Vegas can be quite a bit better in their first year than we seem to think

ItWas41

Registered User
Mar 10, 2015
64
2
Toronto
There seems to be varying opinions about how Las Vegas will do in their first year, but most people put them as a lottery team or below average at best. However, if Vegas makes the right decisions in terms of selecting some of the hidden gems available to them in the expansion draft, they can easily be a respectable team.

First off, I believe the best course of action is for Vegas to say **** off to all the teams offering them draft picks in exchange for not picking a player or two. I find it highly unlikely that Vegas will come out on the better end of any of those deals.

In particular, looking at the situation in Anaheim with both Sami Vatanen and Josh Manson available, I don't think Anaheim can offer up anything worthwhile. Vegas should be pouncing on Josh Manson, since his shot suppression abilities are off the charts. If Vegas accepts a simple 1st round pick or a 1st and a 2nd, that's just pure highway robbery by Anaheim. I don't want to get into draft pick values too much, but a late 1st is basically a crapshoot, never mind the fact that Vegas likely does not have a strong scouting stuff at the present moment. If a late 1st turns into Josh Manson, you should be jumping with joy. The only time I even consider a deal with Anaheim is if they offer both a 1st and Shea Theodore in exchange for not picking Manson. In other words, Vegas would get a 1st, Shea Theodore, and Vatanen instead of Josh Manson. That may seem like a hell of a package, but if Anaheim doesn't like it, then Vegas just goes on its happy way with Manson.

To construct Vegas' lineup, I used CapFriendly's Expansion Draft Tool (https://www.capfriendly.com/expansion-draft) and OwnThePuck's Hero Charts (http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/). To evaluate it, I used OwnThePuck's Lineup Creator (can't seem to find the original link, but it was used in this article: https://theleafsnation.com/2017/05/12/offseason-fun-with-ownthepucks-lineup-creator/).

So here's the lineup that Vegas can ice if they ignore any deals with other clubs:
Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_5_11_16_PM.png

Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_5_10_44_PM.png

Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_5_11_03_PM.png


Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_4_16_03_PM.png


So, OwnThePuck's model predicts that Vegas can be a 110+ point team. Obviously, that's way too much to expect out of Vegas. Perhaps OwnThePuck's model is flawed (maybe expecting the same performance when low-usage players are given higher usage) or perhaps the Hero Charts that I used to select Vegas' players overvalue certain types of players. As well, all the players making up this team will be new, and largely unfamiliar with each other. New players, a new coach, and a new city mean that Vegas will likely not get off to a great start. However, if Vegas is able to persevere, they can be in a respectable position by the year's end. I think that reaching 90 points is definitely possible. The key factors are how well and quickly Vadim Shipyachov is able to adjust to the NHL game and how smart George McPhee is in his selections and trades in order to secure a lineup like the one I made to begin with.

Since there is no data available for Vegas' KHL superstar signing Vadim Shipachyov, I used Sam Gagner to approximate Shipachyov's impact. Shipachyov is regarded as a potent scorer with strong playmaking abilities, while facing some issues with his all-around game. As such, Gagner is a decent substitute, since he has strong offensive statistics, but poor shot suppression as Shipachyov will likely produce. I think it is definitely reasonable to say that Shipachyov, who is one of the KHL's best players, will have at least a 2016/17 Gagner-like impact. However, if you prefer a different substitute, I've used Jason Spezza, Logan Couture, and Kevin Hayes, who are all also decent comparables, as well.

Substitute: CF% / GF% / Expected Points/82 Gms
Spezza: 57.2% / 57.7% / 112.2
Couture: 56.8% / 57.4% / 111.1
Hayes: 56.7% / 57.4% / 111.0

The goaltending cannot be accounted for in the Lineup Creator tool, so we can say that the predictions assume that the given lineup has average goaltending. With Marc-Andre Fleury, Petr Mrazek, and Joonas Korpisalo on the lineup, it's safe to say that Vegas will receive at least average goaltending.

My lineup is compliant with the salary cap, with plenty ($12 million given the confirmed $75 million cap) of space available. After Shipyachov's contract is accounted for, Vegas still has $7.5 million to play with, putting them in a very good position.

Vegas' potential is reinforced when you consider the trade chips and free agency options they have available. The on-ice lineup I used in the Lineup Creator above still leaves Erik Condra, Seth Griffith, Mikhail Grigorenko, Matt Dumba, Kevin Connauton, Trevor van Riemsdyk, Frederik Claesson, Nate Schmidt, Linus Ullmark, and one of Petr Mrazek or Joonas Korpisalo on the bench. These extras are probably enough to acquire another strong 2nd liner (perhaps on the weak right wing) and, maybe, if packaged with one of the defensemen in the lineup, enough to acquire a true first pairing defenseman. Having Matt Dumba as a trade chip is very enticing.

