Confirmed with Link: Vanek to the Wings, 1 year 3 million with a NTC

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

An interesting take, but I don't think a healthy Fischer really would've had any effect on the Lidstrom/Suter debacle. Considering they still would've lost Rafalski and then Lidstrom, they probably still would've gone after a top pairing Dman when Suter hit the UFA market.

IMO, A healthy Fischer probably means no Markov in 06-07 and then no Stuart trade in 07-08, which obviously would've given them back a 2nd in 08 and a 4th in 09.

The Quincey deal would be a toss up.

IIRC, at the time of the Quincey deal, the Red Wings already seemed pretty confident that they had Suter in the bag to replace Lidstrom. The factors in acquiring Quincey were them already anticipating the loss of Stuart to free agency due to his family situation (which obviously would've been negated if a healthy Fischer meant no Stuart trade), and there was also them wanting immediate depth because Babcock didn't want to use Kindl or Commodore on the 3rd pairing. Given the 3rd pairing depth issue, maybe they instead go with a rental since Fischer would be in tow and they may not have the cap flexibility to re-sign Quincey as an RFA. Then again, Holland wasted little time giving the cap space from the departing Stuart and then some to the combination of Samuelsson, Colaiacovo, Tootoo and Gustavsson, and re-signing Quincey, so maybe they do still make the Quincey trade...

I'm not saying they'd have not gone after Suter. But they would not have needed a minute crunching D in Quincey because they'd have had Fisch. But they would have had Kronwall, an uninjured at that point Ericsson, Fischer, and a few other lesser guys (Commodore, Cola, Kindl, etc.)

They certainly would have gone after Suter. And with the fact that they had 3 top 4 guys without him and he's not necessarily being asked to be the one shining light saving the Red Wings... maybe it changes that negotiation a bit. If nothing else, a healthy Fischer stops the terrifyingly desperate signing of Cola in 2012 and potentially the dog and pony show of 14 where they tried for any defenseman capable of top 4 minutes and got told no by them all and then had to bring Quincey on a raise after they basically kicked him to the curb.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It really, really isn't, but I'm not surprised that you want to pretend that it is.

Most teams really, really don't find elite players every other year. Even by a fairly loose definition of the word "elite".

 

[Shaman464]

I'm not saying they'd have not gone after Suter. But they would not have needed a minute crunching D in Quincey because they'd have had Fisch. But they would have had Kronwall, an uninjured at that point Ericsson, Fischer, and a few other lesser guys (Commodore, Cola, Kindl, etc.)

They certainly would have gone after Suter. And with the fact that they had 3 top 4 guys without him and he's not necessarily being asked to be the one shining light saving the Red Wings... maybe it changes that negotiation a bit. If nothing else, a healthy Fischer stops the terrifyingly desperate signing of Cola in 2012 and potentially the dog and pony show of 14 where they tried for any defenseman capable of top 4 minutes and got told no by them all and then had to bring Quincey on a raise after they basically kicked him to the curb.

The what-if game is so hard though. With Fisch they may have never traded for Stuart or gone after Rafalski, arguably the final pieces in the 08 cup run. Then again, they may have beaten Edmonton or Anaheim in years prior and won multiple cups. Or maybe Fisch never lives up to the hype and the team never has to sign Brett Lebda, who in my opinion was the best running joke in team history.

 

[izlez]

Most teams find elite players almost every year.

Most elite players play 15-20 years

20 years of drafting X 75% chance of drafting at least 1 elite player per year

Most teams currently have at least 15 players on their roster

Holland has 0. Fire Holland!

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Most teams find elite players almost every year.

Most elite players play 15-20 years

20 years of drafting X 75% chance of drafting at least 1 elite player per year

Most teams currently have at least 15 players on their roster

Holland has 0. Fire Holland!

Most teams have 15 elite players?

It is closer to there only being 15 elite players in the entire league than that.

 

[njx9]

Most teams really, really don't find elite players every other year. Even by a fairly loose definition of the word "elite".

I'll take some of the blame for the phrasing, but this feels like a really dishonest reading of what I wrote.

"And yet teams find elite players just about every year."

This was the key phrase here. Just about every year, a team has found an elite player.

"Well, most teams do."

Most teams have found one at some point in the last twenty years. We haven't.

