Online Series: WandaVision - Spring 2021 on Disney+

[Tawnos]

Well yes. It's definitely inconsistent. But I think in the Cap/Thanos example it's a bit excusable with narrative context. When Cap stands his ground against Thanos, he's in a situation where he's really become the second to last line of defense. If he can't stop Thanos' advance and he gets through Wanda, everything is lost. In that scenario it makes sense that you'd see Cap pushing the very limit of his strength that you wouldn't otherwise see. But the fact that he doesn't overpower Thanos and merely holds him off for a few seconds, inviting Thanos to actually try to incapacitate him is an indicator of his limitations.

When Wanda is on the verge of killing Thanos in the final battle its a channeling of all her vengeful rage that could've killed Thanos if she hadn't been interrupted. But Thanos was still able to resist all her power for a while so there's a limitation there, even if it rests Wanda pretty squarely among the three most powerful avengers.

Here the only limitation we get is that she had a pretty fairly matched fight with Agatha. But the only reason that could happen is Agatha was capable of absorbing and siphoning Wanda's power. Past that, Wanda's grief manifested so strongly that she distorted the reality of an entire town, possessed the minds of all its inhabitants, and created physical manifestations of Vision and their children that never really were.

I mean that's more or less Wanda pulling reality stone shenanigans without the benefit of an infinity stone. And she's only supposed to become stronger now that she's embraced the power of the Scarlet Witch. I can deal with a little power inconsistency to service plot and action. But this, to me, is too far. Anything that happens in the MCU going forward will be tinged with "if Wanda were here it'd be over in a heartbeat" and I'm sure they'll use the excuse of "Wanda can't be found" as she studies in isolation but eventually she'll have to figure back into things and she'll basically be a goddess when she does. Like at this point I don't see how anyone is even close to being the strongest Avenger.

It's like the reverse of X-men apocalypse where, aside from other issues with the film, Apocalypse is shown to be so absurdly powerful that it makes the X-Men's triumph over him feel contrived and convenient. You can't have Wanda face a compelling adversity now without either having a villain or threat that is ludicrously powerful or retcon the increase in the power she gained in this series.

Like I get what they were going for with the Hex in telling a grandiose tale of grief and loss and it worked in the bubble of this series. But the implications it has going forward are rough. I kinda wish there had been some other force driving the Hex. Even it had mean Agatha was behind all of it. Or Agatha's presence amplified Wanda's capabilities to a degree that made the events of the show possible. Instead we watch 9 episodes of Wanda's power amplified grief that culminates in her going forward as basically a magical goddess with immense power. Immense power that I think steps a bit too far out of what is compelling and enjoyable.

The question here is whether or not she ends up being a reliable hero, which they left open-ended. For sure the chaos aspect of the Scarlett Witch doesn't imply reliable hero at all.

There's a fantasy series I used to read that had a ton of essentially omnipotent beings roaming around. Pretty much all of them experience some form of madness. Almost all of them are unreliable in the sense that they might help for a while, but eventually abandon those they're helping.... even when they're somewhere on the good spectrum of the D&D alignments. And most of them are too involved with whatever it is they're doing (creating new worlds, exploring different aspects of their power, etc) to bother with helping anyone outside of what they're doing at any point. Some of them also end up creating awful unintended consequences when they do try to help.

There's actually a lot to explore with essentially omnipotent characters, but none of them fit neatly into the Marvel-hero archetype.

 

[Jussi]

Anyone else watch the Assembled episode about the making of this show?

Yes. A lot of the stuff was already covered by Shakman on Kevin Smith's show.

 

[HanSolo]

The question here is whether or not she ends up being a reliable hero, which they left open-ended. For sure the chaos aspect of the Scarlett Witch doesn't imply reliable hero at all.