Selecting a player from Minnesota was especially challenging for me, not just between Matt Dumba and Marco Scandella, but Eric Staal, who had a very good rebound year, as well. I went with Dumba because he is significantly younger. If Vegas picked Staal and he had a similar year next year, they could be looking at an even stronger team in the short term. However, I've heard that Staal somewhat gave up in his last years in Carolina due to the poor teams they iced and for that reason I'm not sure if he is the best pick for Vegas. If Staal is willing to work in Vegas though, maybe they could select him and Calvin DeHaan from the New York Islanders instead of Ryan Strome due to the increased centre depth. In this case, Vegas could maybe get the rumoured 1st round draft pick from New York. The lineup would then look like this:

Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_4_30_38_PM.png


In this case, the lineup is starting to look pretty good, not just in terms of hidden gems, but also in terms of the typical perception of these players. DeHaan is not included on-ice because his impact is not as strong as any of Dan Hamhuis, Brayden McNabb, or David Schlemko on the left side. DeHaan would likely be used as a trade chip in this case.

Now, if we look at an even more positive scenario, where Vegas is able to sign top free agent TJ Oshie, and the Lineup Creator tool projects Vegas to be pretty much the Stanley Cup favourite (59.2 GF% is insane):

Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_4_33_20_PM.png


Vegas could maybe even select an NHL-ready forward at the 2017 draft if they offered a package like #6 + #15 (New York) + #24 (Columbus) for #2 (Philadelphia). This is based on the rumoured deals Vegas is believed to be looking at.

Anyway, Vegas fans, I think you are in for some watchable hockey to say the least. If McPhee and the rest of Vegas management realizes what they have and makes some smart decisions, even the postseason is not out of the question.
 

DucksAreCool

Registered User
Feb 24, 2015
1,147
1
You're disregarding the fact that some teams (like Anaheim) have already made deals with Las Vegas and that's the only reason some players are listed as "available" when they really aren't. Because the deal has already been made and there's no need to protect them through the system set up because the deal already does so.

Las Vegas does look set to get a good prospect and pick haul though. They could have a bottom 10 NHL level team this season but if they play their cards right one of the best, top 5 young player pools almost right from the jump.
 
Last edited:

A1LeafNation

Good, is simply not good enough!
Oct 17, 2010
27,520
17,537
You're disregarding the fact that some teams (like Anaheim) have already made deals with Las Vegas and that's the only reason some players are listed as "available" when they really aren't. Because the deal has already been made and there's no need to protect them through the system set up because the deal already does so.

Las Vegas does look set to get a good prospect and pick haul though.

I think its so cute Anaheim fans think McPhee wont take the best deal to make his team better.

Pretty sure this is how the McPhee/Murray Convo went:

GM: You want us to take Vatanen, make me an offer.
BM: Vatanen + 2017 1st

GM: Okay, if I don't get any offers better, I'll take it. I will let you know and you have the opportunity to give me a better offer by Wednesday.
BM: Okay.
 

M2Beezy

Objective and Neutral Hockey Commentator
Sponsor
May 25, 2014
46,161
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There seems to be varying opinions about how Las Vegas will do in their first year, but most people put them as a lottery team or below average at best. However, if Vegas makes the right decisions in terms of selecting some of the hidden gems available to them in the expansion draft, they can easily be a respectable team.

First off, I believe the best course of action is for Vegas to say **** off to all the teams offering them draft picks in exchange for not picking a player or two. I find it highly unlikely that Vegas will come out on the better end of any of those deals.

In particular, looking at the situation in Anaheim with both Sami Vatanen and Josh Manson available, I don't think Anaheim can offer up anything worthwhile. Vegas should be pouncing on Josh Manson, since his shot suppression abilities are off the charts. If Vegas accepts a simple 1st round pick or a 1st and a 2nd, that's just pure highway robbery by Anaheim. I don't want to get into draft pick values too much, but a late 1st is basically a crapshoot, never mind the fact that Vegas likely does not have a strong scouting stuff at the present moment. If a late 1st turns into Josh Manson, you should be jumping with joy. The only time I even consider a deal with Anaheim is if they offer both a 1st and Shea Theodore in exchange for not picking Manson. In other words, Vegas would get a 1st, Shea Theodore, and Vatanen instead of Josh Manson. That may seem like a hell of a package, but if Anaheim doesn't like it, then Vegas just goes on its happy way with Manson.

