Confirmed with Link: [VAN/NJD] Canucks trade G Cory Schneider to Devils for 9th Overall Pick - Part II

[Vankiller Whale]

Business people don't think like this. The guy at the top is the leader, and he sets the culture and the norms of the organization he manages. If he is seen to be suspect, in any form, the business he runs will be negatively affected in kind.

You should care. These things are interrelated. How a GM is viewed impacts the decisions of players and other GMs that interact with him (Tom Mayanek remarks in kind with regards to Gillis, citing an uneasy path due to being a former agent). You say that results on the ice matter most, and they do, but will this impede his ability to produce the best results on ice in the future? Is he assured to maximize his results if he comes off as dim individual? No, I don't think so.

I don't think anyone would accuse Gillis of being dim. Shrewd, or perhaps even inconsiderate, sure. But just because you're angry he traded Schneider doesn't make him stupid.

The NHL is constantly changing, and just because he intended to do one thing under a previous CBA doesn't mean that after a new CBA comes in and having been ousted in a first round sweep that things can't change. Everyone, both players or other GMs are also aware of this.

And it's funny you mention the business perspective. From a business perspective, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to trade Schneider than to buy out Luongo. I've told you this before, but you didn't want to believe me. It happened, and it's time to move on now, for better or worse.

 

[701]

Wisp I'm thinking you meant "empathize"?

"Emphasize" doesn't make sense.

 

[Wisp]

That's what I meant, yes.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I don't think anyone would accuse Gillis of being dim. Shrewd, or perhaps even inconsiderate, sure. But just because you're angry he traded Schneider doesn't make him stupid.

A stupid act doesn't make someone stupid overall. He's not stupid, but this was very poorly executed. Make no mistake, this was suspect GMing. It has nothing to do with emotion. I think you may be being a bit childish in your perception of my stance. He's gone against what many better Canucks posters have deemed the correct course of action here. Fans outside of the team? Well, their reaction is readily apparent. This was anything but "method". This was switching gears when left with no other option.

A "shrewd" maneuver? Don't make me laugh. I think your bias may be showing here.

The NHL is constantly changing, and just because he intended to do one thing under a previous CBA doesn't mean that after a new CBA comes in and having been ousted in a first round sweep that things can't change. Everyone, both players or other GMs are also aware of this.

And it's funny you mention the business perspective. From a business perspective, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to trade Schneider than to buy out Luongo. I've told you this before, but you didn't want to believe me. It happened, and it's time to move on now, for better or worse.

GMs are paid to project. No excuse.

The last paragraph has what to do with business? Money in/money out has to be weighed against strength of brand, of team, and belief in management. Those things too have a monetary value. I can only assume that you are not a part of a business, or the management of. Your take about perceptions is telling here. I'd advise to give Tom Mayanek a listen from time to time. Not an authority, but he does provide perspective on the more business related aspects of the franchise. Could be beneficial.

You called this thing about Schneider, against the common sense of many better posters (IMO). You were proven right. However, there's a mountain of stuff where you have been proven wrong (Ryder). Actually, the fact that Gillis traded a prime asset for a prospect instead of an aged vet immediately means that he does not share your take on prospects vs veterans... I wouldn't look to this Schneider incident as anything indicative of your skills regarding prognostication. You can though...

 

[Wisp]

A stupid act doesn't make someone stupid overall. He's not stupid, but this was very poorly executed. Make no mistake, this was suspect GMing. It has nothing to do with emotion. I think you may be being a bit childish in your perception of my stance. He's gone against what many better Canucks posters have deemed the correct course of action here. Fans outside of the team? Well, their reaction is readily apparent. This was anything but "method". This was switching gears when left with no other option.

A "shrewd" maneuver? Don't make me laugh. I think your bias may be showing here.

Eh, I don't disagree with your sentiment, Bleach, but given Gillis' objectives with the goaltending trade in general - I think what he pulled at the end was shrewd. Gillis wanted a blue chip centerman prospect with skill and size from the beginning, and in the end, he got him. He has been nothing but consistent in accomplishing his ends.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Eh, I don't disagree with your sentiment, Bleach, but given Gillis' objectives with the goaltending trade in general - I think what he pulled at the end was shrewd. Gillis wanted a blue chip centerman prospect with skill and size from the beginning, and in the end, he got him. He has been nothing but consistent in accomplishing his ends.

