Confirmed with Link: [VAN/NJD] Canucks trade G Cory Schneider to Devils for 9th Overall Pick - Part II

[ddawg1950]

Our GM gets ZERO respect from anyone in the hockey world. He is trashed by almost every media outlet, CBC and TSN hate him. During the playoffs all I heard was how this guy came in and inherited all the strengths of our current team, hasn't brought in a forward that's scored a playoff goal in two years, makes horrible trades, can only seem to sign home province defensemen or give depth guys FMV, has allowed a culture of whining and diving and complaining and feuding with the league, the refs, the media, and his own players including Hodgson and Luongo.

He has the arrogance of a man that has built something incredible but if you take away the pieces he already had when he walked in the door and only had to re-sign, the team is lottery worthy. He couldn't put a great core over the top, has made it out of round two one time in five years and is now on a huge decline with horrible depth, holes all over the roster, a goalie that doesn't want to be here.

I'd say he's pretty dim. Incredible overrated, and taking us nowhere.

And I'd say your post is the internet equivalent of poopng your pants.

You're juat embarrassing yourself now.

 

[Verviticus]

please please please stop quoting these people

 

[ddawg1950]

please please please stop quoting these people

I really understand what you mean...and I know they are being incredibly obtuse, but I also just can't help but shine a light on some of the stupidity.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Our GM gets ZERO respect from anyone in the hockey world. He is trashed by almost every media outlet, CBC and TSN hate him. During the playoffs all I heard was how this guy came in and inherited all the strengths of our current team, hasn't brought in a forward that's scored a playoff goal in two years, makes horrible trades, can only seem to sign home province defensemen or give depth guys FMV, has allowed a culture of whining and diving and complaining and feuding with the league, the refs, the media, and his own players including Hodgson and Luongo.

He has the arrogance of a man that has built something incredible but if you take away the pieces he already had when he walked in the door and only had to re-sign, the team is lottery worthy. He couldn't put a great core over the top, has made it out of round two one time in five years and is now on a huge decline with horrible depth, holes all over the roster, a goalie that doesn't want to be here.

I'd say he's pretty dim. Incredible overrated, and taking us nowhere.

To be clear, I did not mean to state that Gillis is dim overall. He's taken a hit with this, not question. But select acts don't colour the whole. Or at least, they should not.

On the whole, Gillis is still a very good manager IMO. He was "excellent", in my book.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

A stupid act doesn't make someone stupid overall. He's not stupid, but this was very poorly executed. Make no mistake, this was suspect GMing. It has nothing to do with emotion. I think you may be being a bit childish in your perception of my stance. He's gone against what many better Canucks posters have deemed the correct course of action here. Fans outside of the team? Well, their reaction is readily apparent. This was anything but "method". This was switching gears when left with no other option.

A "shrewd" maneuver? Don't make me laugh. I think your bias may be showing here.

So what should Gillis have done, then? Should he have traded Luongo for Schenn straight up? According to you he wasn't willing to waive to TO anyways. Perhaps he should have traded him for DiPietro straight up and bought him out instead. Is that what you think an intelligent GM would have done?

Gillis' hands were tied here. The only possible way he might have gotten out of it would be to have traded Luongo to Florida for a pittance before the last CBA expired, and we would have called Gillis stupid for that as well for not waiting to see if the market picks up later in the season.

GMs are paid to project. No excuse.

The last paragraph has what to do with business? Money in/money out has to be weighed against strength of brand, of team, and belief in management. Those things too have a monetary value. I can only assume that you are not a part of a business, or the management of. Your take about perceptions is telling here. I'd advise to give Tom Mayanek a listen from time to time. Not an authority, but he does provide perspective on the more business related aspects of the franchise. Could be beneficial.

Personally I don't think management would have okayed a buy out even if Gillis wanted to do it. I have a hard time believing that the difference between Luongo and Schneider is worth Horvat + 10s of millions of dollars to the franchise.

You called this thing about Schneider, against the common sense of many better posters (IMO). You were proven right. However, there's a mountain of stuff where you have been proven wrong (Ryder). Actually, the fact that Gillis traded a prime asset for a prospect instead of an aged vet immediately means that he does not share your take on prospects vs veterans... I wouldn't look to this Schneider incident as anything indicative of your skills regarding prognostication. You can though...

A "mountain" of stuff? Ryder failed to sign with any one of Boston, Montreal, or Dallas, just like I said he would. I never said he would sign here, simply that we had as good a chance as any team interested in him in UFA. (so the odds were still only about 1/30) We failed to sign a single top-6 forward in UFA, so that we didn't sign Ryder doesn't mean anything. regarding how likely he was to sign here compared to other players on the market.