To construct Vegas' lineup, I used CapFriendly's Expansion Draft Tool (https://www.capfriendly.com/expansion-draft) and OwnThePuck's Hero Charts (http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/). To evaluate it, I used OwnThePuck's Lineup Creator (can't seem to find the original link, but it was used in this article: https://theleafsnation.com/2017/05/12/offseason-fun-with-ownthepucks-lineup-creator/).

So here's the lineup that Vegas can ice if they ignore any deals with other clubs:
Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_5_11_16_PM.png

Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_5_10_44_PM.png

Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_5_11_03_PM.png


Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_4_16_03_PM.png


So, OwnThePuck's model predicts that Vegas can be a 110+ point team. Obviously, that's way too much to expect out of Vegas. Perhaps OwnThePuck's model is flawed (maybe expecting the same performance when low-usage players are given higher usage) or perhaps the Hero Charts that I used to select Vegas' players overvalue certain types of players. As well, all the players making up this team will be new, and largely unfamiliar with each other. New players, a new coach, and a new city mean that Vegas will likely not get off to a great start. However, if Vegas is able to persevere, they can be in a respectable position by the year's end. I think that reaching 90 points is definitely possible. The key factors are how well and quickly Vadim Shipyachov is able to adjust to the NHL game and how smart George McPhee is in his selections and trades in order to secure a lineup like the one I made to begin with.

Since there is no data available for Vegas' KHL superstar signing Vadim Shipachyov, I used Sam Gagner to approximate Shipachyov's impact. Shipachyov is regarded as a potent scorer with strong playmaking abilities, while facing some issues with his all-around game. As such, Gagner is a decent substitute, since he has strong offensive statistics, but poor shot suppression as Shipachyov will likely produce. I think it is definitely reasonable to say that Shipachyov, who is one of the KHL's best players, will have at least a 2016/17 Gagner-like impact. However, if you prefer a different substitute, I've used Jason Spezza, Logan Couture, and Kevin Hayes, who are all also decent comparables, as well.

Substitute: CF% / GF% / Expected Points/82 Gms
Spezza: 57.2% / 57.7% / 112.2
Couture: 56.8% / 57.4% / 111.1
Hayes: 56.7% / 57.4% / 111.0

The goaltending cannot be accounted for in the Lineup Creator tool, so we can say that the predictions assume that the given lineup has average goaltending. With Marc-Andre Fleury, Petr Mrazek, and Joonas Korpisalo on the lineup, it's safe to say that Vegas will receive at least average goaltending.

My lineup is compliant with the salary cap, with plenty ($12 million given the confirmed $75 million cap) of space available. After Shipyachov's contract is accounted for, Vegas still has $7.5 million to play with, putting them in a very good position.

Vegas' potential is reinforced when you consider the trade chips and free agency options they have available. The on-ice lineup I used in the Lineup Creator above still leaves Erik Condra, Seth Griffith, Mikhail Grigorenko, Matt Dumba, Kevin Connauton, Trevor van Riemsdyk, Frederik Claesson, Nate Schmidt, Linus Ullmark, and one of Petr Mrazek or Joonas Korpisalo on the bench. These extras are probably enough to acquire another strong 2nd liner (perhaps on the weak right wing) and, maybe, if packaged with one of the defensemen in the lineup, enough to acquire a true first pairing defenseman. Having Matt Dumba as a trade chip is very enticing.

Selecting a player from Minnesota was especially challenging for me, not just between Matt Dumba and Marco Scandella, but Eric Staal, who had a very good rebound year, as well. I went with Dumba because he is significantly younger. If Vegas picked Staal and he had a similar year next year, they could be looking at an even stronger team in the short term. However, I've heard that Staal somewhat gave up in his last years in Carolina due to the poor teams they iced and for that reason I'm not sure if he is the best pick for Vegas. If Staal is willing to work in Vegas though, maybe they could select him and Calvin DeHaan from the New York Islanders instead of Ryan Strome due to the increased centre depth. In this case, Vegas could maybe get the rumoured 1st round draft pick from New York. The lineup would then look like this:

Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_4_30_38_PM.png


In this case, the lineup is starting to look pretty good, not just in terms of hidden gems, but also in terms of the typical perception of these players. DeHaan is not included on-ice because his impact is not as strong as any of Dan Hamhuis, Brayden McNabb, or David Schlemko on the left side. DeHaan would likely be used as a trade chip in this case.