There's a fantasy series I used to read that had a ton of essentially omnipotent beings roaming around. Pretty much all of them experience some form of madness. Almost all of them are unreliable in the sense that they might help for a while, but eventually abandon those they're helping.... even when they're somewhere on the good spectrum of the D&D alignments. And most of them are too involved with whatever it is they're doing (creating new worlds, exploring different aspects of their power, etc) to bother with helping anyone outside of what they're doing at any point. Some of them also end up creating awful unintended consequences when they do try to help.

There's actually a lot to explore with essentially omnipotent characters, but none of them fit neatly into the Marvel-hero archetype.

I mean if Marvel/Disney had the balls to make her a villain or even more of an antihero, I'd be all for that and the growth in strength she's attained. I'll credit them for taking things further with the antihero stuff than accidentally killing people with a bomb than would've died if not for her lifting it, but it still feels like they don't want to push too far. "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them" might be one of the stupidest lines in the entire MCU. And really Agatha Harkness' inclusion wasn't a bad thing but the way the show is constructed it felt more like having a worse evil than what Wanda had done to the town and someone for her to fight so she's still a hero, because presumably, Agatha would unleash even greater evils on the world. The writers know that what Wanda was doing was objectively terrible and selfish and I think they didn't want a full blown character assassination to result from it.

But as villains and antiheroes go with respect to motivations and histories, they've laid a pretty damn good framework for that with Wanda. I don't think it gels as well with an unreliable hero dynamic. And I don't really find that dynamic all that compelling to begin with. Heroes in general should have flaws/shortcomings/limitations and make mistakes to be at least somewhat relatable or compelling. Make the same "unreliable hero" near omnipotent in strength and the question is more why aren't they more capable with the power/ability they yield and I think it's tough to make that character focus compelling.

I mean don't get me wrong. Before this show, neither Wanda or Vision were the best characters the MCU had to offer. And their relationship was half baked but at least the mere act of her having to watch her love die twice made for a great moment when she squared off with Thanos again. Elizabeth Olsen has done the best she can with the character. Especially in this show. So Wanda wasn't high on my list of favorites but instead of wanting more growth for Wanda in the MCU I kinda don't want to see Scarlet Witch make an appearance for a long time. This godlike increase in power just isn't remotely compelling to me.

 

[Tawnos]

I mean if Marvel/Disney had the balls to make her a villain or even more of an antihero, I'd be all for that and the growth in strength she's attained. I'll credit them for taking things further with the antihero stuff than accidentally killing people with a bomb than would've died if not for her lifting it, but it still feels like they don't want to push too far. "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them" might be one of the stupidest lines in the entire MCU. And really Agatha Harkness' inclusion wasn't a bad thing but the way the show is constructed it felt more like having a worse evil than what Wanda had done to the town and someone for her to fight so she's still a hero, because presumably, Agatha would unleash even greater evils on the world. The writers know that what Wanda was doing was objectively terrible and selfish and I think they didn't want a full blown character assassination to result from it.

But as villains and antiheroes go with respect to motivations and histories, they've laid a pretty damn good framework for that with Wanda. I don't think it gels as well with an unreliable hero dynamic. And I don't really find that dynamic all that compelling to begin with. Heroes in general should have flaws/shortcomings/limitations and make mistakes to be at least somewhat relatable or compelling. Make the same "unreliable hero" near omnipotent in strength and the question is more why aren't they more capable with the power/ability they yield and I think it's tough to make that character focus compelling.

I mean don't get me wrong. Before this show, neither Wanda or Vision were the best characters the MCU had to offer. And their relationship was half baked but at least the mere act of her having to watch her love die twice made for a great moment when she squared off with Thanos again. Elizabeth Olsen has done the best she can with the character. Especially in this show. So Wanda wasn't high on my list of favorites but instead of wanting more growth for Wanda in the MCU I kinda don't want to see Scarlet Witch make an appearance for a long time. This godlike increase in power just isn't remotely compelling to me.