Honestly, if that's the best way you have to discredit it me as an inferior poster...

And I'm well aware Gillis does not share my view of veterans vs prospects. I disagree with him. I don't expect him to sign Jagr, or trade for Vanek. But as an armchair GM, it is my right, same as anyone else, to state my views as to what would be best for the team, just like you felt it would be better if Luongo had gone for nothing to less than nothing instead of trading Schneider.

 

[Bleach Clean]

So what should Gillis have done, then? Should he have traded Luongo for Schenn straight up? According to you he wasn't willing to waive to TO anyways. Perhaps he should have traded him for DiPietro straight up and bought him out instead. Is that what you think an intelligent GM would have done?

Gillis' hands were tied here. The only possible way he might have gotten out of it would be to have traded Luongo to Florida for a pittance before the last CBA expired, and we would have called Gillis stupid for that as well for not waiting to see if the market picks up later in the season.

For me to correctly ascertain what Gillis should have done, I would have to be aware of every offer on the table for Luongo, and the exact point he was officially put on the market for other GMs to bid on. Since I don't know that, I cannot say. No one can say. But the point remains: He tied his own hands. He waited until he had no choice. Until he placed himself within a dilemma and a finite timeline...

Personally I don't think management would have okayed a buy out even if Gillis wanted to do it. I have a hard time believing that the difference between Luongo and Schneider is worth Horvat + 10s of millions of dollars to the franchise.

You're guessing. Before Luongo's contract became the poison pill that it has seemingly become under the new CBA, Gillis was perfectly vocal about dealing his veteran asset, the one looking to garner lesser value in trade than Schneider, even though he himself could do the Luongo + pick vs. Schneider + lesser assets math. He knew this was the likely outcome too, yet still had Luongo on the market for 1.5 years. So to him, that difference in asset value between the two didn't matter, he was intending to keep the better goalie.

A "mountain" of stuff? Ryder failed to sign with any one of Boston, Montreal, or Dallas, just like I said he would. I never said he would sign here, simply that we had as good a chance as any team interested in him in UFA. (so the odds were still only about 1/30) We failed to sign a single top-6 forward in UFA, so that we didn't sign Ryder doesn't mean anything. regarding how likely he was to sign here compared to other players on the market.

Honestly, if that's the best way you have to discredit it me as an inferior poster...

And I'm well aware Gillis does not share my view of veterans vs prospects. I disagree with him. I don't expect him to sign Jagr, or trade for Vanek. But as an armchair GM, it is my right, same as anyone else, to state my views as to what would be best for the team, just like you felt it would be better if Luongo had gone for nothing to less than nothing instead of trading Schneider.

Now Ryder signing elsewhere doesn't mean anything. Ummm ok. So why were you pushing so hard for him then to come here? Did they even call him?

Anyways, if I wanted to discredit you as a poster. There's a lot more. One need only take a look at your "work" in the T&R boards for proof. And I think that's part of the problem here. I don't mean to slight you, but I would liken your posts to being more armchair related than grounded in reality. The trading, roster movement, going all in, devaluing youth are all clearly things that get you going. You clearly like action in management. That's fine. I think Holmgren would make for an ideal GM for what you want to do. But not everyone cares to entertain that mindset. So it will create a natural "what did he just propose?" viewpoint with some of your more risk filled proposals.

As an armchair GM, one would think that some level of Gillis's own history and demeanor would factor into your analysis. If it doesn't, then I'm not sure why people should take your posts seriously? If it's just about what you want to do, then... ummm... ok? But if it's something you think Gillis _should_ do, then you will get a rebuttal.

This is why Gillis's move is being scrutinized the way that it is. For a moment, he moved into the NHL13 crowd of doing things, where the method ran contradictory to his plan, and he behaved in a way not characteristic of himself. That's why the hockey world is panning this move. That's why many posters here are as well. I think that I was wrong in projecting Gillis would do, based on his history and inferred mindset. You were right based on your own viewpoint on how things should unfold. Does that make you a better prognosticator on what _Gillis_ will do in the future. Nope.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

For me to correctly ascertain what Gillis should have done, I would have to be aware of every offer on the table for Luongo, and the exact point he was officially put on the market for other GMs to bid on. Since I don't know that, I cannot say. No one can say. But the point remains: He tied his own hands. He waited until he had no choice. Until he placed himself within a dilemma and a finite timeline...