Now, if we look at an even more positive scenario, where Vegas is able to sign top free agent TJ Oshie, and the Lineup Creator tool projects Vegas to be pretty much the Stanley Cup favourite (59.2 GF% is insane):

Screen_Shot_2017_06_18_at_4_33_20_PM.png


Vegas could maybe even select an NHL-ready forward at the 2017 draft if they offered a package like #6 + #15 (New York) + #24 (Columbus) for #2 (Philadelphia). This is based on the rumoured deals Vegas is believed to be looking at.

Anyway, Vegas fans, I think you are in for some watchable hockey to say the least. If McPhee and the rest of Vegas management realizes what they have and makes some smart decisions, even the postseason is not out of the question.

I think thell have a better record then the Canucks next year and probably a brighter future because there getting tons of picks and future assets right now and because the Canucks have Linden/Benning running us into the ground FAST right now
 

Uncle Scrooge

Hockey Bettor
Nov 14, 2011
13,573
8,178
Helsinki
I think its so cute Anaheim fans think McPhee wont take the best deal to make his team better.

Pretty sure this is how the McPhee/Murray Convo went:

GM: You want us to take Vatanen, make me an offer.
BM: Vatanen + 2017 1st

GM: Okay, if I don't get any offers better, I'll take it. I will let you know and you have the opportunity to give me a better offer by Wednesday.
BM: Okay.

That's not how it went. Here's how it really went:

GM: What are your plans Bob? Im assuming you're going to do something your D situation ?

BM: Yeah you're right. Im shopping Vatanen as we speak and there's some interest, already got a few offers as you've probably heard. Bieksa agreed to waive his NMC if needed, so i have to get something for Vatanen as i've decided im not going to let Manson go exposed. You'll be happy to select from scrubs. Unless, we come up with a deal.. I'd rather take the middle ground and keep Vatanen, what do you want from us ?

GM: Figured this would happen. I'll tell you what, give me XXX and you don't have to go all that trouble. I'll get something worthwhile, and you get to keep Vatanen. Deal ?

BM: Deal.

And after the deal was agreed upon, Murray didn't bother asking Bieksa to waive his NMC so both Vatanen and Manson are "exposed".
 

PAZ

.
Jul 14, 2011
17,463
9,838
BC
I think its so cute Anaheim fans think McPhee wont take the best deal to make his team better.

Pretty sure this is how the McPhee/Murray Convo went:

GM: You want us to take Vatanen, make me an offer.
BM: Vatanen + 2017 1st

GM: Okay, if I don't get any offers better, I'll take it. I will let you know and you have the opportunity to give me a better offer by Wednesday.
BM: Okay.

McPhee has already done that in his perspective.

The deal is already made, it simply just can't be announced until Wednesday.
 

TheTechNoir

fall 2021 bull, probably
Feb 18, 2013
4,668
1,795
Err. Yeah. That roster is closer to 2016-17 Avalanche than it is to 110 pts. Lol. None of your suggestions or directions to take/tactics make any sense to me. Or using Logan Couture and Sam Gagner as an equivalant of each other.
 

hairylikebear

///////////////
Apr 30, 2009
4,177
1,803
Houston
This entire analysis is based on taking team influenced individual advanced stats out of context and adding them up together. It's also circular logic because the players are chosen based on this metric for the sole purpose of maximizing this metric, and the logic that adding this all together correlates to team success.

It would be one thing if this lineup was chosen based on the eye test and then validated by advanced stats, but this entire exercise is just a demonstration of the incorrect way to evaluate stats.

This prediction might be coincidentally accurate but I am not buying any stock in the quality of analysis.
 

CBJx614

Registered User
May 25, 2012
14,995
6,620
C-137
Vegas COULD be really good.


But they won't this year because a lot of teams are making side deals to make sure who they want is taken and I'm sure a good chunk of them will include picks, prospects and futures. So while Vegas might not be a playoff team this season, they'll be in really good shape for the future and in much better shape than Minnesota and Columbus were.
 

Vankiller Whale

Fire Benning
May 12, 2012
28,802
16
Toronto
This entire analysis is based on taking team influenced individual advanced stats out of context and adding them up together. It's also circular logic because the players are chosen based on this metric for the sole purpose of maximizing this metric, and the logic that adding this all together correlates to team success.

It would be one thing if this lineup was chosen based on the eye test and then validated by advanced stats, but this entire exercise is just a demonstration of the incorrect way to evaluate stats.

This prediction might be coincidentally accurate but I am not buying any stock in the quality of analysis.

Ding ding ding.
 