 

[Ezekial]

Most teams have 15 elite players?

It is closer to there only being 15 elite players in the entire league than that.

The more I look at that post the more I think they were just refuting that most teams find elite players every year, because on face value it make no sense.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The more I look at that post the more I think they were just refuting that most teams find elite players every year, because on face value it make no sense.

They must have been. That's why I was confused. I've learned to take people at face value for what they say on here first and then be corrected when it's sarcasm I've missed than the other way around.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I'll take some of the blame for the phrasing, but this feels like a really dishonest reading of what I wrote.

"And yet teams find elite players just about every year."

This was the key phrase here. Just about every year, a team has found an elite player.

"Well, most teams do."

Most teams have found one at some point in the last twenty years. We haven't.

And? in the fifteen years prior to that... we landed Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg. If not for the league's records being wonky, we would have had another in Pavel Bure.
In 1984-1999, we had quite literally six Hall of Fame players that we drafted (or would have drafted if the league had accurate records) along with several other potential Hall of Fame caliber players (Ozzie and Konstantinov for instance)

All of this smacks of being spoiled rather than an actual complaint. The Wings have been rolling in elite players and as such, have only had their first two top ten picks since 19-****ing-90 in the last two years. How many teams found their "elite player" in the top ten?

Depending on how you want to term "elite", the Wings could have two guys right now who are well on their way to it and a third who certainly has the pedigree to be. (Larkin, Mantha, Zadina) If you want to consider a guy like Mark Schiefele as elite in this "can find every other year", then Larkin is that. Hell, Larkin isn't even far off of Nathan MacKinnon, statistically. while being on arguably a worse hockey team.

And lastly, I get a little bit sick of people putting arbitrary timelines on things to make them seem like the worst things ever. "Oh, we haven't drafted an elite player in 20 years..." We won four Cups in those twenty years. We played for a 5th. We, essentially, played for a 6th in 2007 against Anaheim. In real terms, here is what we've gotten.

And realistically... the dearth of talent from the draft has been caused by a 5-6 year window where they got nothing of value from the draft (coincidentally during their best three year run since 96-98 in playoff runs.) Early 2000s has little to do with the weakness in their roster. Kronner, Franzen, Filppula, Hudler. That's a top pairing D and three top 6 forwards in the 2000, 2002, and 2004 drafts. They got very little from 2005-2012. It looks as though drafting is picking up again. Five likely top 6 forwards taken in the first two rounds in the last six drafts (Larkin, Mantha, Zadina, Rasmussen, Bertuzzi), another who is a wild card with a lot of talent (Svechnikov).

 

[SCD]

I consider elite to be HOF likely.

 

[njx9]

All of this smacks of being spoiled rather than an actual complaint. The Wings have been rolling in elite players and as such, have only had their first two top ten picks since 19-****ing-90 in the last two years. How many teams found their "elite player" in the top ten?

Can no Wings fan ever be upset about bad drafting for the rest of time because the team did really well in the 90s? That's ridiculous. It's like calling Wings fans who want to win in the future spoiled because "By god they won a Cup in 2008! What the heck else do you want?!"

To your second question, lots. Starting in 2000, and only glancing at it: Lundqvist (NYR), Keith (CHI), Perry (ANA), Bergeron (BOS), Crawford (CHI), Pavelski (SJS), Byfuglien (CHI), Burns (MIN), Getzlaf (ANA), Schneider (NYJ), Kopitar (LAK), Vlasic (SJS), Letang (PIT), Giroux (PHL), Lucic (BOS), Marchand (BOS), McDonagh (MON), Pacioretty (MON), Subban (MON), Simmonds (LAK), Benn (DAL), Karlsson (OTT), Carlson (WAS), Josi (NAS), Holtby (WAS), Lee (NYI), Tarasenko (STL), Kuznetsov (WAS), Klingberg (DAL), Kucherov (TAM), Trocheck (FLA), Gaudreau (CAL), Forsberg (WAS), Gostisbehere (PHL).

NYR, CHIx3, ANAx2, BOSx3, SJSx2, MIN, NYJ, LAKx2, PIT, PHLx2, MONx3, DALx2, OTT, WASx4, NAS, NYI, STL, TAM, FLA, CAL.

20 teams out of 30.

I look forward to the shifting of goal posts.

