Confirmed with Link: [VAN/NYR] Nicklas Jensen + 2017 6th for Emerson Etem

MarkMM

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This is possibly the first time I've agreed with you. 90% of the people who crap on the Vey trade are doing so in hindsight. I absolutely think it was a gamble worth taking at the time based off of Veys prior success.

I mean, here is Corey Pronman back on November 2013. Vancouver only acquired him 7 months later.

https://twitter.com/coreypronman/status/401172581580955648


Obviously Vey fell on his face, and appears to be a classic AAAA. However I think if you bat .500 with these moves its still gotta be considered a win.

Er, I don't think it's 90%, the Vey trade was received here with mixed results at best, some mad that it ended up basically being a Garrison for Vey, others because they would rather have used the 2nd for someone like McKeown.

That said, unlike some of Benning's other doozies, the Vey one at least had some understandable reasoning behind it.
 

Agent007

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Er, I don't think it's 90%, the Vey trade was received here with mixed results at best, some mad that it ended up basically being a Garrison for Vey, others because they would rather have used the 2nd for someone like McKeown.

That said, unlike some of Benning's other doozies, the Vey one at least had some understandable reasoning behind it.

IIRC most thought Benning gave up too much for a player LA had to move. They probably could have got Vey for a 3rd or 4th round pick considering the fact Vey was waiver eligable the following season.

We also don't know what other teams were in on that though.
 

denkiteki

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IIRC most thought Benning gave up too much for a player LA had to move. They probably could have got Vey for a 3rd or 4th round pick considering the fact Vey was waiver eligable the following season.

We also don't know what other teams were in on that though.

Maybe but you never know. I actually liked the trade since we were getting on paper what looked like a very good prospect for a 2nd. Vey also looked good at the start of the season. He just faded away (with a few streaks where he looked good and a lot where he looked bad).

I don't mind some of these "risks" that Benning are taking but the problem is he seems to be striking out on them everytime so its looking bad. To make things worst, his drafting has actually been going pretty well so it makes wasting draft picks even worst because he seems to be the best GM the 'nucks had in a while in terms of picking prospects (maybe we can demote him to head scout?). I'm not sure on the numbers but im guessing he has more GP's by his draft picks than MG did while MG was GM (ironic how finally we're getting MG's picks contributing...).
 

Horse McHindu

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I don't mind some of these "risks" that Benning are taking but the problem is he seems to be striking out on them everytime so its looking bad.

What strike outs?

I'm not sure what the exact percentage is, but I'm pretty sure that less than 1/7 2nd rounders actually become legit NHL players.

In Benning's case, how has he done?

-Baertschi seems to have improved this year. He's still not where he needs to be but he's definitely improved over the course of the year.
-Pedan has shown promise
-Vey has shown flashes but still has a long way to go
-We still don't know what we have with Etem.

I'm not prepared to say that Benning has hit a homer on all of these picks, but it's way too premature to say that he's "striking out on them."
 

Horse McHindu

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That said, unlike some of Benning's other doozies, the Vey one at least had some understandable reasoning behind it.

All of Benning's moves to date have had very understandable reasoning behind it.

The Etem trade, Baertschi trade, Pedan trade, etc., etc.

People seem to have this notion in their heads that most 2nd round picks become very solid hockey players and that trading 2nd round picks is sacrilegious. The truth is, very few 2nd round picks ever amount to anything. I'm not sure what the exact stat/percentage is, but my guess is that it's less than 1/7.

Baertschi, Etem, and Pedan, were all reasonably highly touted prospects with a very strong skillset. For semi-understandable and semi-valid reasons however, things didn't pan out in their original ennvironments and so Benning decided to buy relatively low on these reclamation projects.

So far - Baertschi has slowly and steadily improved, while Pedan has looked promising in his call-ups.
 

Yossarian54

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This is possibly the first time I've agreed with you. 90% of the people who crap on the Vey trade are doing so in hindsight. I absolutely think it was a gamble worth taking at the time based off of Veys prior success

Yeah I remember that thread. I'm not sure it was 90% but there was a solid amount of support.