To be clear, what he pulled off in the end has little to do with how he played out the situation. I like what he pulled too. I've been on here saying that it is the best return a goalie has garnered. That said, I still see this as a clunky and mismanaged situation. There is a separation there.

The return to me, is more about the strength of the player Schneider is, rather than Gillis's management to ensure the best return for a prime asset. It was said at the time of the draft (Friedmann) that the Canucks had a last minute meeting to switch gears after they learned about the buyout from another team (PHI) would leave the Luongo situation in the air. This was a last minute audible, and they made out well. It should not have been a last minute scenario though.

 

[Wisp]

To be clear, what he pulled off in the end has little to do with how he played out the situation. I like what he pulled too. I've been on here saying that it is the best return a goalie has garnered. That said, I still see this as a clunky and mismanaged situation. There is a separation there.

The return to me, is more about the strength of the player Schneider is, rather than Gillis's management to ensure the best return for a prime asset. It was said at the time of the draft (Friedmann) that the Canucks had a last minute meeting to switch gears after they learned about the buyout from another team (PHI) would leave the Luongo situation in the air. This was a last minute audible, and they made out well. It should not have been a last minute scenario though.

Fair enough.


Also, re: the bolded, can you link that? It's not the first I've heard that but I haven't been able to find the source article.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Fair enough.


Also, re: the bolded, can you link that? It's not the first I've heard that but I haven't been able to find the source article.

Heard it on CBC Hotstove radio podcast. I think on the 13th.

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

When Lack shows is worth in the NHL, and Horvat makes this team as the 3rd line center, this trade will be forgotten.

 

[Verviticus]

A stupid act doesn't make someone stupid overall. He's not stupid, but this was very poorly executed. Make no mistake, this was suspect GMing. It has nothing to do with emotion. I think you may be being a bit childish in your perception of my stance. He's gone against what many better Canucks posters have deemed the correct course of action here.

i didnt like it but i think, as i said earlier, he stepped out of "judge me by my method" and into "judge me by my results" - the realm of the carlyles and burkes and other crazies. if horvat flops, he gets a really large F with a circle instead of a small f surrounded by a bunch of as, bs and cs.

When Lack shows is worth in the NHL, and Horvat makes this team as the 3rd line center, this trade will be forgotten.

yeah, pretty much. i wish it wasn't a thing but here we are.

 

[Bleach Clean]

i didnt like it but i think, as i said earlier, he stepped out of "judge me by my method" and into "judge me by my results" - the realm of the carlyles and burkes and other crazies. if horvat flops, he gets a really large F with a circle instead of a small f surrounded by a bunch of as, bs and cs.

I viewed Gillis as apart from the "crazies", so for him to move towards their manner - let's just say I was non too thrilled.

GMs are judged by both method and result. It's why he was not criticized as heavily as he could have been for the Ballard deal. There was a direct need at play there, everyone understood it. When the method is no longer apparent, or is seen as suspect, then scrutiny of the result becomes that much more intense. Ideally, Gillis stays away from the realm of the Burkes and Carlyles overall...

 

[Jyrki21]

When Lack shows is worth in the NHL, and Horvat makes this team as the 3rd line center, this trade will be forgotten.

If Horvat tops out as a 3rd line center, that will just make me remember the trade all the more while Schneider tears up the league.

 

[asdfman]

If Horvat tops out as a 3rd line center, that will just make me remember the trade all the more while Schneider tears up the league.

That's not what he was implying

 

[Wisp]

If Horvat tops out as a 3rd line center, that will just make me remember the trade all the more while Schneider tears up the league.

Nuck This was talking about the most immediate possibilities - one of Swedish Gs stepping up and Horvat making the team. Not ceilings.

Any case, Schneider thriving in NJ isn't guaranteed either.

 

[Seattle Totems]

Bo Horvat is basically irrelevant to this debate. The only thing people are ever going to talk about is goaltending. Did they give up the wrong goaltender, or not?

IMO they did. Schneider is a much better goaltender at this point and Luongo is only going to get worse. That bonehead contract Gillis gave him is going to bite this team in the ass hard.