Well, if you don't know what options were available to him, then how can you fault him for waiting?

If I were in his shoes I think I would have done the exact same thing. Shop Luongo for as long as possible to see if there were anyone willing to take him, and if that doesn't work go to Plan B, which is trading Schneider. Unless we know of a specific case of him refusing a trade that helped us and that Luongo would have approved, there's no way to call him out.

You're guessing. Before Luongo's contract became the poison pill that it has seemingly become under the new CBA, Gillis was perfectly vocal about dealing his veteran asset, the one looking to garner lesser value in trade than Schneider, even though he himself could do the Luongo + pick vs. Schneider + lesser assets math. He knew this was the likely outcome too, yet still had Luongo on the market for 1.5 years. So to him, that difference in asset value between the two didn't matter, he was intending to keep the better goalie.

I think the reason he waited was because no one was offering anything that had more than minimal to negative value. He waited to the last possible minute where someone might change their mind before deciding to trade Schneider. I see nothing wrong with him waiting to try and maximize value, or at least ascertain for certain there is no other beneficial option other than trading Schneider.

Now Ryder signing elsewhere doesn't mean anything. Ummm ok. So why were you pushing so hard for him then to come here? Did they even call him?

Ryder signing with the Devils doesn't mean anything because he didn't sign with one of his prior teams. You claimed that because he somehow chose the previous three teams he has played for over Vancouver, he wouldn't sign here. Yet he chose those teams over New Jersey as well, and that didn't stop him from signing there. I wanted us to sign Ryder, but I didn't say it was likely to happen. We would have had to trade Booth for a pick to clear cap space first, and given Gillis' emphasis on youth I don't see him signing him.

But that has nothing to do if Ryder would have signed here if Gillis had shown interest, or even offered him the exact same that Booth is making now(750k more than what he signed with the Devils for)

Anyways, if I wanted to discredit you as a poster. There's a lot more. One need only take a look at your "work" in the T&R boards for proof. And I think that's part of the problem here. I don't mean to slight you, but I would liken your posts to being more armchair related than grounded in reality. The trading, roster movement, going all in, devaluing youth are all clearly things that get you going. You clearly like action in management. That's fine. I think Holmgren would make for an ideal GM for what you want to do. But not everyone cares to entertain that mindset. So it will create a natural "what did he just propose?" viewpoint with some of your more risk filled proposals.

As an armchair GM, one would think that some level of Gillis's own history and demeanor would factor into your analysis. If it doesn't, then I'm not sure why people should take your posts seriously? If it's just about what you want to do, then... ummm... ok? But if it's something you think Gillis _should_ do, then you will get a rebuttal.

This is why Gillis's move is being scrutinized the way that it is. For a moment, he moved into the NHL13 crowd of doing things, where the method ran contradictory to his plan, and he behaved in a way not characteristic of himself. That's why the hockey world is panning this move. That's why many posters here are as well. I think that I was wrong in projecting Gillis would do, based on his history and inferred mindset. You were right based on your own viewpoint on how things should unfold. Does that make you a better prognosticator on what _Gillis_ will do in the future. Nope.

I think I make a clear distinction between what I would like Gillis to do and what I think Gillis would do. If that distinction has not been clear enough in the past then I will try to do so in the future.

 

[I in the Eye]

Well, if you don't know what options were available to him, then how can you fault him for waiting?

If I were in his shoes I think I would have done the exact same thing. Shop Luongo for as long as possible to see if there were anyone willing to take him, and if that doesn't work go to Plan B, which is trading Schneider. Unless we know of a specific case of him refusing a trade that helped us and that Luongo would have approved, there's no way to call him out.




I think the reason he waited was because no one was offering anything that had more than minimal to negative value. He waited to the last possible minute where someone might change their mind before deciding to trade Schneider. I see nothing wrong with him waiting to try and maximize value, or at least ascertain for certain there is no other beneficial option other than trading Schneider.

I think it's safe to assume that Gillis controlled the timeline... By his own admission, "he is the problem" [why Luongo hasn't been traded]... Gillis wanted more... Gillis felt that he should get more for Luongo... Gillis felt that Luongo on the team was better than the return he was getting offered, so better to keep Luongo on the team... I think Gillis was the reason why Luongo wasn't traded last offseason all the way to the trade deadline (at the deadline, Gillis refused to have salary retained)...