There was one Manchester-regular Kings fan who came in to tell us that he didn't really think much of Vey and he thought he was a product of Pearson and Weal (as opposed to the other way around). I remember a lot of people got super salty at him for that. :laugh::laugh:
 

Ho Borvat

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Er, I don't think it's 90%, the Vey trade was received here with mixed results at best, some mad that it ended up basically being a Garrison for Vey, others because they would rather have used the 2nd for someone like McKeown.

That said, unlike some of Benning's other doozies, the Vey one at least had some understandable reasoning behind it.

this isnt even close

Yeah I remember that thread. I'm not sure it was 90% but there was a solid amount of support.

There was one Manchester-regular Kings fan who came in to tell us that he didn't really think much of Vey and he thought he was a product of Pearson and Weal (as opposed to the other way around). I remember a lot of people got super salty at him for that. :laugh::laugh:

90% is obviously hyperbole in this situation, but there is a sizeable group of fans who were Pro-Vey at the time of the trade, and now consider the trade a huge failure.

You can't have it both ways.

I was a fan of the Vey trade at the time, and thought it was a good gamble (still do). Obviously it didn't work out, but at the time I remember this being a relatively popular move by Benning.

The Baertschi/Vey/Pedan/Etem trades are all moves I support. However, when Benning makes moves like those he needs to find ways to acquire picks so we're not depleted on the draft floor. Something like moving Matthias for a 3rd at the deadline last year would have gave us back a 3rd we lost in the Pedan trade for example.
 

MarkMM

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All of Benning's moves to date have had very understandable reasoning behind it.

The Etem trade, Baertschi trade, Pedan trade, etc., etc.

People seem to have this notion in their heads that most 2nd round picks become very solid hockey players and that trading 2nd round picks is sacrilegious. The truth is, very few 2nd round picks ever amount to anything. I'm not sure what the exact stat/percentage is, but my guess is that it's less than 1/7.

Baertschi, Etem, and Pedan, were all reasonably highly touted prospects with a very strong skillset. For semi-understandable and semi-valid reasons however, things didn't pan out in their original ennvironments and so Benning decided to buy relatively low on these reclamation projects.

So far - Baertschi has slowly and steadily improved, while Pedan has looked promising in his call-ups.

Sbisa and Dorsett's contract are idiotic.

Don't have a problem with Baertschi, Etem and Pedan's deals, massive problem with the handling of Miller vs Lack.

But the problem isn't necessarily any one deal in isolation, it's the pattern of behaviour, overpaying slightly on trades and then sometimes significantly overpaying on contracts for players that don't bring a whole lot to the ice. $5M+ for "mentorship" of knuckle-dragging ice blackholes in Dorsett and Prust, huge pay raise and term to all-tools-no-toolbox Sbisa, paying elite salary for at-best-average Miller, these not only add up in terms of lost value and limited cap-space (among the highest if not the highest cap hit in the league for bottom-level performance), but it also signals that Benning just has poor judgement. People fairly critique the number of NTCs Gillis handed out, but look how many NTCs we have now under Benning? And we didn't even get a discount out of them, which is supposed to be the upside of giving out a NTC.

90% is obviously hyperbole in this situation, but there is a sizeable group of fans who were Pro-Vey at the time of the trade, and now consider the trade a huge failure.

You can't have it both ways.

I was a fan of the Vey trade at the time, and thought it was a good gamble (still do). Obviously it didn't work out, but at the time I remember this being a relatively popular move by Benning.

The Baertschi/Vey/Pedan/Etem trades are all moves I support. However, when Benning makes moves like those he needs to find ways to acquire picks so we're not depleted on the draft floor. Something like moving Matthias for a 3rd at the deadline last year would have gave us back a 3rd we lost in the Pedan trade for example.

That's fair, and agree on your last point especially. Hopefully we don't make the same mistake this TDL with Hamhuis and Vrbata.
 

tantalum

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Etem....easy to see why you can get excited about a guy like him. Really easy to see. But it's also easy to see why coaches can get somewhat frustrated. He is one of those guys that seems like he should be accomplishing more than he does. And a lot of it comes down to shift to shift effort. I'd say his last couple of games don't match his first couple....that is likely unfair given how bad the team was as a whole the last two games.

Still early in his Canuck days but at some point he has to produce even without prime ice. He has 13 points in his last 68 NHL games. That quite simply won't cut it.

Still, he's better for the organization than Jensen was.
 

alternate

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Really shows you how bad that gamble was.

