Maurice showed how much he disdains smaller D by playing the big, lumbering Pionk and Morrissey as his top two D the past couple of seasons.
Player Discussion: Ville Heinola
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He played Forbort and Benn and Stanley and Poolman all slow and unskilled defencemen. They got destroyed by a bunch of quick skilled forwards. Both Morrisey and Pionk are small players but neither play small. No matter how big you are if you can’t get there your size is useless.
yeah that line of Staal Perry and Armia skated circles around everyone.
maybe boyd listened to the games on the radio.
maybe boyd listened to the games on the radio.
- Dec 29, 2016
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- Dec 29, 2016
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After watching Weber, Edmundson, Petry and Chiarot shut the Jets forwards out from in front of Price, and Morrissey, Pionk, and Poolman allow Perry, Staal and Armia among others to get to the net, I think Chevy will move a ‘small’ Heinola if it means getting a true top 4 dman with size, skill and bite to play with both lumbering Morrissey or Pionk.
I think Mo was foreshadowing next year by saying it’s a challenge to have more than one rookie added in a year.
That rookie I think will be Samberg next year. He may not start the season with Jets but will get plenty of games next year, IMO.
That rookie I think will be Samberg next year. He may not start the season with Jets but will get plenty of games next year, IMO.
I see Gus and Heinola making the team out of TC.
Gus, Vesalainen and Samberg would be my guess. Perfetti might get a shot if Stastny is not resigned.
You don't see Heinola making the team out of TC?
I think Slamberg makes the team next year but I don't think it will be out of TC.
I don’t think Heinola is a Jet this fall. If he is, he’s in the lineup, yes.
PoMo called him ‘small’. I don’t see the Jets building a d corps with mostly ‘small’ players like Morrissey, Pionk, DeMelo and Heinola. Not enough size or physicality.
Out of those four, Heinola seems to be the player most likely to move. I don’t think he’ll out score Pionk, and is not replacing Morrissey though that is the player he should replace.
Edit: if the Jets are successful in acquiring a top 4 dman, where does Heinola slot in? 3rd pairing? A pairing PoMo uses for pking? Top 4? Perhaps but then you are pairing Heinola with Pionk, two smallish dmen. Just don’t see it. I see Slamberg with Pionk in that scenario, Morrissey with newly acquired player and Stanley with DeMelo.
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voyageur
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You still have to gauge what division we are going to be in next year. If it's the Central and you are matching up against Makar and Girard in Colorado, Josi-Ellis in Nashville, Spurgeon and Dumba in Minnesota, Keith and Boqvist in Chicago, Heiskanen in Dallas, there is room for the small d-men in hockey. St. Louis defense isn't bohemoth either, with Krug back there. I definitely think there is a place for 190 to 200 lb defensemen in the NHL, which Heinola need to grow into.
The other thing is you can mitigate a smaller defense by having good strong centres in puck support. If the centre group is Scheif, Dubois, Lowry, Gustafsson, I think those are strong enough players to win one on one battles, or use physicality to help with zone clears. Scheif gets accused of cheating a bit, but he had a real honest playoff I thought, so there is room for improvement.
I'd be taking my time with Heinola. You might have a gem, and there are ways to get him in the lineup. Samberg isn't a slam dunk yet, and I think it would be huge boost to the team to have some genuine depth starting to amass at LD. To make this team work maybe a defenseman eventually moves to his offside.
Heinola-Morrissey
Samberg-Pionk
Stanley-De Melo
could be a competitive defense, I believe. I'd be penciling Heinola in with Simon Lundmark on the Moose to start 2021-22, and maybe work on a filler.
I mean it would be nice to have a solid top 4, like Vegas, or Montreal, but I think the Jets need to build on experience to make progress. Samberg trained with Pionk last season so there should be some good communication. Stanley and De Melo were excellent in that aspect. Morrissey being the captain, and a very intelligent player, would be a good choice to mentor Heinola. I think in turn Heinola could add some offense that Morrissey may be limited in bringing to the Jets.
I think a 1-2 year contract through trade or free agency offers a buffer, to build some depth into the farm system, which allows for some load management of key players. So that if a Morrissey or Pionk did go down, we would not suffer from a lack of talent to replace them. And with some experience I think it could become easier to convert a player to his offside.
If the Jets have a strong season from Kovacevic, it is possible to get a rather heavy defense out of Stanley, Samberg, Kovacevic, one that can clear creases well.
Unless the trade is a oneoff for Braden Schneider I wouldn't be moving Heinola. I expect Ville to be the Jets leading scoring defenseman within 3 seasons.
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If they don't bring in a 1RHD, I sure as hell hope DD is playing with JMo.
They were a bona fide 1st pairing in the playoffs.
I don't think JMo can "carry" a partner but if his partner can hold his own and he doesn't have to worry about him, he is a very effective D man.
JMo -DD
Slamberg -Pionk
Heinola/Stanimal -?
Split the 3LHD between Heinola and Stanimal depending on who you're playing against?
Nothing wrong with each player getting 40 games.
One of them and Poolman as our 7th and 8th D men isn't bad.
Thing is, I can't see Maurice starting two rookies AND Stanimal.
I still say a re-signed Connor Murphy would look good in a Jets uni depending on how expensive he is.
They were a bona fide 1st pairing in the playoffs.
I don't think JMo can "carry" a partner but if his partner can hold his own and he doesn't have to worry about him, he is a very effective D man.
JMo -DD
Slamberg -Pionk
Heinola/Stanimal -?
Split the 3LHD between Heinola and Stanimal depending on who you're playing against?
Nothing wrong with each player getting 40 games.
One of them and Poolman as our 7th and 8th D men isn't bad.
Thing is, I can't see Maurice starting two rookies AND Stanimal.