Mark my words:

Gillis will eventually lose his job because of this trade.

every single time Luongo gets lit up or anyone debates that the Canucks lost an important game or series because of Luongo the heat will be on Gillis. Luongo is an albatross.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Bo Horvat is basically irrelevant to this debate. The only thing people are ever going to talk about is goaltending. Did they give up the wrong goaltender, or not?

IMO they did. Schneider is a much better goaltender at this point and Luongo is only going to get worse. That bonehead contract Gillis gave him is going to bite this team in the ass hard.

Mark my words:

Gillis will eventually lose his job because of this trade.

every single time Luongo gets lit up or anyone debates that the Canucks lost an important game or series because of Luongo the heat will be on Gillis. Luongo is an albatross.

Hard to pin down why a GM gets fired, exactly. That said, I put this deal (again without Horvat outside the debate) as his second worst move as Canucks GM. He will wear this trade, from now, until he is eventually gone.

Yes, I agree that Luongo will be an albatross, or rather, lame duck here. Through little fault of his own play. The situation is set up so that if Luongo falters, he and the GM will face an undue amount of criticism because of it. Not good.

If they could still move him, they should, IMO. I don't think they will, because Gillis will be conservative with this roster going into this season. But in the short future, they should still move him.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Bo Horvat is basically irrelevant to this debate. The only thing people are ever going to talk about is goaltending. Did they give up the wrong goaltender, or not?

IMO they did. Schneider is a much better goaltender at this point and Luongo is only going to get worse. That bonehead contract Gillis gave him is going to bite this team in the ass hard.

Mark my words:

Gillis will eventually lose his job because of this trade.

every single time Luongo gets lit up or anyone debates that the Canucks lost an important game or series because of Luongo the heat will be on Gillis. Luongo is an albatross.

I disagree with all of this.

 

[keslerburrows]

I really don't see Gillis getting fired over this. It's not like Schneider will be glaring in our face in NJ. I mean that team isn't winning anything for a long time. If Schneider was traded to EDM? Then no matter how large the package we got in return (within realistic boundaries) if Schneider did help that team win a cup, or even just the west, THEN I could see Gillis at the very least take some serious heat.

 

[BoHorvatFan]

I don't think anyone would accuse Gillis of being dim. Shrewd, or perhaps even inconsiderate, sure. But just because you're angry he traded Schneider doesn't make him stupid.

The NHL is constantly changing, and just because he intended to do one thing under a previous CBA doesn't mean that after a new CBA comes in and having been ousted in a first round sweep that things can't change. Everyone, both players or other GMs are also aware of this.

And it's funny you mention the business perspective. From a business perspective, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to trade Schneider than to buy out Luongo. I've told you this before, but you didn't want to believe me. It happened, and it's time to move on now, for better or worse.

Our GM gets ZERO respect from anyone in the hockey world. He is trashed by almost every media outlet, CBC and TSN hate him. During the playoffs all I heard was how this guy came in and inherited all the strengths of our current team, hasn't brought in a forward that's scored a playoff goal in two years, makes horrible trades, can only seem to sign home province defensemen or give depth guys FMV, has allowed a culture of whining and diving and complaining and feuding with the league, the refs, the media, and his own players including Hodgson and Luongo.

He has the arrogance of a man that has built something incredible but if you take away the pieces he already had when he walked in the door and only had to re-sign, the team is lottery worthy. He couldn't put a great core over the top, has made it out of round two one time in five years and is now on a huge decline with horrible depth, holes all over the roster, a goalie that doesn't want to be here.

I'd say he's pretty dim. Incredible overrated, and taking us nowhere.

 

[Smokey McCanucks]

People are asking the wrong questions re: this trade. People are asking, "who is better/will be better, Schneider or Horvat?" The question we should be asking is, "is the difference between Schneider in net or Luongo in net worth as much as Horvat/9th pick?" Obviously the answer to that is no, there is not so much difference there as to be worth the 9th pick.

 

[Verviticus]

Well we won't know that until next year so if say its not obvious

 

[opendoor]

Our GM gets ZERO respect from anyone in the hockey world. He is trashed by almost every media outlet, CBC and TSN hate him. During the playoffs all I heard was how this guy came in and inherited all the strengths of our current team, hasn't brought in a forward that's scored a playoff goal in two years, makes horrible trades, can only seem to sign home province defensemen or give depth guys FMV, has allowed a culture of whining and diving and complaining and feuding with the league, the refs, the media, and his own players including Hodgson and Luongo.