Acquires a prospect and took like a couple months for them to figure out he actually can't skate. It's almost like they didn't scout him at all.

He was brought in to provide a rhs for the PP. No questioning that Clendenin could pass the puck, good vision and offensive instincts. Have to remember that at the time of the trade Weber was playing like, well, he's playing now. His game really pickud up after Clen was acquired.

That said, it was a bad trade. Can't skate, can't turn, can't play defense. But he was acquired to fit a specific niche that needed filling. A swing and a miss, yes, but every GM hss them.
 

F A N

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Still early in his Canuck days but at some point he has to produce even without prime ice. He has 13 points in his last 68 NHL games. That quite simply won't cut it.

True but he can doesn't have to be a scorer to be effective if he actually learns to become a better defensive player. The tools are there, with his size and speed, to not have to be a top 6 player to be effective in the NHL.
 

tantalum

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True but he can doesn't have to be a scorer to be effective if he actually learns to become a better defensive player. The tools are there, with his size and speed, to not have to be a top 6 player to be effective in the NHL.

a 15 point pace barely cuts it in the bottom 6 either. That's put him in decidedly 4th line territory potentially blocking the spot of younger players. I agree it's not all about offense but you also don't want a guy to end up being a black hole offensively and the 70 games or so he really has been.

Prime candidate for one year, two-way prove it deal in the off season.
 

groov2

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Really shows you how bad that gamble was.

Acquires a prospect and took like a couple months for them to figure out he actually can't skate. It's almost like they didn't scout him at all.

A lot of players can make up for it in other areas. When Clendenning was with the Canucks last season, I was incredibly impressed with his passing ability. The potential was there, but unfortunately, it looks like he does not have that next level in him. Sometimes gambles do not pay off. I am fine with the initial deal (I would not have made it - I like Forsling a lot).

As for Etem, I have said it before and I will say it again, I really like this deal.
 

Horse McHindu

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Sbisa and Dorsett's contract are idiotic.

No, they aren't.

1) Rebuilding/re-tooling teams have to overpay for players. It's the unfortunate reality. However - both Sbisa and Dorsett fill needs of this team. The Canucks were in dire need of a guy that was tough and could play the game reasonably well. They also needed more mobility on the back-end. Dorsett and Sbisa filled both those needs. Money isn't an issue because the Canucks will have tons of expiring contracts coming off the books over the next two seasons. Sbisa and Dorsett's contracts will also expire at the right time (i.e. when the next core should be up and running). Sbisa and Dorsett are great 'bridge gap' players from the current core to the next core.

Don't have a problem with Baertschi, Etem and Pedan's deals, massive problem with the handling of Miller vs Lack.

I have zero problem with Miller/Lack. Miller might be a shell, but he's been an elite goalie before. He's the type of guy that you want mentoring Markstrom. Miller has also played brilliantly at times this year when he hasn't been overworked. Lack proved in last year's playoffs that he's a good back-up goalie at best. The decision to proceed forward with Miller over Lack was the correct one. Markstrom should be ready to take the reigns from Miller when Miller's contract expires.

But the problem isn't necessarily any one deal in isolation, it's the pattern of behaviour, overpaying slightly on trades and then sometimes significantly overpaying on contracts for players that don't bring a whole lot to the ice.

It's the nature of hockey. Rebuilding-re-tooling teams have to overpay players to entice them to sign. Hence - any comparison to the Gillis regime or any current elite team's handling of the cap is inappropriate.

$5M+ for "mentorship" of knuckle-dragging ice blackholes in Dorsett and Prust, huge pay raise and term to all-tools-no-toolbox Sbisa, paying elite salary for at-best-average Miller, these not only add up in terms of lost value and limited cap-space (among the highest if not the highest cap hit in the league for bottom-level performance), but it also signals that Benning just has poor judgement. People fairly critique the number of NTCs Gillis handed out, but look how many NTCs we have now under Benning? And we didn't even get a discount out of them, which is supposed to be the upside of giving out a NTC.

It's a complete non-issue. Miller was a far better choice than Hiller, Lack, etc., etc., and the contracts of Sbisa, Dorsett, etc. are reasonable bridge gap contracts as the core shifts from the current core to a new core during this rebuild-retool.