SB84

Registered User
Jul 22, 2015
1,784
183
Calgary, AB
Vegas COULD be really good.


But they won't this year because a lot of teams are making side deals to make sure who they want is taken and I'm sure a good chunk of them will include picks, prospects and futures. So while Vegas might not be a playoff team this season, they'll be in really good shape for the future and in much better shape than Minnesota and Columbus were.

Yup. They're going to have a lot of firsts this year and a few more next year too. They're just waiting until Reid Duke hits his prime.
 

WilliamNylander

Papi's home
Jul 26, 2012
12,896
2,608
I stopped reading at 110+ point team

These models seriously undervalue the impact of elite talent. A bunch of depth players who can drive play in a sheltered role isn't going to get you to the playoffs.
 

CBJWerenski8

Formerly CBJWennberg10 (RIP Kivi)
Jun 13, 2009
42,465
24,416
They could have been competitive, but they chose to make tons of side deals for picks. Which is fine, but they won't be good.
 

Ryan Michaels

Registered User
Mar 21, 2017
4,275
5,639
You're disregarding the fact that some teams (like Anaheim) have already made deals with Las Vegas and that's the only reason some players are listed as "available" when they really aren't. Because the deal has already been made and there's no need to protect them through the system set up because the deal already does so.

Like there is no ****ing deal in place that Ducks fans keep talking about that makes any sort of sense. I mean I get it I would be in denial about losing Manson as well. I mean anything that gets talked about on here is nowhere near worth missing out on Manson, the only hope you guys have is that we are dealing with GMGM.
 

DMR

Registered User
Apr 29, 2010
510
6
I just think this whole thing is sleazy. It's not enough they get to pick over the league's rosters, they also get to pull in a haul of picks and prospects in side deal agreements not to touch certain players. Seems right out of the KHL or something.

The league should've just used a little common sense and moved the Coyotes (sorry Coyotes fans).
 

CBJSlash

Registered User
Aug 13, 2003
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The main thing that is interesting about this expansion roster is it is a preview of the trade deadline next year.

They've said pretty clearly they are building it the "right way".
 

Perfect_Drug

Registered User
Mar 24, 2006
15,725
12,205
Montreal
On the contrary, I think there's a few teams with worse futures than Vegas right now.

Colorado, Vancouver, Detroit, Arizona.


Vegas is going to have a stacked blue line, and some decent wingers. They'll be a bubble team for sure.
 

talkinaway

Registered User
Mar 19, 2014
6,973
4,126
On the couch
Vegas isn't going to be as good as the model predicts, and it's for the very reason I love hockey so much: teamwork. You're taking 30 people who, for the most part, will never have played a game with each other. Most teams have an established core of players who are the backbone of the team, and are very familiar with how their team's system works, as well as with the strengths and weakness of each of their teammates. In October, teams may be about 60-70% "old hat" players who are used to each other, and 20-30% fresh players, either from the AHL or other teams...and because most teams start this way, it's even.

And while international teams are made of players who may not know each other as well...that's true for every international team. It's a level playing field. Vegas won't be on a level field with other teams in terms of synergy.

Vegas will invariably involve a bit of chaos, particularly at the start....but I think it will linger longer than for other teams. Instead of having 20 people who've read the map and 10 people who have to follow along until they get the hang of it, you'll have 30 people trying to figure out what the hell's going on.

That's not to say Vegas won't have some good players...I've seen a few surprisingly good Vegas team drafts today. Better than I thought it would be. And they may not be a complete dookiestorm. But if I'm judging Vegas, I'm grading on a very lenient curve.
 
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Rich Nixon

No Prior Knowledge of "Flyers"
Jul 11, 2006
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Key Biscayne
I do think they will be better than the last expansion teams (CBJ and Nash) had the chance to be, thanks to the salary cap. They have the option to put together a team with good, upcoming talent and a couple established vets. Their first line will look like a bad first line, as opposed to a third line. They also pretty much control the goalie market for a summer, which if played right could set them up with a good net and a handful of free assets.
 

Puikiou

Registered User
Oct 15, 2013
1,538
2,423
If Vegas was indeed going for the best team right now, they could build a fairly young, yet very potent one.

Radulov - Shipachyov - Neal
Cammalleri - Strome - Smith
Boedker - Dano - Rust
Bouma - Eakin - Stempniak
Yakupov, Leipsic, Josefson, Mcginn

Johnson - Manson/Vatanen
Methot - Dumba
Koekkoek - Bogosian
TVR, Del Zotto, Mcnabb, Reinhart

Mrazek
Grubauer
Pickard, Raanta, Subban
 

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