I don't blame Gillis for waiting (I think Luongo should have returned something good to great, as well - I'll assume Gillis was just offered "ok", good enough to trade Luongo at any time, but not good enough to pull the trigger on a deal... underwhelming, ok offers)... But, the environment conspired against Gillis to get something good to great (and perhaps even ok) at the end (mainly the CBA "Luongo rule")... There were warning signs that the new CBA would have a rule to punish Luongo-type contracts, but these were ignored... I reasoned no way the league would do it, at least, not grandfather in existing contracts... Maybe Gillis thought the same - it wouldn't be such a harsh punishment? Gillis was right that the market opened for Luongo in the offseason (Philly, NYI, etc.), but was wrong that this opened market would result in a good to great return (maybe even the ok offers disappeared)... IMHO, other GM's perhaps felt that Gillis was squeezed to buyout Luongo and they could get him at a much better (shorter term) contract without giving up anything... I think the CBA made Luongo less valuable than before... I think other GM's legitimately wanted some compensation for the Luongo contract (salary retained, etc.)... Low return + salary retained? $24m buyout + no return? Difficult to swallow...

Gillis waited, and it didn't play out as he planned... That's his fault, IMHO... The waiting was in his control... From my armchair, I would have lost the game and bought out Luongo... From my armchair, there was no way Gillis could now go with Schneider after everything said and done since last offseason... In the end, Gillis would have the CBA to blame, even though it was a misjudge of how things would play out (by waiting, the possibility was there all along for things to change - not only positively, but negatively as well)... The CBA was the way out for Gillis to save some face losing Luongo for nothing... I wanted Schneider on this team, more than losing Luongo for nothing... I think Gillis made a mistake (as did I) that made this worst case end result a real possibility, and likely outcome...

But, with that said, whereas I would have lost the game, Gillis turned the mistake into a challenge to overcome, and an opportunity to shine... I thought too much water under the bridge to keep Luongo over Schneider now... Having Horvat in the organization, with Luongo providing excellent to great to good goaltending (assuming he comes back) is some nice tasting lemonade... But, still, having Schneider is a cool drink as well... Is it better to have Schneider, or Luongo + Horvat? Just having this a legit question, means to me, that Gillis did good with what he was facing there at the end...

... and the more I find out about Bo Horvat, the more I'm glad that the mistake happened (or the more I don't consider it necessarily a mistake, but rather, an "unexpected change of direction" at the end)... Blessing in disguise? A day where you lose a goaltender like Schneider, is never a good day... Yet, at the same time, a day where you get Bo Horvat and Luongo is always a good day... I think it will take years to determine if this was ultimately good or bad...

All that can be reasonably said right now, IMO, is that it was a bold move, and a Gillis stamp on this team...

 

[gobi]

@I in the Eye, nice post. Agree fully with what you said. GMMG made lemonade out of lemons in this situation.

 

[Jyrki]

@I in the Eye, nice post. Agree fully with what you said. GMMG made lemonade out of lemons in this situation.

...after letting them sit in the counter past their shelf life

 

[Diamonddog01]

Gillis made lemonade out of lemons? You guys are reaching.

Gillis angrily threw lemons at passing cars, in a wifebeater, while sweating profusely, after not getting any lemonade sales for his $10 dollar asking price.

 

[Raistlin]

Gillis made lemonade out of lemons? You guys are reaching.

Gillis angrily threw lemons at passing cars, in a wifebeater, while sweating profusely, after not getting any lemonade sales for his $10 dollar asking price.

no man, he acknowledged that waiting and biding his time on Lu was a mistake. but it was a mistake that was made essentially before 2012-13, I agree that once the Bozak deal fizzed, he made up for it by acquiring Hovart and damage controlling Lu.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

no man, he acknowledged that waiting and biding his time on Lu was a mistake. but it was a mistake that was made essentially before 2012-13, I agree that once the Bozak deal fizzed, he made up for it by acquiring Hovart and damage controlling Lu.

So he picked some lemons, waited for them to go bad, then made lemonade???

 

[Raistlin]

So he picked some lemons, waited for them to go bad, then made lemonade???

yeah. that sounds about right.. he didn't chuck it into the drain (drafting hush/a reach, or something Feaster would do).

Why do we fall, Bruce?

 

[Diamonddog01]

While I admire the fact that some of Gillis' more ardent supporters are trying hard to give this the ol' Gillis snake-oil pitch, you guys just don't have the salesmanship and PR skills of GMMG.

 

[rune74]

While I admire the fact that some of Gillis' more ardent supporters are trying hard to give this the ol' Gillis snake-oil pitch, you guys just don't have the salesmanship and PR skills of GMMG.