I still say a re-signed Connor Murphy would look good in a Jets uni depending on how expensive he is.
Last time a Central team won the Cup, was the Blues with their big physical d corps.
Chicago won cups without a hulking d corps but did have some size and physicality to them too. Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, etc. and Keith in Norris winning form.
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I agree with this, but also this doesn’t move the needle very much on improving our d corps which is a huge need this off-season. If we’re banking on Samberg outperforming Forbort to a large degree and Heinola playing some 3rd pairing minutes, how much better are we really?
voyageur
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Chicago is exactly the model I think the Jets should follow. They had Keith, Hjalmarsson, Oduya, Timonen all under 200 pounds. Good skaters who could play physically, block shots. We've seen that Morrissey, and especially Pionk can play physically.
I think the issue with the Jets is systematic. Their man to man coverage gets broken down once teams pull the defense above the circles. Other thing is the Jets don't use their speed to fly the zone. Sneak Connor or Ehlers behind a defense, and defenses will have to respect that. The more the defense improves, and improves in the area of quickness, I think we'll be able to turn the play upwards. Even at 19 Heinola showed signs of being an elite puck mover. That's not something I would want to trade away. Especially to address the "size" issue. I think that issue will have to be resolved by having our centres play a strong support game. In these playoffs it was fun watching Adam Lowry play that role, where he was always in position to support his defense. Getting those results out of more offensive minded centres like Scheifele and Dubois, who also have the physical edge, would help our defense grow into a very respectable group. That could stay together for a while (if we mitigate the expansion draft, could have Morrissey, Pionk, Stanley, De Melo, Heinola and Samberg for the next 3 years, to build up some chemistry).
The trend is for bigger defenses to win these days, in the tighter checking playoffs, but rather than be a follower, like to see the Jets become leaders. That means doing away in part with slow moving vets, and playing with more speed throughout the lineup. That's how I would be trying to get out of the Central division.
Good post, and I agree.
We've been a fast, skilled team for a long time now, but haven't always played like it.
Imagine how different that Mtl series might have been if we'd had a quick, active and skilled PMD on the back end who could get to pucks faster, gain possession and then transition effectively, allowing for a stronger forecheck, the odd stretch pass, greater and more effective possession through the NZ, releasing our speedy wingers, setting up for opportunities off the rush or the cycle, not constantly turning over pucks, not being hemmed incessantly in our own zone, not relying on Helle to save us, etc.
Yeah, sometimes you need size and strength on D -- but if you have the puck most of the time and transition it quickly you don't have to depend on Hulk to clear your crease and rim the puck our time and time again. Our problem isn't having wee lads getting plastered into the boards all game -- it's not getting to the puck quickly enough, losing possession or never gaining it, and turning it over quickly by chucking it pointlessly up-ice on the rare occasions we do have it.
I was bemused by Mo's "stacked on the left side" comment, but it's telling. I really, really hope we don't ship out Heinola + for a guy like Savard, but I'm worried that we might. And I agree with @Zhamnov5GoalGame that a 22 year-old Ville is likely to give a 28 year-old JMo serious competition for that 1LHD spot, if not sooner. I don't see Stanley or Samberg having anywhere near his upside, really, despite their quality and utility.
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The other interesting tidbit is that Buff notwithstanding Pionk is one of the more physical legit top 4 D man we have had. He hits allot, targets the other teams stars, and has an edge. Trouba and Chiarot (borderline top 4 for us) were bigger and more rugged but Pionk hits more often. He is the Jet that is disliked and under the skin of other teams fan bases the most. Well of course until Scheifs heel turn.
Absolutely -- the guy is a legit pest, and is a PITA to play against -- and can burn you going back the other way that virtually none of our other D manage. I expect quite a few opponents would rather try their luck with him over Benn, Boo, or any number of physical D we've fielded.
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You set up your pairing so that you have both size and the transition game the smaller guys might bring.
It's easy to say that size isn't a need if you have the puck all the time - but you are usually defending without it until you can take it away from the offense.
You don't need "Hulk" - you need guys that can over power players and break up plays.
There needs to be some middle ground in these discussions before we start throwing away players like Stan and Samberg because they don't have "anywhere near" the upside of small players who are better with the puck than without it.
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Housley was one of the most elite young offensive defensman in the history of the NHL. That is not Ville’s game he is a puck mover who is smart but he doesn’t have elite offensive pedigree.
Numminen was 6’1” and 195 so he was bigger than Ville and one of my favourite pure defenders.
As far as right now Ville goes I “like” his skill and love his IQ. Both elements were on full display at the world juniors and on the Moose. Once he got to the NHL I wasn’t sold on his defensive talent yet. Hope he gets a shot here at some point because he is more talented than the filler we have trotted out the past two seasons, however he is small and not a vet so this could take some patience.
Oh, I agree. But for me the decision is then between Stan and Samberg, not Ville and Stan + Samberg. No way are they going to move JMo, and even if they tried who is taking on that contract?
I don’t thimk the Jets can afford throw away any skilled D, of any size.And I’d argue that you’re maybe trading one narrative for another with the “better with the puck than without it” — Pionk is a good example of a smaller player who is plenty good both with and without the puck. JMo has been also — though not so much in the past two seasons. And Heinola has showed that he can be very effective at separating player from puck, while Stanley has struggled to do so at times, especially against quicker, skilled opposition — though he’ll get better.
I suspect we’re really arguing for the same middle ground, a mix of size and skillsets, without filling the lineup with some of the bigger, unskilled D we’ve seen the past few seasons who do nothing especially well.
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I couldn't disagree more with this point -
I'll leave it at that - we're too far apart to get into this
Edit: I do agree with your last point - we need size and skill
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Given Chevy came from the Blackhawks that could very well be the model we are building to and that is the model we have the most pieces for imo.
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