I think it *is* true that she ended up sacrificing a lot for them, because once Vision and her kids were a reality, that's a lot to let go of. Was it the right sacrifice? Yes. I'm not so sure the average person lets them go at all. Does every sacrifice have to make amends for the previous horrible things a character did? No. I think the big debate, and something that's open to interpretation, is how conscious she was of what she was doing to all those people in the first place.

Very few of the omnipotent beings in that other franchise were ever central characters. The ones that were tended to be in situations where they were trying to help, including a very long arc of one of them trying to save his original home world from total annihilation that lasted for a couple of millennia. Very much an "unstoppable force/immovable object" kind of storyline. But this character definitely wasn't sane and also brought up a lot of "ends justify the means" kind of questions, along with the unintended consequences thing (one book described getting involved with one of them like "sleeping next to an elephant"... the elephant isn't going to purposely harm you, but it might just roll over and crush you by accident).

The unreliable hero thing isn't about the characters not being capable. It's about whether or not they cared enough to get involved. And that's the question that I think is still open for Wanda. Will she always care enough to try to save a city or even the world?

 

[HanSolo]

I think it *is* true that she ended up sacrificing a lot for them, because once Vision and her kids were a reality, that's a lot to let go of. Was it the right sacrifice? Yes. I'm not so sure the average person lets them go at all. Does every sacrifice have to make amends for the previous horrible things a character did? No. I think the big debate, and something that's open to interpretation, is how conscious she was of what she was doing to all those people in the first place.

Very few of the omnipotent beings in that other franchise were ever central characters. The ones that were tended to be in situations where they were trying to help, including a very long arc of one of them trying to save his original home world from total annihilation that lasted for a couple of millennia. Very much an "unstoppable force/immovable object" kind of storyline. But this character definitely wasn't sane and also brought up a lot of "ends justify the means" kind of questions, along with the unintended consequences thing (one book described getting involved with one of them like "sleeping next to an elephant"... the elephant isn't going to purposely harm you, but it might just roll over and crush you by accident).

The unreliable hero thing isn't about the characters not being capable. It's about whether or not they cared enough to get involved. And that's the question that I think is still open for Wanda. Will she always care enough to try to save a city or even the world?

Bold 1: I don't think there's much of a debate. She had the awareness of what someone who isn't supposed to be there with Monica and flung her out, how far someone shouldn't go within the bounds of the Hex, what will happen to her invented children and husband if they do. I can buy that she didn't know her grief would create the Hex but she for sure relished it once they had it. I mean I can see the argument that she didn't understand why Pietro looked different and that she just accepted it as part of the deal, and that maybe she didn't realize that she was possessing actual people to enact her stories, but I would think Wanda isn't so dumb that she didn't at least consider the possibility and proceeded with her grief therapy fantasy world all the same. She didn't really lift all that much of a finger to find out until she found out Agatha was a witch.

I mean yeah, considering what she's lost and how safe she felt in her fantasy, yeah it's a big sacrifice but end of the day it's small potatoes compared to people's minds being imprisoned and unable to see their own children. I mean, what Wanda did in this show is arguably the most f***ed up thing one of the Avengers has done to other people and she did it to a whole town. Of course it was the right sacrifice to make and of course it would be hard to make it. And maybe Wanda doesn't have to be perfect but the longer she carried the knowledge or at least possessed the thought that maybe the people in her fantasies were possessed, real people, the longer the people had to be tortured.

Idk. I'm not gonna wring my wrists about this because I actually like that she did something so morally dark for so long, it's a bold decision for a company that usually tends to play it safe. I was uncomfortable at first but I liked the idea that one of our heroes could be so human as to do something this wrong. I just ultimately felt that the quote at best falls flat, at worst sounds dumb. Does it take some strength of character to wipe your resurrected or created loved ones out of existence for the common good? Yeah, but at the same time Vision and the kids were manifestations of Wanda's subconscious. As real as they may have felt, they weren't. When you get down to it, the people of the town were subjugated at the expense of Wanda's fantasy time with people that didn't exist. So maybe it's a bit heroic to come to terms with that but that heroism doesn't outweigh the moral imperative to free everyone. It's less of a heroic sacrifice than it is what simply must have been done.

