too...But if you lean too far on statistics when you're in trouble, then what's the point of debating anything? Just sort by points or gin up some formula and call it a day.

But, of course, almost no one would want that, almost no one would agree with what that produces...so, where can you go? You gotta go back to talent evaluation to figure it out.

 

[jigglysquishy]

In the general NA hockey memory, Kharlamov is viewed as the de facto greatest Soviet forward and it's a wide gap until number two. This is almost exclusively from his dominating performance at the 1972 Summit Series. You can even see this in the earliest HoH lists, which have Kharlamov ahead of Makarov. So in that respects, I do think Khalarmov being viewed as the clear cut best Soviet forward is being overrated.

When the HoH did their Top 50 Non-NHL Europeans, Makarov was (rightly) regarded as the clear best Soviet forward.

I don't think there's a huge gap between Kharlamov, Firsov, and Mikhailov. But I do think they're all behind Makarov.

 

[Overrated]

Do you consider, even for a second, taking Draisaitl over McDavid?

I certainly don't. And I don't want to go too far down the road on this because it would distract from a way, way more interesting thread...but Drai isn't on my shortlist for potential #1 picks. Or if McDavid is untouchable, he's not on my list for potential #2 picks either.

I don't and I didn't even that one season when Draisaitl outscored McDavid. The thing is though that if we isolate for the last 5 years or so McDavid averages a significantly higher production on average and holds the records. Like he is clearly inferior even statistically.

By the way regarding Firsov I am not sure whether that is the game I wanted to post. I remember I made some gifs a few years ago from some of the games I saw on youtube. There aren't many anyways and in general I was very impressed with everything he did and how modern his game looked. Maybe it was the unusually high quality footage for the late 60s lol.

His game was extremely complete. These passes are an absolute beauty.

Series of passes within ~15s (I cut it to make it fit into the 10mb limit here but HFboards for some reason lowered it to 5mb so this is an mp4 version of it)

Speed and physicality

Tricks and stickhandling

Some other clips:

All of these clips come from just three games, all of which against the best two teams in Europe (CSSR and Sweden).

 

[Overrated]

Forgot this one. Firsov was also probably the only Soviet who was widely using the slap shot already in the 60s.

There is also this video on youtube featuring completely different games I think from 68.


Makarov is still my #1 Soviet forward but Firsov is #2 and I think he was clearly above Kharlamov Mikhailov Petrov or Krutov.

 

[Michael Farkas]

One of the players that really stuck out to me when I did a "blind" (not knowing the numbers/rosters) scout of the 1969 World Championships was Firsov. He seems to have been such a cut above most of the 60s Soviet players...especially in terms of his setup ability. Very impressive player that I would and have gone to bat for here...

 

[SnowblindNYR]

In the general NA hockey memory, Kharlamov is viewed as the de facto greatest Soviet forward and it's a wide gap until number two. This is almost exclusively from his dominating performance at the 1972 Summit Series. You can even see this in the earliest HoH lists, which have Kharlamov ahead of Makarov. So in that respects, I do think Khalarmov being viewed as the clear cut best Soviet forward is being overrated.

When the HoH did their Top 50 Non-NHL Europeans, Makarov was (rightly) regarded as the clear best Soviet forward.

I don't think there's a huge gap between Kharlamov, Firsov, and Mikhailov. But I do think they're all behind Makarov.

Maybe it's a generational thing but I know my dad views Kharlamov as the greatest. Maybe he wouldn't if he were born 10 years later.

 

[Overrated]

Maybe it's a generational thing but I know my dad views Kharlamov as the greatest. Maybe he wouldn't if he were born 10 years later.

It's because he passes the eye test, such a player would be beloved in every era:

 

[Crosby2010]

It would be really interesting to have seen him year after year in the NHL. I am not sure he has the career of Lafleur, or the peak value, but from what we saw of him against Canada's best he certainly could play the game. It is just so hard to know what the Soviets of that era would have done. 1980s too. We can speculate just like with Tretiak, but that's all we can do. How he does in an NHL environment without the Soviet system is anyone's guess.

 

[Fatass]

Kharlomov was like Patrick Kane. He was a fabulous player and certainly not overrated. I have no evidence but I would think the NHL players on Team Canada would have loved to have this guy on their club. He was amazing!

 

[Sentinel]

I would love to see Esposito in Dynamo Moscow.