Confirmed with Link: [VAN/NYR] Canucks acquire 4th Round Pick in 2023 for Tyler Motte

[MS]

Exactly - saying the market establishes actual value is simplistic and silly. I suppose Loui Eriksson was worth his 6 mill. per. And as far selling or buying used cars if you think you're always getting actual market value it's time you took a longer look a under the hood.

There are any number of factors that bloat or deflate the price of player at the time of a trade. Maybe injuries force you into the trade, maybe the player asked for a trade, maybe the owner is demanding you make a trade or maybe the GM is flat out being stupid ( and we've had proof enough of this - although I guess King of Surrey would insist all Dim Jim's moves were only establishing true market value). And I would say circumstances affected the value we got back for Motte. Canucks waited too long and seemingly left opportunities, that other teams took advantage of, slip away while they attempted to negotiate with Motte agents. If a decision was made earlier and more decisively then I believe other options, given some of the other trades made for less impactful players, was possible. Any negotiations should have been precluded long before the deadline.

And talking only about points with Motte is short sighted. He anchored and was the best player on a line that shut down other teams top lines during the resurgence by the Canucks. More than this, his return coincided with a huge improvement in the PK. Before he returned we were giving up goals at a historical rate and losing game after game b/c of it. Without an improvement on the PK, which did center around Motte, there was no way we were competitive.

Indeed I would say that Motte was instrumental, given the line that formed around and improvement in the PK in turning the season around. This lead to obvious interest in Motte by other teams. But by the time the Canucks got around to moving him seems like most teams had completed their dealings.

It isn’t outlandish to say he was our 2nd most important forward this season after JT Miller.

 

[Melvin]

Does this mean the 100% accurate market value of beagle was 3mil a year?

I mean, yes? Obviously?

The problem is the decision to participate in that market. Obviously one should step away at that point.

It’s hilariously convenient that certain posters who were 100% dead wrong about the market for Motte can’t just swallow their pride and admit they were wrong and resort to this principal skinner “no, it’s the children who are wrong” BS.

Motte was worth a 4th. This wasn’t surprising to a lot of people here. Some people who thought his market value would be higher were incorrect. End of discussion.

 

[KingofSurrey]

I mean, yes? Obviously?

The problem is the decision to participate in that market. Obviously one should step away at that point.

It’s hilariously convenient that certain posters who were 100% dead wrong about the market for Motte can’t just swallow their pride and admit they were wrong and resort to this principal skinner “no, it’s the children who are wrong” BS.

Motte was worth a 4th. This wasn’t surprising to a lot of people here. Some people who thought his market value would be higher were incorrect. End of discussion.

100%.

Amazing that those that over inflated Mottes value can't just admit it. Motte is worth a 4th round pick. That is the most any NHL team was willing to offer. A 4th is Mottes value. Overpaid 4th line players are a dime a dozen and Motte is looking for bigger contract moving forward. It really was time to move on to cheaper options for our 4th.

 

[orcatown]

100%.

Amazing that those that over inflated Mottes value can't just admit it. Motte is worth a 4th round pick. That is the most any NHL team was willing to offer. A 4th is Mottes value. Overpaid 4th line players are a dime a dozen and Motte is looking for bigger contract moving forward. It really was time to move on to cheaper options for our 4th.

If that helps you sleep at night, great. But you deal with none of the arguments raised. Just state an opinion as if were fact. BTW in terms of ice time and usage Motte line was being played much more like a third line. Chaisson and other players with much less time played were basically minding the 4th line.

 

[Lindgren]

A cynic is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. (Wilde)

 

[MS]

I mean, yes? Obviously?

The problem is the decision to participate in that market. Obviously one should step away at that point.

It’s hilariously convenient that certain posters who were 100% dead wrong about the market for Motte can’t just swallow their pride and admit they were wrong and resort to this principal skinner “no, it’s the children who are wrong” BS.

Motte was worth a 4th. This wasn’t surprising to a lot of people here. Some people who thought his market value would be higher were incorrect. End of discussion.

I've pretty clearly said I mis-evaluated the market for him.

I don't believe I've mis-evaluated what the value of the player 'should' have been in a perfect market.

Like, yeah. The market is the market. The market for Rasmus Ristolainen is $5+ million/year. That doesn't mean that Ristolainen is 'worth' $5+ million/year and that percentage of the salary cap.

And the market is bizarre.

Travis Hamonic had 1 team of 30 interested in him which is run by idiots. And then those idiots apparently paid a 3rd when the market was a 4th because they didn't have a 4th.

Meanwhile Motte had multiple teams interested in him including TB who were presumably willing to pay more before they chose Nick Paul instead. And then we end up taking the 4th from NYR.

Plus internally we clearly thought Motte had higher value and you could tell the team was disappointed with that return.

So Hamonic had a higher 'market value' than Motte but when you look at the circumstances ... did he really?

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

I've pretty clearly said I mis-evaluated the market for him.