Bold 2: But that's just not that compelling. Even if we're to accept that Wanda is furiously studying in seclusion and not jumping into action to aid the world so that she can find a way to bring her kids and Vision back without the need for a Hex field or something like that, that really serves more as an excuse to hold Wanda out of things for a time. Which again, I don't mind. But we have to circle back to the idea that whenever she does figure back into the narrative, she's gonna need a similarly or greater omnipotent threat to face to have it work narratively because she's too strong now, and only figures to get stronger going forward. And maybe it's just me but watching two entities with a degree of power that dwarfs all the other heroes duking it out just doesn't seem that interesting to me. And the idea that Wanda didn't help save the world from threats cause she was too busy trying to properly resurrect her kids only to finally jump back into the fray feels more like stalling than an interesting character moment.

Plus it seems as obvious as hell that Vision is coming back redownloaded into his old body, so I'm sure that's the vehicle through which Wanda will re-enter the wider narrative. Maybe that can be interesting but I think it's a challenge to actually make it so. We'll see. Either way I think they pushed her too far. But that's for my tastes. I'm sure there are those that don't mind.

 

[Tawnos]

Bold 1: I don't think there's much of a debate. She had the awareness of what someone who isn't supposed to be there with Monica and flung her out, how far someone shouldn't go within the bounds of the Hex, what will happen to her invented children and husband if they do. I can buy that she didn't know her grief would create the Hex but she for sure relished it once they had it. I mean I can see the argument that she didn't understand why Pietro looked different and that she just accepted it as part of the deal, and that maybe she didn't realize that she was possessing actual people to enact her stories, but I would think Wanda isn't so dumb that she didn't at least consider the possibility and proceeded with her grief therapy fantasy world all the same. She didn't really lift all that much of a finger to find out until she found out Agatha was a witch.

I mean yeah, considering what she's lost and how safe she felt in her fantasy, yeah it's a big sacrifice but end of the day it's small potatoes compared to people's minds being imprisoned and unable to see their own children. I mean, what Wanda did in this show is arguably the most f***ed up thing one of the Avengers has done to other people and she did it to a whole town. Of course it was the right sacrifice to make and of course it would be hard to make it. And maybe Wanda doesn't have to be perfect but the longer she carried the knowledge or at least possessed the thought that maybe the people in her fantasies were possessed, real people, the longer the people had to be tortured.

Idk. I'm not gonna wring my wrists about this because I actually like that she did something so morally dark for so long, it's a bold decision for a company that usually tends to play it safe. I was uncomfortable at first but I liked the idea that one of our heroes could be so human as to do something this wrong. I just ultimately felt that the quote at best falls flat, at worst sounds dumb. Does it take some strength of character to wipe your resurrected or created loved ones out of existence for the common good? Yeah, but at the same time Vision and the kids were manifestations of Wanda's subconscious. As real as they may have felt, they weren't. When you get down to it, the people of the town were subjugated at the expense of Wanda's fantasy time with people that didn't exist. So maybe it's a bit heroic to come to terms with that but that heroism doesn't outweigh the moral imperative to free everyone. It's less of a heroic sacrifice than it is what simply must have been done.

Bold 2: But that's just not that compelling. Even if we're to accept that Wanda is furiously studying in seclusion and not jumping into action to aid the world so that she can find a way to bring her kids and Vision back without the need for a Hex field or something like that, that really serves more as an excuse to hold Wanda out of things for a time. Which again, I don't mind. But we have to circle back to the idea that whenever she does figure back into the narrative, she's gonna need a similarly or greater omnipotent threat to face to have it work narratively because she's too strong now, and only figures to get stronger going forward. And maybe it's just me but watching two entities with a degree of power that dwarfs all the other heroes duking it out just doesn't seem that interesting to me. And the idea that Wanda didn't help save the world from threats cause she was too busy trying to properly resurrect her kids only to finally jump back into the fray feels more like stalling than an interesting character moment.