During a re-tool, it is absolutely essentially to surround incoming prospects and picks with current/former elite vets and "character" vets known for their leadership. Hence - the signings of Miller, Prust, Dorsett, etc., were shrewd signings. Miller's contract will expire by the time Markstrom will fully be ready, while Prust is a much better lockerroom influence to prospects than Zack "stage 2" Kassian. Sbisa has his warts but has a strong skill set and is young enough to improve. He also gives the Canucks much needed depth and mobility on the back-end.



Hopefully we don't make the same mistake this TDL with Hamhuis and Vrbata.

Keep Hamhuis. Move Vrbata and Prust if the Nucks are out of playoff contention come TDL.
 

Tiranis

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a 15 point pace barely cuts it in the bottom 6 either. That's put him in decidedly 4th line territory potentially blocking the spot of younger players. I agree it's not all about offense but you also don't want a guy to end up being a black hole offensively and the 70 games or so he really has been.

Prime candidate for one year, two-way prove it deal in the off season.

The problem with Etem is not just that he's bad offensively, he has also been a nightmare in terms of possession results. He looks good the same way that Dorsett looks good. Skates hard and accomplishes nothing. (Being paired with Vey is certainly not helping him any but yeah...)
 

groov2

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The problem with Etem is not just that he's bad offensively, he has also been a nightmare in terms of possession results. He looks good the same way that Dorsett looks good. Skates hard and accomplishes nothing.

That may be true, but teams are not one dimensional. If every player and every line played the same way, we would be easy to play against. If our team was filled with possession all-stars, teams would play against us differently. It's specifically why you become harder to play against when you have different weapons. Hate on players like Dorsett all you want; he makes other teams more tired, which then allows possession players to actually be able to accomplish something when they're on the ice.
 

Tiranis

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That may be true, but teams are not one dimensional. If every player and every line played the same way, we would be easy to play against. If our team was filled with possession all-stars, teams would play against us differently. It's specifically why you become harder to play against when you have different weapons. Hate on players like Dorsett all you want; he makes other teams more tired, which then allows possession players to actually be able to accomplish something when they're on the ice.

:laugh: Ok... I'll make sure to give the Kings and Hawks a call to tell them they're doing it all wrong. The notion that this works is why there are just so many **** teams in this league.
 

groov2

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:laugh: Ok... I'll make sure to give the Kings and Hawks a call to tell them they're doing it all wrong. The notion that this works is why there are just so many **** teams in this league.

Are you suggesting that all the 3rd and 4th liners on the Kings and Hawks are corsi all-stars?
 

Tiranis

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Are you suggesting that all the 3rd and 4th liners on the Kings and Hawks are corsi all-stars?

You don't need to be an all-star to not be horrible to the extent that Dorsett & Etem are. At the current pace, Etem is on his way out of the league. The ice is completely tilted when he's on.

Hell, Chicago pretty much uses their 4th line exclusively to start in the defensive zone and they still manage to put up better possession numbers than Dorsett.
 

tantalum

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That may be true, but teams are not one dimensional. If every player and every line played the same way, we would be easy to play against. If our team was filled with possession all-stars, teams would play against us differently. It's specifically why you become harder to play against when you have different weapons. Hate on players like Dorsett all you want; he makes other teams more tired, which then allows possession players to actually be able to accomplish something when they're on the ice.

Rarely is the line with the puck the one getting more tired. Somehow because Dorsett throws a hit or two it makes them more tired? Nah. Don't think so. Bad possession players make their own team tired not the other team.

And Tiranis...I agree regarding Etem. Really it's why his fast skating and excitement end up not amounting to anything. The bulk of the time he's spinning in circles in his own zone. Now the jury is still out with regard to his play on the canucks of course but his history is what it is. It's like the excitement with bartkowski the first couple of games because he flew up ice with the puck a lot. Sure he does. He's also terrible defensively and gets hemmed in his own zone constantly.

Are you suggesting that all the 3rd and 4th liners on the Kings and Hawks are corsi all-stars?

Just for fun I wondered over to war-on-ice and plugged in Kings and Canuck forwards 5-on-5.

Ignoring Grenier and his one game 63+% CF, 11 of the next 12 players are Kings. The only canuck is actually Virtanen. 12 of the bottom 14 are canucks...Mersch and Lecavalier being the only Kings. Etem btw is about 35% through 4 games as a canuck. Small sample.
 
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