Man, he should have traded schneider for brule like nonis tried then it would make all of you happy

 

[ZKass The Bass]

Gillis is an excellent GM, still. On-ice results as well as some poor decisions has definitely hindered some people's opinion on him. The way the Luongo situation was handled is and was horrid - had he been traded at the draft(12') this thread would never exist.

We should be very fortunate Jay Feaster is not GM. At least he's got that going for him. Not being Jay Feaster.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Man, he should have traded schneider for brule like nonis tried then it would make all of you happy

Well he apparently may sign Brule now, and we don't have anything immediate to show for Schneider, so perhaps him and Nonis aren't too different after all.

Both cautious, fall prey to paralysis through analysis, and make terrible trades and are very bad at drafting.

Both good at re-signing players to reasonable deals.

Pretty much the same GM, except one has better social skills and has mastered the art of snake-oil sales and deluding the kiddies.

 

[Smokey McCanucks]

Here's something to think about, Luongo's cap hit is five and a third for the next nine seasons. Schneider only has two seasons left on his deal. Now, if Schneider played the way everyone expected him to, and did well in the playoffs, he'd be up for a new contract, something in line with what Rask and Rinne are making. If he didn't play that well, you can imagine how that'd go in a city like Vancouver. I think Gillis certainly made the right move here. The difference between Luongo and Schneider, their ages, their contract situations, how they play goal, can you people here honestly claim that Schneider is a top-ten pick's worth of better goaltending than Luongo? Seriously? C'mon.

 

[Verviticus]

woah! that IS something to think about. a thing ive never thought about before. Dang

 

[Dado]

... can you people here honestly claim that Schneider is a top-ten pick's worth of better goaltending than Luongo? Seriously? C'mon.

That's too fuzzy a question. Since our last top-10 turned into Kassian, let's rephrase as:

"...can you people here honestly claim that Schneider is a Kassian worth of better goaltender than Luongo?"

 

[Smokey McCanucks]

Okay, now here's another thing. Horvat is set to play on a line with two other first-round picks, Domi (Phoenix) and McCarron (Montreal), on the first line of a team coached by Dale Hunter. With London set to host the Memorial Cup next season, it will be Horvat's THIRD STRAIGHT Memorial Cup tournament. You think maybe this kid is gonna be ready for the pros? Also he was the MVP of the OHL playoffs and scored the game-winner in the third period of Game Seven against Barrie, after previously scoring the series-winner in the first round.

But for reals, keep saying how bad a trade it was people. The only way it is a bad trade is if Luongo refuses to report.

 

[rune74]

Well he apparently may sign Brule now, and we don't have anything immediate to show for Schneider, so perhaps him and Nonis aren't too different after all.

Both cautious, fall prey to paralysis through analysis, and make terrible trades and are very bad at drafting.

Both good at re-signing players to reasonable deals.

Pretty much the same GM, except one has better social skills and has mastered the art of snake-oil sales and deluding the kiddies.

That is so out to lunch...signing brule for nothing is not the same as signing him. Gillis's drafting is light years beyond Nonis. My god, this board has gone to the sky is falling

 

[604]

woah! that IS something to think about. a thing ive never thought about before. Dang

Sarcastic?

It has been discussed a lot that Schneider is a UFA in two years and either will require a big raise or will move if he performs as expected.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Well he apparently may sign Brule now, and we don't have anything immediate to show for Schneider, so perhaps him and Nonis aren't too different after all.

Both cautious, fall prey to paralysis through analysis, and make terrible trades and are very bad at drafting.

Both good at re-signing players to reasonable deals.

Pretty much the same GM, except one has better social skills and has mastered the art of snake-oil sales and deluding the kiddies.

I criticize Gillis for the way he handled the goalie situation here.
But he is in no way similar to Nonis. Love them or hate them, both the Hodgson and Schneider trades were bold moves. We have two young players now in the fold as a result. Nonis traded second round picks for over the hill players who were basically useless. Nonis was struck by paralysis while Gillis is deliberate but willing to act when he's assessed the risks. You can disagree with his assessment but he's nothing like Nonis on that.

In terms of drafting, again there is no real comparison. Nonis took Patrick white with one of his first overall picks. Gillis has taken Hodgson, Schroeder, Jensen, Horvat and Shinkaruk. At the time any objective observer would say those were very good picks. We'll see how they work out. Patrick White was just a brutal pick from the moment it was made. Never even came close to playing an NHL game.

In terms of results, Nonis missed the playoffs in two out of his three years. Gillis' record speaks for itself.