Advance Notice: I will not be posting further on this subject -- and I certainly won't be responding to posters who confront me -- because my experience on this forum is that any attempt at a rational discussion about Messier's time in Vancouver brings out the worst in posters (a small minority of Canuck fans) who feel it is their sworn duty to loudly denigrate anything to do with Messier in this particular time frame.
With that out of the way, I will now present some cold, hard reality for those who might have been around at that time or who aren't well-versed in the topic (because I wouldn't want them to believe a lot of the stuff posted so far in this thread):
Accusation #1: Messier's arrival destroyed the team
REALITY: The Canucks were already well-into a sharp decline before Messier arrived.
Before Messier:
94/95: 18-18-12 (2nd place)
95/96: 32-35-15 (3rd place)
96/97: 35-40-7 (4th place, missed playoffs)
With Messier:
97/98: 25-43-14 (7th place, missed playoffs)
98/99: 23-47-12 (4th place, missed playoffs)
99/00: 30-29-15-8 (3rd place, missed playoffs by four points)
In retrospect (and at the time, if anyone was looking at it rationally), it's obvious that the early-90s' Canucks team was falling apart from about 1995, and the free-agent signing attempts of Gretzky in '96 (Wayne was willing but Canucks' Stan McCammon, reporting to John McCaw, botched it), and Messier in '97 (successfuly), were desperate moves to prop-up a team in decline. Mess's arrival in autumn '97 coincided with the team's nadir circa 1997-98... whether he was there or not.
Accusation #2: Messier demanded Wayne Maki's retired #11
REALITY: #11 was NOT retired, and it was the Canucks management that told Messier he could wear #11 before he arrived in Vancouver, without consulting the Maki family
Like, duh! This is supposed to be Messier's fault?? An obscure player, who died when Mess was 8 years old (in the middle of violent stick-fight), is supposed to be on a free-agent's mind in 1997 as he's looking for a multi-million dollar deal? How is a brand-new free-agent signing supposed to have "respect for (Canucks') history"? Isn't that managements' job? Is Messier supposed to come into the dressing room, see his #11 practice jersey, and immediately say: "Attention! After my careful off-season study of Canucks' history, I -- on my first day here -- refuse to wear the jersey management has given me because I know a lot about an obscure player!" (cue standing ovation from dressing room)
From The Vancouver Sun, October 18th 1997:
No. 11 was re-issued to new Canuck captain Mark Messier this season after 23 years out of circulation. Beverly Maki was not contacted before the Messier signing July 28 and was shocked to discover her husband's number had been re-issued watching the news conference on television. She doesn't object to Messier wearing No. 11 but would like the number retired again following Messier's career.
Around this time (just after?), Beverly Maki said: "We've offered to let Mark wear it for the three years he plays here and then we want them to retire the number again."
In fact, Pat Quinn had told Messier that everything had been taken care of before he arrived, but in fact no one from the Canucks had contacted the Maki family. Canucks' management deserve 100% of the blame here, and it is to them that fans should express their anger.
Accusation #3: Messier demanded Linden relinquish the captaincy
REALITY: Linden offered it to Messier freely
When Messier signed in Vancouver at the '97 press conference, he was asked about the captaincy and he publicly endorsed Linden, saying there was no reason to change the captain. However, years later, Linden admitted he felt had had no choice but to give up the captaincy because if the team failed, he was going to get second guessed. That is, Linden completely chickened out at the moment the team was going into a decline. (I don't necessarily fault Linden, though, because it seems that he was under pressure -- probably from Canucks' management, again -- to defer to the high-priced veteran they'd just signed.)
Somehow, Canucks' management subtly pressuring Linden to consider giving up the 'C' has been twisted into "The-evil-Messier-told-noble-Linden-to-give-him-the-'C'-now-or-else!". What Linden should have done here was man-up and do exactly what he told the BC-media he planned to do in September 1997 -- keep the 'C' and just let Messier be another veteran leadership presence in the room. Linden chose not to do what he had planned to do.
Accusation #4: Messier's presence dispirited the Canucks' dressing room
REALITY: The Canucks' dressing room was in a shambolic state, with Linden as captain, from at least 1996, if not 1995.