Plus it seems as obvious as hell that Vision is coming back redownloaded into his old body, so I'm sure that's the vehicle through which Wanda will re-enter the wider narrative. Maybe that can be interesting but I think it's a challenge to actually make it so. We'll see. Either way I think they pushed her too far. But that's for my tastes. I'm sure there are those that don't mind.

Yeah Vision is coming back.

I didn't think the expulsion of Monica was quite so conscious of an action. More like automatic defense mechanism. Not saying that to excuse her or anything. And I agree, I think the line fell flat, but it didn't upset me or anything. Monica was saying it from a point-of-view where she herself was still grieving, too, so I don't think it's coming from such a strange place for her.

 

[HanSolo]

Yeah Vision is coming back.

I didn't think the expulsion of Monica was quite so conscious of an action. More like automatic defense mechanism. Not saying that to excuse her or anything. And I agree, I think the line fell flat, but it didn't upset me or anything. Monica was saying it from a point-of-view where she herself was still grieving, too, so I don't think it's coming from such a strange place for her.

I suppose but it comes on the heels of some well justified public ostracism. I see your point but it's also kind of like. Even if they knew, you think they'd give a shit? My money's on no.

 

[Kurtz]

I think there was one thing that really elevated this show above shows like The Mandalorian and the Netflix Marvel shows, and that was the acting.

Those other shows are typically mostly poorly acted with an occasional strong performance (ie Vince D'onofrio and Charlie Cox), but in this show everyone mostly held their own, with Olsen being quite good and Bettany amazing.

 

[Guardian17]

 

[Guardian17]

 

[HanSolo]

I think there was one thing that really elevated this show above shows like The Mandalorian and the Netflix Marvel shows, and that was the acting.

Those other shows are typically mostly poorly acted with an occasional strong performance (ie Vince D'onofrio and Charlie Cox), but in this show everyone mostly held their own, with Olsen being quite good and Bettany amazing.

Bettany's scene where he lost his shit on Wanda in their argument was peak MCU acting.

 

[Jussi]

Bettany's scene where he lost his shit on Wanda in their argument was peak MCU acting.

A lot of people seem to think the both deserve Emmy nominations but I wonder in what category? Miniseries is going to be stacked with The Queen's Gambit.

 

[HanSolo]

A lot of people seem to think the both deserve Emmy nominations but I wonder in what category? Miniseries is going to be stacked with The Queen's Gambit.

I mean no way Olsen has a chance against Anya. As performances go hers was one of the best across the MCU but Anya Taylor Joy was in frontrunner form from start to finish in Queen's Gambit. Maybe Bettany could take one.

 

[Jussi]

I mean no way Olsen has a chance against Anya. As performances go hers was one of the best across the MCU but Anya Taylor Joy was in frontrunner form from start to finish in Queen's Gambit. Maybe Bettany could take one.

I could see set design and/or wardrobes getting nominees, as well. Maybe writing, even directing. But yeah, miniseries is stacked. In addition to Queen's Gambit, I can see The Haunting Of Bly Manor getting some nominations too. But can you put it in "regular" drama category, to have a better chance of winning? Or go for miniseries and just be happy with the nominations?

 

[HanSolo]

I could see set design and/or wardrobes getting nominees, as well. Maybe writing, even directing. But yeah, miniseries is stacked. In addition to Queen's Gambit, I can see The Haunting Of Bly Manor getting some nominations too. But can you put it in "regular" drama category, to have a better chance of winning? Or go for miniseries and just be happy with the nominations?

I think the latter. Until the Emmys get to the Grammys level of popularity contest standards I don't think the MCU has much chance of winning anything other than technical awards.

 

[Jussi]

I think the latter. Until the Emmys get to the Grammys level of popularity contest standards I don't think the MCU has much chance of winning anything other than technical awards.