I don't believe I've mis-evaluated what the value of the player 'should' have been in a perfect market.

Like, yeah. The market is the market. The market for Rasmus Ristolainen is $5+ million/year. That doesn't mean that Ristolainen is 'worth' $5+ million/year and that percentage of the salary cap.

And the market is bizarre.

Travis Hamonic had 1 team of 30 interested in him which is run by idiots. And then those idiots apparently paid a 3rd when the market was a 4th because they didn't have a 4th.

Meanwhile Motte had multiple teams interested in him including TB who were presumably willing to pay more before they chose Nick Paul instead. And then we end up taking the 4th from NYR.

Plus internally we clearly thought Motte had higher value and you could tell the team was disappointed with that return.

So Hamonic had a higher 'market value' than Motte but when you look at the circumstances ... did he really?

When you are selling a player, it’s not always about market value, sometimes it only takes one biter. Pierre McGuire loves Hamonic and so does Capuano. That trade has both of their marks all over it.

 

[KingofSurrey]

I've pretty clearly said I mis-evaluated the market for him.

I don't believe I've mis-evaluated what the value of the player 'should' have been in a perfect market.

Like, yeah. The market is the market. The market for Rasmus Ristolainen is $5+ million/year. That doesn't mean that Ristolainen is 'worth' $5+ million/year and that percentage of the salary cap.

And the market is bizarre.

Travis Hamonic had 1 team of 30 interested in him which is run by idiots. And then those idiots apparently paid a 3rd when the market was a 4th because they didn't have a 4th.

Meanwhile Motte had multiple teams interested in him including TB who were presumably willing to pay more before they chose Nick Paul instead. And then we end up taking the 4th from NYR.

Plus internally we clearly thought Motte had higher value and you could tell the team was disappointed with that return.

So Hamonic had a higher 'market value' than Motte but when you look at the circumstances ... did he really?

5-6 D man with over 200 pts in the show
4th line forward with 60 pts in the show.

 

[MS]

5-6 D man with over 200 pts in the show
4th line forward with 60 pts in the show.

Uh, yes.

That's kind of the point.

Bad player with good hockey card stats gets badly overpaid.

Good player with bad hockey card stats gets undervalued.

Imperfect market.

You realize there are two ends to the rink, right?

 

[Snatcher Demko]

It's a real shame we only got a 4th for Motte. I would have been fine with keeping him but it's nice that management sticks to their guns on assets they don't see as part of the future.

He's been a solid 3rd liner for us and I expected at least a 3rd back for him. Honestly I think he would have been worth a late 2nd or 3rd and a B prospect.

It'll be real interesting to see how the Lamikko line does now, and also if the team takes a step back at all. They shouldn't but mental toughness seems to be an issue with this group.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

a fourth is fine, a third would have been maybe a little more fair, a second would be the best case scenario of finding one drunk guy like we did with dorion

but consider that one time nonis traded an expiring matt cooke at the deadline to a contending capitals team in ovechkin's absolute best season for a 27 year old matt pettinger, who we waived at the beginning of the next season

with that in mind, this fourth should make everyone feel better right?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

and i love motte, a top five favourite canuck of mine of the last bunch of years

but realistically, he doesn't really move the needle that much does he? i'm not an advanced stats guy but i feel like with his motor and effort he looks better than what he actually accomplishes. feel the same way about garland. nice to have, fun to cheer for, but overrated by fans and, mostly likely, by other teams so i'd be happy to extract that value.

 

[MarkMM]

It's plausible we could have gotten more if we were willing to move him sooner (before other teams had made their moves) but we waited to see how this team was trending and Motte/Lammikko/Highmore were a big part of that. I think the writing was on the wall that this isn't a genuine playoff threat (and Rutherford's own comments point to him thinking the same thing) but management probably wanted to give a sign of faith for morale if no other reasons and that might have cost us the drop from a 3rd to a 4th. Not the end of the world, stings a little but outweighed by Hamonic's move in the big picture for the better.

 

[hookshott]

100%.

Amazing that those that over inflated Mottes value can't just admit it. Motte is worth a 4th round pick. That is the most any NHL team was willing to offer. A 4th is Mottes value. Overpaid 4th line players are a dime a dozen and Motte is looking for bigger contract moving forward. It really was time to move on to cheaper options for our 4th.

You don't create a good team by overpaying 4th liners.....we already tried that and proved it does not work!

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

If you've been watching the Canucks play calling Motte a 4th liner seems disingenuous. He had a pretty important role on the team.

Motte was just another casualty of the cap. If we weren't loaded down with awful contracts I'd have happily overpaid a little for Motte.

 

[KingofSurrey]

Uh, yes.

That's kind of the point.

Bad player with good hockey card stats gets badly overpaid.

Good player with bad hockey card stats gets undervalued.

Imperfect market.

You realize there are two ends to the rink, right?

A 5-6 D man is clearly worth more than a 4th line forward.

You do realize that Motte is worth less than Hamonic , right ?