From LCS-Hockey (1997):
In the summer of 1995 . . . Once holdout captain Trevor Linden was signed, that was supposed to be the year the Canucks took their offense to the next level. Instead . . . rumors of strife and conflict swirled around players and coaching staff alike. After months of speculation, Pat Quinn fired his taciturn coach, Rick Ley, and stepped behind the bench himself....
So, in the summer of 1996, Quinn addressed the dissension in the dressing room by hiring a young, articulate "players’ coach", Tom Renney. Changing the mood was supposed to fix the vibe in the Vancouver dressing room and once again, come training camp, fans were cautiously optimistic about the fresh start. Once again, it didn’t take long for the vision to unravel.... A few big-margin losses quickly drained away all the promised team-spirit, so in-fighting and finger-pointing became the team traditions in a year where the Canucks failed to make the playoffs for the first time this decade.
This is all one year or more before Messier arrived. (Wait, wasn't Linden supposed to be the perfect captain...?) In spring 1997, when Esa Tikkanen and Russ Courtnall were both picked up by the Rangers at the deadline, they both commented publicly on how dysfunctional the Canucks' team was at that time.
Years after Messier left, people like Markus Naslund and Brian Burke have repeatedly praised Mess's leadership qualities during that difficult period for the franchise. (The only Canuck I'm aware of who threw Mess under the bus is that notable Hall of Famer, Gino Odjick, whose 15-minutes of local fame were up by then.)
Accusation #5: Messier's play was terrible & he was hated by Canuck fans
REALITY: Messier's play was passable, considering his age, and he was voted team MVP by the Vancouver fans in 2000
Remembering that Messier was 36 to 39 years old, his point production was:
1998 - 0.73 PPG (3rd on the Canucks)
1999 - 0.81 PPG (2nd on the Canucks)
2000 - 0.82 PPG (2nd on the Canucks)
Since the Dead-Puck era started (roughly 1998 forward), Mess's 0.82 PPG is the 10th-highest in the NHL among 39, 40, and 41-year-olds (min. 40 games played). And most of the names above him played on considerably better teams.
And, again -- this is the hard one for Canucks' fans to swallow -- Messier was voted team MVP for 1999-2000 by Canucks' fans. This, when he was almost 40.
(Five years from now, will Alex Ovechkin be able to get 0.82 PPG? I doubt it.)
Messier's MVP-of-team status in 2000 was probably well deserved. The 1999-2000 Canucks went through a stretch where they won just 3 times in 16 games without injured Mark Messier in the line-up -- and in those final 30 games with Messier, they won 15 games and collected 37 points, missing the playoffs by just 4 points. In that 30 game playoff push, Messier had 26 points. In other words, had 39-year-old Mess not missed some games, they'd probably have made the playoffs in 2000.
Clearly, Messier was not at his best in Vancouver (duh!), and he was not as physically or defensively engaged as during his salad years. But that's exactly what you'd expect from someone his age -- like, say, Joe Thornton today with San Jose.
I could go on, but that's enough...
CONCLUSION:
The Canucks from 1997 to 2000 sucked, with or without Messier. Obviously Messier didn't play that well (though not that bad either), nor did the team, but only a loser-mentality would attempt to pin this on one player. THE FACT IS THIS WAS A NON-PLAYOFF TEAM, AND ALREADY IN DECLINE, BEFORE MESSIER ARRIVED.
The Canucks'-management is mainly to blame for bringing in Messier when it should have been obvious that a youth-movement led by up-and-comers was what was needed, not a pushing-40 veteran, who -- by virtue of his weighty contract -- would be forced into playing big minutes.
At the end of the day, Messier had about 17 brilliant, Hall of Fame seasons (1980-1997) when he was the 2nd to 4th best center in hockey, the winningest player (along with Trottier, Lowe), and he was widely popular and respected by fans, teammates, and media. He is one of the greatest hockey leaders of all time, and his reputation there is fully deserved. His piddly three years on the west coast playing for a team in decline is never going to change that.
Counterpoints:
Point #1:
The Canucks were three games below .500 in 1995-96 and five games below .500 in 1996-97. In both years, the team dealt with significant injuries. Namely, Pavel Bure was absent for all but 15 games of the 1995-96 campaign due to his knee injury.
In 1996-97, Bure suffered all season from a neck injury, hampering his ability to play at his usual level. Trevor Linden played only 49 games as a result of an MCL sprain and later a rib injury.