 

[lomekian]

I have a feeling Vanek is going to end up not moving at the deadline and spends more time in Detroit than just this season. Look at it this way:

>Aging forward who used to be elite, but can still provide some secondary scoring
>Some past baggage or whatever keeps him from getting interest or long term deals from other teams in the league
>Was bought out after under performing in what was looked at as a favorable situation/destination
>Played for the Red Wings and then returned due to mutual interest

Sound familiar? It should...

I see Vanek becoming Todd Bertuzzi 2.0.

As long as he wants to stay here and provides some offense, the Red Wings probably extend him on 1 or 2 year deals as an insurance policy to provide some offense while they lose productive guys (IE Zetterberg, Nyquist, Kronwall) and their young guys grow to fill those vacated roles and/or become core players.

Bar the difference in playing styles, I think this is the most likely outcome. But of course it depends on which DRW prospects develop and which don't, and who is available in FA

 

[lomekian]

I'll take some of the blame for the phrasing, but this feels like a really dishonest reading of what I wrote.

"And yet teams find elite players just about every year."

This was the key phrase here. Just about every year, a team has found an elite player.

"Well, most teams do."

Most teams have found one at some point in the last twenty years. We haven't.

To be fair, you can't claim a reading to be really dishonest if you have phrased it incorrectly, and the majority of viewers have read it in that same way.

Also without context the sentence is utterly meaningless regardless of how it is read. If, as you have clarified, you meant almost every year 1 team of 30 finds an elite player, and as a result most teams have done so...so what? Every year someone picks first overall. Some years there are a handful of potentially elite players. But given that over the last couple of decades (ie the period that affects the make up of the current team) every single team in the NHL has a better average draft position, it is hardly surprising that most of those teams have done better at drafting elite players. We (KH) tried to beat the system, despite rule changes implemented to make it more difficult for us to do so. It worked for a bit, but we now bear the consequences.

 

[lomekian]

Can no Wings fan ever be upset about bad drafting for the rest of time because the team did really well in the 90s? That's ridiculous. It's like calling Wings fans who want to win in the future spoiled because "By god they won a Cup in 2008! What the heck else do you want?!"

To your second question, lots. Starting in 2000, and only glancing at it: Lundqvist (NYR), Keith (CHI), Perry (ANA), Bergeron (BOS), Crawford (CHI), Pavelski (SJS), Byfuglien (CHI), Burns (MIN), Getzlaf (ANA), Schneider (NYJ), Kopitar (LAK), Vlasic (SJS), Letang (PIT), Giroux (PHL), Lucic (BOS), Marchand (BOS), McDonagh (MON), Pacioretty (MON), Subban (MON), Simmonds (LAK), Benn (DAL), Karlsson (OTT), Carlson (WAS), Josi (NAS), Holtby (WAS), Lee (NYI), Tarasenko (STL), Kuznetsov (WAS), Klingberg (DAL), Kucherov (TAM), Trocheck (FLA), Gaudreau (CAL), Forsberg (WAS), Gostisbehere (PHL).

NYR, CHIx3, ANAx2, BOSx3, SJSx2, MIN, NYJ, LAKx2, PIT, PHLx2, MONx3, DALx2, OTT, WASx4, NAS, NYI, STL, TAM, FLA, CAL.

20 teams out of 30.

I look forward to the shifting of goal posts.

Are you seriously suggesting all those guys are Elite?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Can no Wings fan ever be upset about bad drafting for the rest of time because the team did really well in the 90s? That's ridiculous. It's like calling Wings fans who want to win in the future spoiled because "By god they won a Cup in 2008! What the heck else do you want?!"

To your second question, lots. Starting in 2000, and only glancing at it: Lundqvist (NYR), Keith (CHI), Perry (ANA), Bergeron (BOS), Crawford (CHI), Pavelski (SJS), Byfuglien (CHI), Burns (MIN), Getzlaf (ANA), Schneider (NYJ), Kopitar (LAK), Vlasic (SJS), Letang (PIT), Giroux (PHL), Lucic (BOS), Marchand (BOS), McDonagh (MON), Pacioretty (MON), Subban (MON), Simmonds (LAK), Benn (DAL), Karlsson (OTT), Carlson (WAS), Josi (NAS), Holtby (WAS), Lee (NYI), Tarasenko (STL), Kuznetsov (WAS), Klingberg (DAL), Kucherov (TAM), Trocheck (FLA), Gaudreau (CAL), Forsberg (WAS), Gostisbehere (PHL).