I think it's also a case of luck with the competition. Without Queen's Gambit, WandaVision's chances might be much better.

 

[HanSolo]

I think it's also a case of luck with the competition. Without Queen's Gambit, WandaVision's chances might be much better.

Yeah but I mean in a non pandemic world it would likely face even more competition.

 

[beowulf]

One thing I haven't read anywhere for sure yet is if this series, and the other Marvel ones, will mostly be one off series with no "second season". If this leads into the Multiverse of Madness etc. I would be surprised is it did though with Vision getting his memories back and taking off they could explore that depending on if he is in the next Dr.Strange movie or not.

Seems almost like the Netflix Defenders series, a limited run series.

 

[Jussi]

Yeah but I mean in a non pandemic world it would likely face even more competition.

Many of the shows likely to be in contention were finished before the pandemic began. For example Bly Manor was shot in December 2019. I'm not sure if there would have come out that many shows without it.

 

[HanSolo]

Many of the shows likely to be in contention were finished before the pandemic began. For example Bly Manor was shot in December 2019. I'm not sure if there would have come out that many shows without it.

I mean sure but I'm sure plenty of projects got held off in the hopes that the pandemic would end soon.

Either way I think it would take something transcendent out of the MCU to be an award contender.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

If they can replicate Wandavision, I think the problem they're gonna run into is that the characters, "relegated", to TV are more intriguing than the ones that get movies, because you get lengthy character development.

Wandavision took a relatively, "Meh", character and turned her into arguably the most deep and likable character in the MCU. To the degree that I'm a hell of a lot more excited to see Wanda in Dr. Strange than Dr. Strange.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Finally got around to binging this. I really enjoyed how it was portrayed. I think this somewhat justifies why Wanda's powers seemed so overlooked in the Avengers movies. And why it was in a sitcom form was clever.

IMO this was a excellent way to build Wanda's backstory and really get fans to understand her. I do not think that a stand alone movie would have nearly been as successful. This sitcom format was excellent.

One of the lingering questions post-Endgame is how will the MCU be able to keep the average fan, who does not have a ton of comic book knowledge, engaged? Particularly with heroes like Iron Man gone.

This show did a great job table setting future events in the MCU (the second Dr Strange and Captain Marvel movies). It definitely gets me more intrigued into those movies.

Also did a nice job introducing Monic's post-snap story and her rise in the MCU. I also believe they could be setting Agatha up for a Loki-type role in this phase of the MCU. Katheryn Hahn was excellent and she would be perfect in that type of role over multiple projects.

I think my only lingering questions are what the heck happened to White Vision, and how did Agatha even get in Westview in the first place?

Edit - to add, they could be developing a richer backstory for Wanda (as they did in Infinity War with Thanos) to develop some depth and sympathy for her character if she breaks bad in MOM .. The obvious theory is that Dr Strange knows The Scarlett Witch across all other multiverses is evil, and likely this one is no different hence a conflict. At least this may be part of the storyline.

 

[NyQuil]

It's funny how North American audiences have such a difficult time with the concept of a mini-series.

I've read a bunch of columns about how "What? No Season 2 to Wanda Vision?" and "What's in store for Falcon and Winter Soldier Season 2?".

I think it was clear from the very beginning that these were both intended to be standalone stories that tie in to other film and future TV projects.

The last thing the MCU wants to do is bog themselves down into making repetitive seasonal stories. Not to mention, I doubt the type of actors who are working in the MCU want to do it.

 

[John Price]

I was watching over the Behind the Scenes Marvel Assembled story of this series and the amount of detail they put into research and adhering to classic eras to the point where they brought in a studio audience is amazing. Would recommend.

 

[ItsFineImFine]

I watched The Queen's Gambit actually and while enjoyable, it was a really overrated one-note performance by the lead. Elizabeth Olsen was far better imo. Don't really care about awards but agree that these marvel shows have had better acting than Mandalorian excluding the Sword/Flagsmashers budget stuff.