Linden adds heart to Canucks: Canuck captain, still suffering from torn rib cartilage, makes surprise return to lineup.: [FINAL Edition]
MacIntyre, Ian.
The Vancouver Sun; Vancouver, B.C. [Vancouver, B.C]27 Mar 1997: C.1.
Linden missed the previous eight games due to his rib injury, sustained on March 8 when cross-checked by Detroit Red Wing Vladimir Konstantinov. In December and January Linden missed 24 games due to torn knee ligaments.
Over-matched defence crew killing Canucks: Injuries to Jyrki Lumme, Bret Hedican and Chris Joseph add to defensive woes as Vancouver losing streak reaches four games.: [FINAL Edition]
Pap, Elliott.
The Vancouver Sun; Vancouver, B.C. [Vancouver, B.C]02 Jan 1997: F.1.
Tom Renney and the Canucks are in a 3-9-1 pickle because Quinn has been unable to provide sufficient blueline depth to overcome the loss to injury of Jyrki Lumme, Bret Hedican and Chris Joseph.
Canucks' sick bay still full: Vancouver's injured include Bure, Linden and Roberts.: [FINAL Edition]
The Vancouver Sun; Vancouver, B.C. [Vancouver, B.C]21 Mar 1997: C.4.
The most talented forward line for the Vancouver Canucks watches from the press box late in the NHL season.
Sniper Pavel Bure, captain Trevor Linden and versatile Dave Roberts are injured and their return is not imminent.
Bure suffers from recurring headaches stemming from a whiplash injury suffered in the league opener back in October.
Linden has sore ribs and hasn't played since March 8, while Roberts has a hip problem that won't go away.
Earlier this week, the Canucks also had netminder Kirk McLean, defenceman Jyrki Lumme and forward Sergei Nemchinov on the sidelines with various ailments.
The Canucks were unable to trade for immediate help at the deadline this week because of their lengthy injury list.
Linden and McLean had been mentioned in several trade rumors.
``We have played reasonably well, considering our depth,'' Canucks coach Tom Renney said this week after a 1-3-1 road trip.
The Canucks are concerned about the slow recovery of Bure.
The Boston Bruins had allegedly proposed sending Adam Oates to Vancouver in exchange for Trevor Linden, one-for-one. The Canucks declined.
Vancouver not on Oates' itinerary: Bruins wanted Trevor Linden for 34-year-old centre straight up, but Canucks declined.: [FINAL Edition]
MacIntyre, Iain. The Vancouver Sun; Vancouver, B.C. [Vancouver, B.C]26 Feb 1997: E.2.
As the hockey world buzzed Monday over the trade of Toronto Maple Leaf Doug Gilmour, it became clearer in the happy little land of the Vancouver Canucks that Adam Oates likely isn't coming here and Russ Courtnall isn't staying.
...
And a source close to Oates said the 34-year-old could be going to the Canucks as part of a package that would see Vancouver captain Trevor Linden go to the Bruins.
But Canuck assistant general manager George McPhee said late Monday afternoon that the club had not spoken recently with the Bruins. Asked if it were possible Linden could be involved in a trade with Boston, McPhee said ``definitely not.''
``We've talked to them -- we've talked to every team -- but I wouldn't say anything is happening,'' McPhee said. ``It was a while ago.''
The Bruins asked several weeks ago for a straight Oates-for-Linden swap, but the Canucks flatly refused that proposal.
The Canucks struggled in the 1995-96 and 1996-97 seasons as result of missing their stars. Linden was an 80-point player and a Selke Trophy candidate in 1995-96, but the team missed Bure. They faced the 1996 Stanley Cup Champion Colorado Avalanche in the first round of that year's playoffs, losing in six games. The next season, not only were Bure and Linden hurt, but the team had other injuries to top players. They missed the playoffs by a mere four points as a result.
Point #2:
One of the Messier's contract demands was the #11 (see #9 in the following image).
A look at the handwritten contract Mark Messier signed with Canucks in 1997 (PHOTOS) | Offside
This was written into his contract. It was part of his brand a la #99 for Gretzky and #66 for Lemieux. A precedent had been set in Vancouver for players not to wear #11. Chris Oddleifson, the Canucks' captain in 1976-77, changed his number to fourteen after Maki's death.