NYR, CHIx3, ANAx2, BOSx3, SJSx2, MIN, NYJ, LAKx2, PIT, PHLx2, MONx3, DALx2, OTT, WASx4, NAS, NYI, STL, TAM, FLA, CAL.

20 teams out of 30.

I look forward to the shifting of goal posts.

Kronwall was 2000, Howard 2003, Franzen 2004, Larkin 2014, all of them fit pretty decently into that group of players you listed. If Lucic, McDonagh, Pacioretty, Vlasic, Schneider, Simmonds and Lee apply, so do our players. Maybe Mantha too, and there's still a chance AA grows into a star.

05-12 was a rough stretch for us in terms of finding high-end talent. I don't like the way you try to stretch it into being a 20 year drought though.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Kronwall was 2000, Howard 2003, Franzen 2004, Larkin 2014, all of them fit pretty decently into that group of players you listed. If Lucic, McDonagh, Pacioretty, Vlasic, Schneider, Simmonds and Lee apply, so do our players. Maybe Mantha too, and there's still a chance AA grows into a star.

05-12 was a rough stretch for us in terms of finding high-end talent. I don't like the way you try to stretch it into being a 20 year drought though.

That's more what I was saying. The "20 years since X" is used because it is technically true and therefore at a glance, it is inarguable. However, it misses the forest for the trees. The Wings had about 6 years of garbage drafting, as Pavels says. They've been much better since 2013. Guys like Larkin and Mantha through their first two/three seasons in the league are pretty dang comparable to half that list you put. And Zadina has the pedigree and talent to be at least on par with the best from that list.

 

[njx9]

To be fair, you can't claim a reading to be really dishonest if you have phrased it incorrectly, and the majority of viewers have read it in that same way.

Also without context the sentence is utterly meaningless regardless of how it is read. If, as you have clarified, you meant almost every year 1 team of 30 finds an elite player, and as a result most teams have done so...so what? Every year someone picks first overall. Some years there are a handful of potentially elite players. But given that over the last couple of decades (ie the period that affects the make up of the current team) every single team in the NHL has a better average draft position, it is hardly surprising that most of those teams have done better at drafting elite players. We (KH) tried to beat the system, despite rule changes implemented to make it more difficult for us to do so. It worked for a bit, but we now bear the consequences.

Ah, yes, the "only #1 overalls are any good and we haven't drafted high" garbage. Neatly refuted in my last post, but thanks for playing.

Are you seriously suggesting all those guys are Elite?

Are you seriously dismissing everything I posted with a worthless, throwaway comment because you disagree with someone on my list and don't want to bother explaining who or why? Thanks for posting, I guess?

Kronwall was 2000, Howard 2003, Franzen 2004, Larkin 2014, all of them fit pretty decently into that group of players you listed. If Lucic, McDonagh, Pacioretty, Vlasic, Schneider, Simmonds and Lee apply, so do our players. Maybe Mantha too, and there's still a chance AA grows into a star.

05-12 was a rough stretch for us in terms of finding high-end talent. I don't like the way you try to stretch it into being a 20 year drought though.

Lee is a 40 goal player (and Pacioretty had 39). Remind em when we last had one? McDonagh was a legitimate 1D. Remind me when we last had one? For a year or two with Kronwall? Remind me when we last had a goalie who played like Schneider did in Vancouver. Or when we had an absolute shutdown defensive defenseman like Vlasic.

But yeah, let's play some "maybe" games going forward. You can always hang your hat on a bunch of what-ifs.

That's more what I was saying. The "20 years since X" is used because it is technically true and therefore at a glance, it is inarguable. However, it misses the forest for the trees. The Wings had about 6 years of garbage drafting, as Pavels says. They've been much better since 2013. Guys like Larkin and Mantha through their first two/three seasons in the league are pretty dang comparable to half that list you put. And Zadina has the pedigree and talent to be at least on par with the best from that list.

Welp, guess it's all good then. We sucked for 20 years, but by golly, now that we're trying it's all better.

Glad those goal posts weren't too heavy.