He has the arrogance of a man that has built something incredible but if you take away the pieces he already had when he walked in the door and only had to re-sign, the team is lottery worthy. He couldn't put a great core over the top, has made it out of round two one time in five years and is now on a huge decline with horrible depth, holes all over the roster, a goalie that doesn't want to be here.

I'd say he's pretty dim. Incredible overrated, and taking us nowhere.

Why don't you try making teams out of the players guys like Stan Bowman and Peter Chiarelli brought in and tell me how good they'd be. Here, I'll make it easy for you and list the key players that predate those GMs:


Bowman: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Bickell, Bolland, Hjalmarsson, and Crawford.

Yeah, you'd barely even notice if those guys were gone.


Chiarelli: He's been on the job over 7 years now, yet Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic, Marchand, Chara, Thomas, and Rask, were all in the organization before he was, not to mention getting Kessel to move for assets as well.

Yep, another team where they still would've won the cup solely on the new GM's acquisitions.

 

[Alexistheman]

For me, it has never been about what he got in return for Schnieder. As much as everyone here likes him, he is relatively unproven, whether you choose to agree to that or not is your preference. He has played in only 91 games, put that in perspective when you are comparing him to what other goalies have returned. Compare to Halak who had 95 games who returned Eller and Schultz, Ian. Lars Eller was as much of a prospect as Horvat is at the time. But you consider that the Canucks traded Schnieder, for their choice of ~any~ prospect in the league(aside from the top 8[out of this draft year]). So for the return we got, its fine, adequate, not great.

What is the irritating part of this whole plan, and I think I speak for a lot of people. Is how they drug him around, pumping him up as the starter since LA game 3. Remove Luongo from his job, for no wrong-doing of himself, really and just mucked everything up, perhaps beyond all repair. Then when they do decide to trade him, which apparently they knew the night before the draft, they decide to not let either player know about what is going to happen, rather let them find out as they watch the draft, or get a text from someone after it happens. You flip their whole world around without giving them the time of day. I understand that it is a business and feelings should be thrown out at the door but theres a time and a place for being sympathetic towards a player, or in this case players. This was definitely a time for that.

So as a GM, Gillis did what he had to do, for the team, he didnt however do what was best for his players, the same people he has to do contract negotiations with in the future, in a broader sense.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Bo Horvat is basically irrelevant to this debate. The only thing people are ever going to talk about is goaltending. Did they give up the wrong goaltender, or not?

IMO they did. Schneider is a much better goaltender at this point and Luongo is only going to get worse. That bonehead contract Gillis gave him is going to bite this team in the ass hard.

Mark my words:

Gillis will eventually lose his job because of this trade.

every single time Luongo gets lit up or anyone debates that the Canucks lost an important game or series because of Luongo the heat will be on Gillis. Luongo is an albatross.

I agree with this. The sad thing will be the unjustified criticism and scrutiny on a player that hates it here, and badly wants out.

This just delayed the inevitable buyout until next offseason as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Nuckles]

Our GM gets ZERO respect from anyone in the hockey world. He is trashed by almost every media outlet, CBC and TSN hate him. During the playoffs all I heard was how this guy came in and inherited all the strengths of our current team, hasn't brought in a forward that's scored a playoff goal in two years, makes horrible trades, can only seem to sign home province defensemen or give depth guys FMV, has allowed a culture of whining and diving and complaining and feuding with the league, the refs, the media, and his own players including Hodgson and Luongo.

He has the arrogance of a man that has built something incredible but if you take away the pieces he already had when he walked in the door and only had to re-sign, the team is lottery worthy. He couldn't put a great core over the top, has made it out of round two one time in five years and is now on a huge decline with horrible depth, holes all over the roster, a goalie that doesn't want to be here.

I'd say he's pretty dim. Incredible overrated, and taking us nowhere.

So what, he's supposed to completely turn over a completely good team just so he can leave his mark on it? He managed to re-sign a bunch of our core players to great contracts, and pulled off some good trades and UFA signings that got us within one win of a cup. (and got us two president's trophies)

But hey, he's done nothing, right?