A respectable leader would have chosen to change his number out of respect for the family. To the Makis, the #11 was a symbol of a departed family member; to Mark Messier, the number #11 was part of his image. Messier's insistence that he continue to wear #11 prompted a response from Oddleifson. He was aware of the family's grievance, but opted to have the team's management defend his use of the number.
The Maki family lobbied unsuccessfully for three months in private. Their insistence that the number was retired suggests that they wanted it to remain that way; when they chose to make their story public, they seemed to offer some concessions so that the team would listen. This was not a significant issue in my article, but we can discuss it here.
The team was also responsible for this mishandling of the number, likely due to the fact that #11 was included in the contract. One must recall that the Canucks were one of many suitors for his services, and he took advantage. They were obligated to honor his request. I thought he could have handled this situation better by changing his number out of respect for the team's history and the wishes of the Maki family. His brand was much more important.
Maki jersey status unresolved: [Final Edition]
Pap, Elliott. The Vancouver Sun; Vancouver, B.C. [Vancouver, B.C]17 Oct 1997: C1 FRONT.
The widow of Wayne Maki, the Vancouver Canuck winger who died of brain cancer 23 years ago, is still upset that the Canucks refuse to acknowledge her husband's No. 11 jersey was retired following his death.
The number is currently being worn by new Vancouver captain Mark Messier. Canuck management contends the number was never officially retired, but merely taken out of circulation, before being issued to Messier on July 28.
Beverly Maki, through her lawyer George Majic, has written Canuck president Pat Quinn three times and forwarded documentation to his office, offering proof that No. 11 was in fact retired following the 1973-74 season. As well, there has been a number of telephone conversations between parties representing both sides. Not satisifed with the Canuck responses, Beverly Maki opted to go public this week.
...
"When I came over in the [Bob] Schmautz trade, I wore No. 11 for the remainder of the season but when I came to training camp in the fall, I was told the No. 11 was retired because of Wayne's death," Oddleison said Thursday. "The Canuck argument is that jerseys are retired because of service. Mrs. Maki is not looking for an ounce of money. She's appealing to the Canucks on a humanitarian stance, not a legal one. She is offering a win-win situation."
Messier, told Thursday of the family's emotional reaction to the issue, said he would be more than happy to meet the Makis.
"Yes, I'm aware No. 11 was worn by Mr. Maki and I have offered to do numerous things," Messier said. "I've had numerous talks with Pat and he assured me not to worry about it, he was taking care of it. We even talked about doing some kind of ceremony."
Majic said the Makis have remained quiet since Messier's signing and have been trying to resolve what to them is a very sensitive and important matter.
...
"We have been very patient," said Majic, a Fernie lawyer and longtime friend of the family. "I wrote to Pat and said `do the right thing, make the family happy.' The Makis would never deny Mark wearing No. 11. Mark Messier is a total class act. and the family would consider it a great honor for him to wear the shirt. We're not trying to embarass anybody here. All the family wants is maybe a photo-opportunity -- and a little respect for a husband and a dad."
They relented, allowing the number to be temporarily un-retired as long as Wayne Maki's memory was honored in the some fashion.
Point #3:
I've addressed this point in the article. The team could not co-exist with Messier looking in from the outside. Linden knew that; Leetch knew that. Messier admitted that he would not be providing as much leadership without being in the role of captain. He was brought to Vancouver for leadership.
Obviously, it was a mistake to allow him to operate" as usual."
Ex-captain lightens his load
Starkman, Randy. Toronto Star; Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]03 Oct 1997: E.2.
Messier conceded he had been holding himself back to a degree in some areas because of his status as a new member on the team.
"Obviously when Trevor was captain, there's certain things that you don't do to step in the way of the leader of the hockey club. There's no question about that. For me right now, it's business as usual, trying to do the things I've done over the last eight, nine years."
Could he have not just done things as usual without taking the captaincy? Who would say this? Messier inferred that to conduct his behavior as he did in New York without the "C" on his chest would be to interfere with role of the group's leader. He could not just be himself without it.
Over the course of the year, he and Mike Keenan hijacked the dressing room and effectively ousted the other leaders.