Either way, this has nothing to do with Vanek, who's still a generic brand band-aid.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Lee is a 40 goal player (and Pacioretty had 39). Remind em when we last had one? McDonagh was a legitimate 1D. Remind me when we last had one? For a year or two with Kronwall? Remind me when we last had a goalie who played like Schneider did in Vancouver. Or when we had an absolute shutdown defensive defenseman like Vlasic.

But yeah, let's play some "maybe" games going forward. You can always hang your hat on a bunch of what-ifs.

Lee has ONE 40 goal season, next to Tavares on a team that had a ridiculous year offensively. Franzen had a 39 goal pace one year and almost exactly the same career PPG as Lee.
Kronwall > McDonagh, easily.
Pacioretty is basically a healthier version of Franzen.
Howard’s career stats are very comparable to Schneider’s. But I guess you take him because of 1-2 ~30-game seasons in Vancouver?

Larkin exceeded Lee’s career high in points his 3rd season in the league. And got close to Pacioretty’s high. But Larkin is just a ”what if”.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Ah, yes, the "only #1 overalls are any good and we haven't drafted high" garbage. Neatly refuted in my last post, but thanks for playing.



Are you seriously dismissing everything I posted with a worthless, throwaway comment because you disagree with someone on my list and don't want to bother explaining who or why? Thanks for posting, I guess?



Lee is a 40 goal player (and Pacioretty had 39). Remind em when we last had one? McDonagh was a legitimate 1D. Remind me when we last had one? For a year or two with Kronwall? Remind me when we last had a goalie who played like Schneider did in Vancouver. Or when we had an absolute shutdown defensive defenseman like Vlasic.

But yeah, let's play some "maybe" games going forward. You can always hang your hat on a bunch of what-ifs.



Welp, guess it's all good then. We sucked for 20 years, but by golly, now that we're trying it's all better.

Glad those goal posts weren't too heavy.

Either way, this has nothing to do with Vanek, who's still a generic brand band-aid.

It’s not all better, but it isn’t useful or relevant to ***** about twenty years ago. We had a six year span where we really sucked drafting. That’s why we suck now and we looked to hit the nadir these past two years. We dont suck now because we didn’t draft guys in 2004. We suck now because we got ****ing Gustav Nyquist, Tomas Tatar and **** from the 2005-2012 drafts.

Our drafting sucked and it’s why we are where we are... but it’s carping for the sake of carping to extend it back twenty years like “oh my god, they’re so bad at their jobs that they didn’t find a player for 20 years!!”

We were at the absolute top of the league in 08 and 09. By your estimation, we hadn’t drafted an elite player in about ten years by that point. I mean, 10 years is bad too, right?

Holland and co did a piss-poor job in that period between lockouts. Abysmal. By all accounts, it has been a good deal better since then.

This is just the stuff that is always done. “X hasn’t done something in Y years/games/etc.” to add emphasis or whatever. Like the people who want to run Jim Harbaugh out of town because he’s in year 4 of running Michigan and he’s probably not going to play for the national title. You take a statement that is factually true and ignore all context, all mitigating items, and such and yell it from the rooftops

 

[lomekian]

Ah, yes, the "only #1 overalls are any good and we haven't drafted high" garbage. Neatly refuted in my last post, but thanks for playing.

Are you seriously dismissing everything I posted with a worthless, throwaway comment because you disagree with someone on my list and don't want to bother explaining who or why? Thanks for posting, I guess?

Lee is a 40 goal player (and Pacioretty had 39). Remind em when we last had one? McDonagh was a legitimate 1D. Remind me when we last had one? For a year or two with Kronwall? Remind me when we last had a goalie who played like Schneider did in Vancouver. Or when we had an absolute shutdown defensive defenseman like Vlasic.

You believe that you neatly refuted what you state my argument is, but clearly my subsequent response suggests I disagree with you. As for "dismissing everything I posted with a worthless, throwaway comment", your list didn't reflect what I or many others would equate to an elite collection of players on the basis of Detroit not having drafted any of a similar calibre in the last two decades, as others have pointed out - as such I was inviting you to clarify your definition of elite or qualify your hit and miss list.