Or are you the guy that rents a table at the flea market and makes no sales because nobody will buy your overpriced old stuff..... You package up all your stuff at the end of the flea market and bring it all back home... all the while saying that the 2500 buyers at the market today are dumb....

 

[MS]

A 5-6 D man is clearly worth more than a 4th line forward.

You do realize that a hockey game has 3 periods ... right ?

Motte plays 15+ minutes/game and has scored at a 15+ goal clip since the start of the bubble. He's a 3rd line forward.

Ristolainen is a $2 million player who gets paid $5-6 million because he is grossly overvalued by an inefficient market.

 

[KingofSurrey]

Motte plays 15+ minutes/game and has scored at a 15+ goal clip since the start of the bubble. He's a 3rd line forward.

Ristolainen is a $2 million player who gets paid $5-6 million because he is grossly overvalued by an inefficient market.

Are you the guy that rents a table at the flea market and makes no sales because nobody will buy your overpriced old stuff..... You package up all your stuff at the end of the flea market and bring it all back home... all the while saying that everyone of the 2500 buyers at the market today are dumb....

 

[MS]

Are you the guy that rents a table at the flea market and makes no sales because nobody will buy your overpriced old stuff..... You package up all your stuff at the end of the flea market and bring it all back home... all the while saying that everyone of the 2500 buyers at the market today are dumb....

Do you think Rasmus Ristolainen's contract represents fair value for his contributions to his team?

Do you think that every contract signed by every player represents perfect value for their contributions to their team?

Do you think that every trade is perfectly fair accurate value relative to the on-ice contributions of that player?

 

[KingofSurrey]

Do you think Rasmus Ristolainen's contract represents fair value for his contributions to his team?

Flyers overpaid for Ristolainen

Nobody wanted to overpay for Motte. Motte is worth a 4th right now as a rental that wants big money next summer.

 

[Peen]

Worst debate I've seen in a while

 

[KingofSurrey]

Worst debate I've seen in a while

Agreed. Just happy we didn't have a Dim GM that sold out our future at the TDL for a failed playoff drive... or let expiring assets sit on the shelf.

 

[VanJack]

Agreed. Just happy we didn't have a Dim GM that sold out our future at the TDL for a failed playoff drive... or let expiring assets sit on the shelf.

The thing is, Motte wasn't a 'shelf-sitter' on this Canucks team. He was the driver on one of the Canucks most successful lines with Lammikko and Highmore, that Boudreau trusted in all situations. And he was one of the Canucks only decent PK'ers.

I realize he probably would have walked away once the season was over.....but a fourth round draft pick in 2023 produces a player who has about a five percent chance of ever playing a game for you. And if by some miracle you pick a kid at that point who actually works out, it'll still be 2027 or 2028 before he ever makes an appearance in the lineup.

They basically gave Motte away for nothing imo. And apologists who try to compare the Motte trade to all the guys like Tofoli, Stecher, Markstrom and Tanev who walked away for nothing, are being pretty disingenuous imo. Sometimes getting 'nothing' for a key guy like Motte is actually better than getting 'something' of no consequence.

 

[KingofSurrey]

The thing is, Motte wasn't a 'shelf-sitter' on this Canucks team. He was the driver on one of the Canucks most successful lines with Lammikko and Highmore, that Boudreau trusted in all situations. And he was one of the Canucks only decent PK'ers.

I realize he probably would have walked away once the season was over.....but a fourth round draft pick in 2023 produces a player who has about a five percent chance of ever playing a game for you. And if by some miracle you pick a kid at that point who actually works out, it'll still be 2027 or 2028 before he ever makes an appearance in the lineup.

They basically gave Motte away for nothing imo. And apologists who try to compare the Motte trade to all the guys like Tofoli, Stecher, Markstrom and Tanev who walked away for nothing, are being pretty disingenuous imo. Sometimes getting 'nothing' for a key guy like Motte is actually better than getting 'something' of no consequence.

Motte told the canucks he was looking for big bucks this summer and not signing here...

Canucks got a 4th for him. Small chance a 4th makes the big club... but any chance is better than none.

Bieksa - 5h round
Cooke - 6th round
Walker - 5th
Aucoin - 5th
Lidster - 7th

• Jannik Hansen (9th round, 2004)
• Brent Sopel (6th round, 1995)
• Gino Odjick (5th round, 1990)
• Dixon Ward (7th round, 1988)
• Garry Valk (6th round, 1987)
• Robert Kron (5th round, 1985)
• Dave Lowry (6th round, 1983)
• Harold Snepsts (4th round, 1974)

 

[Tomatoes11]

The motte line being one of our best lines is probably more indicative of the rest of our team rather than that specific line. What it basically suggests is that we really should have tanked from the start and have no business going for a playoff spot.

We should get a better idea of his value soon once he adjusts to the Rangers. If he looks bad then we got away with a 4th. If he makes Kreider , panarin , zibanjed etc look as lazy as he made Miller, Boeser , and Horvat look then we got ripped off.