Point #4:
The controversy with regards to the team's dressing room had much to do with the team's coach, Tom Renney. This was the grievance that numerous players had when they left. Renney was a rookie NHL coach, and his experience came from coaching junior-aged players. His greatest flaw was his treatment of the players as if they were kids. His systems were excessively complex. This is what Russ Courtnall said when he was traded.
Frankly, it reminds me of the experience of Oilers players with Dallas Eakins in Edmonton -- "fat-free this and fat-free that."
Bored of education: Life with Canucks like being back in school: Tik, Russ: [Final Edition]
Tony Gallagher and staff reporter. The Province; Vancouver, B.C. [Vancouver, B.C]22 Apr 1997: A48 / FRONT.
On Monday, Russ Courtnall and Esa Tikkanen went on the record with descriptions of life under Canucks coach Tom Renney this season and it is a picture that needs to change for the club to go forward.
"It was like being back in school," said Tikkanen. "You had a guy who had been in the league 17 years (Dave Babych) who was being told what he could do and what he couldn't do with his life."
"Since I've come to the Rangers, I've seen how they treat the players and what a team atmosphere should be," Courtnall said. "The guys are relaxed and joking around and serious when they have to be. There is pizza and beer on the bus and the plane and everyone is talking, playing cards and enjoying each other's company.
"In Vancouver, the coach would take things off the plane. We'd get on and there would be fat-free this and fat-free that. A lot has been made of this beer on the charters thing, but you can't be following professionals around telling them what they can eat and can't drink."
Renney responded that the complaints were about "minor rules" and that players were treated as adults this season.
"Anyone can disagree with what a coach does or doesn't do," Renney said. "There's no question we're doing the right thing in Vancouver."
Shovel the blame on coach Renney: [Final Edition]
Macrae, Neil. The Province; Vancouver, B.C. [Vancouver, B.C]27 Mar 1997: A76.
Renney has to be held as much, if not more, responsible for this disastrous season as anyone because his team looks like it hasn't had a practice all year.
Many of the players complain they don't get enough time away from the rink, that Renney skates them too much.
You wouldn't believe that after seeing them play. General manager Pat Quinn has to be doing some serious second-guessing about his decision to hire Renney. It's obvious his players have quit on him.
This is what Alexander Mogilny said about Renney:
Mogilny just wants to win: Happiness is a winning season says Canuck Alexander Mogilny as free agency looms July 1.: [FINAL Edition]
MacIntyre, Iain. The Vancouver Sun; Vancouver, B.C. [Vancouver, B.C]14 Apr 1997: D.3.
And even the coach is good enough for Mogilny, who earlier in the season was upset with Tom Renney over his lack of playing time.
``It was his first year,'' Mogilny said of Renney. ``And you've got to realize the first year for anybody is tough. I thought he came around. Coming from junior and the national team, it's a different ball game than here.
``There's no kids on this team. It's all grown-up men. I hope he understands that. I hope he'll learn because he's got a good mind for hockey. He's learning to work with his key players and understand what they need. It's not like you need to baby guys. I thought he came around quite a bit toward the end.''
Mogilny claimed he never disliked Renney, but believed the coach did not like him because Mogilny wasn't playing as much as he did last season. Renney conceded Sunday he did not know how to handle elite European players, but said he will learn from his mistakes.
Renney's heart was in the right place, but, in Mogilny's words, he treated the players as if they were "kids."
The team needed a players' coach. Nevertheless, they missed the playoffs by just four points even with all of the injuries and the objections of some to Renney's dressing room culture. Their result was commendable in light of the circumstances. They would have been a playoff team had they been healthy. It was the first time since 1989-90 that Linden did not play a full season and also the first time that they missed the playoffs since 1989-90. There's a correlation.
The following season, the team fell to 18 games under .500 with the Messier and Keenan distractions. The Renney experience paled in comparison. They finished last in the Western Conference.
Point #5:
Mark Messier's play was terrible. I've provided ample footage, unless you are confident enough to say that this was the norm for Messier.
Messier was a fantastic player in his prime. He was intense and powerful. In Vancouver, he coasted and was criticized for his careless, lackadaisical efforts; you can see that in the presentation above.
His level of interest rose in the final year, showing that he was capable of playing that way
throughout his time in Vancouver. He became the leader of a young pack of players. His situation as the team's sole leader may have inspired him. I've cited in my article a quotation in which he admits having evolved his approach over the course of the three seasons.