As for said examples, Anders Lee has become a great goalscorer in his late 20s, having previously put up totals that would make Mikeal Samuelsson look good. That's not to say he's not been a great pick where he was selected, but 2 good years alongside a perennial franchise center after a whole load of mediocrity prior. He's had an elite goalscoring year, and one very good one, but Franzen had 3 years of being an elite playoff scorer, and scored at similar GPG ratios, but with better assist figures, and for 6 injury hit seasons before the concussions finished him off.

Pacioretty was an excellent goalscoring forward for 6 years, even better than Franzen, so borderline elite maybe....if Mantha takes a bit of a step forward this year (less dramatic than Pacioretty did at the same age), then we'll have a similar scorer drafted in a similar position. We'll see.

McDonagh is better than anyone we drafted since Kronwall on D - took his step forward at the age Fischer had his heart attack. More of a point scorer than Fischer. A top pairing guy for a while but never elite unless we are using it in the Blashill sense of the word. Vlasic's stats and impact are incredibly similar to Jiri Fischer's. Again not elite for my money (though would look it on the current wings team).

Schneider was an elite back-up for 3 years and subsequently as a starter has been statistically very similar to Jimmy Howard but less injury prone. As a back up he was even better than Manny Legace ;-)

Others you cited were elite. Others aren't. A number of the players were still drafted in the 1st round considerably higher than the wings had picks.

I don't think anyone disputes that high round drafting from the wings in the mid-to-late 2000s was poor and has set the team back. If their mid-late drafting was as poor the rebuild would have been forced to start sooner. But your choice of time frame is suspect because in the last 20 years we drafted the elite Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, and the excellent next level down Grigorenko (I know this is a maybe, but before his crash this kid was amazing), Fischer, Franzen, Howard, and also good top six-ers like Flip, Hudler and even people like Tomas Fleischmann who stat wise had 3 excellent years at his peak....not to mention, Mantha, Larkin, and the next wave of kids who statistically at the same ages are better than a number of the examples you cited. Also, importantly, in 9 of those 20 years, the red wings had no first round pick - due to competing for cups. None of the other teams you mention traded away so many (of course Vladdi being replaced by Chelios and Fischer's heart cost us 3 first round picks). Also, as I stated before, the wings picked on average later than every other team over the last 20 years, which affects all rounds, not just the first. Also in 9 of those years they either had no 2nd round or less often no 3rd round picks.

Over the period you mention, the wings had lower picks, less high round picks AND less overall picks than every other team in the NHL. Of course they weren't going to find as good players. Doesn't excuse Jim Nill & Mcconnell's horrendous drafting though - his 1st round picks were Kindl, Smith, Mccollum and Sheahan. There's a reason some of us are happier with Tyler Wright.

 

[lomekian]

Ah, yes, the "only #1 overalls are any good and we haven't drafted high" garbage. Neatly refuted in my last post, but thanks for playing.

Also your choice of language is unnecessarily provocative, which doesn't help your arguments any more than accusing anyone who disagrees of moving the goalposts while simultaneously relocating them with gay abandon.

 

[lomekian]

As an aside, one thing that is interesting is that 1989 to 1994 the wings drafting was amazing at drafting lengthy NHL-ers that played a key part in the cup wins, and of course we all know about dats and z in 98 & 99, but 95,96,97 & much of the 80s were a disaster, with most of the NHL-ers from that period either arriving in 1983 or only flourishing at other teams. Apart from 1983 & 1989 which were home run years, and the extra parts added 1990-94, the wings drafting and retention of talent was astonishingly bad for so long. They barely drafted any really good players, and traded nearly all of those away for appalling returns.

Its extraordinary how bad this team was run between the 50s and Mr I's arrival...and even then there were a lot of cock-ups.

 

[jkutswings]

Like the people who want to run Jim Harbaugh out of town because he’s in year 4 of running Michigan and he’s probably not going to play for the national title. You take a statement that is factually true and ignore all context, all mitigating items, and such and yell it from the rooftops

Harbaugh needs to stay right where he is. I've come to enjoy that team beating nobody of consequence.

 

[Claypool]

lol

"I want my team to compete for championships but also draft elite talent year after year."

Two years removed from the playoffs and people are already getting pissy. Can't wait until the playoff drought hits year five. But hey, this is what people around here wanted. Enjoy the losing.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

So will he take #26 since Jurco is gone this time around or stay with #62?