Confirmed with Link: [VAN/CGY] F Sven Baertschi to Vancouver for 2015 2nd round pick - Part II
- Thread starter CRDragon
- Start date
Likely a function of what you think of the player being traded/acquired more than the actual negotiation itself. If you liked Baertschi more, you'd probably think he was a fierce negotiator who stuck to his guns and other cliches. Ultimately I don't think you are seeing evidence of a bad negotiator so much as you are seeing trades that you personally do not like (relative to the price). That is fine and something we are all entitled to judge, but it isn't the same thing that you are saying.
you say these things like I watch Canucks games with my eyes closed. The numbers back up my own eye test. I like Clendening's first pass, his shot, and how he holds the line. I like how he's performed relative to his age and responsibility. Agreed, I think his skating needs work but its not something to fixate on. I'm encouraged by what I've seen - a guy who helps direct more pucks at the net then are directed against him - and the numbers back that up.
frankly, I think your own talent evaluations leave much to be desired especially when you can't substantiate them with anything that isn't anecdotal. You can scream about his skating but he's still in the green despite that.
drax0s
Registered User
It seems to me like people aren't happy with Benning's moves because it's not immediately obvious that he MAJORLY ripped off his trading partner. I can only imagine what the response would be by some posters here if we traded away a former 7th overall pick for the 16th overall pick in the same year. Personally, when evaluating Benning's trades, I have to look at what I'd think if we traded away our own prospects in a similar situation. For example:
(Oh, and the former 7th for 16th is Naslund for Stojanov, for anyone who didn't get it).
- We trade Kassian, a former 1st round pick with potential for a 2nd round pick because of defensive issues and the fact our coach and GM hate him (in my mind, a Baertschi comparable)
- Cassels goes for a 3rd round pick - the same we drafted him at, because we're stacked at center with Horvat, Gaunce, McCaan. (in my mind, a Pedan comparable)
- I can't even find a comparable trade to Vey because it's been forever since we had a prospect go a point per game for two seasons in the AHL. The closest would be trading Schroeder for a 2nd in the 2012-2013 season when he hit 33 pts in 42 games on the Wolves and everyone here was psyched about seeing him make his NHL debut.
(Oh, and the former 7th for 16th is Naslund for Stojanov, for anyone who didn't get it).
medhatcanuck
Registered User
It will be interesting to see how Baertschi responds in Utica. I think regardless if he plays poorly or well, because of his NHL experience and offensive upside, he'll be called up in case of NHL playoffs.
If Baertschi can adopt the "Real Good" systems and can then produce offensively, he'll earn his way to the NHL.
I honestly don't care much if Baertschi produces massive numbers in the AHL, I just want him to develop his defensive/forechecking game and adopt the new system. We can see a kid like Horvat who has come across offence, by learning the defence/systems first, then making the play b/c opportunities are created by utilizing the system.
I would love Baertschi to synergize (what a terrible word) with the WD way of playing. so that we can see him up with the big club sooner, but all accounts, it sounds like Benning doesn't have his hopes up that it will occur soon.
With Baertschi's footspeed problems, I don't really know if we want him and Gaunce to develop chemistry, because the pairing wouldn't be able to keep up with rate of play in NHL, I'm more or less hoping he clicks with McCann next season.
Baertschi - McCann - _____
Kenins - Horvat - Virtanen
Shinkaruk - Gaunce - Vey
Friesen - Cassels - Kassian
Jensen
I wouldn't mind something like this for the future, this is highly banking on McCann and Baertschi to reach their potential.
Secondly, the 2nd line would act as the checking line matching the other teams top line, and the third line would be more of the 2nd "scoring line".
Very interesting to see how Benning approaches the upcoming 2015 draft. I hope he continues to draft forward high, and find gem dmen through NCAA or in later rounds.
At this point, we could still use a LWer, RWer, or C, so long as they are top line material.
If Baertschi can adopt the "Real Good" systems and can then produce offensively, he'll earn his way to the NHL.
I honestly don't care much if Baertschi produces massive numbers in the AHL, I just want him to develop his defensive/forechecking game and adopt the new system. We can see a kid like Horvat who has come across offence, by learning the defence/systems first, then making the play b/c opportunities are created by utilizing the system.
I would love Baertschi to synergize (what a terrible word) with the WD way of playing. so that we can see him up with the big club sooner, but all accounts, it sounds like Benning doesn't have his hopes up that it will occur soon.
With Baertschi's footspeed problems, I don't really know if we want him and Gaunce to develop chemistry, because the pairing wouldn't be able to keep up with rate of play in NHL, I'm more or less hoping he clicks with McCann next season.
Baertschi - McCann - _____
Kenins - Horvat - Virtanen
Shinkaruk - Gaunce - Vey
Friesen - Cassels - Kassian
Jensen
I wouldn't mind something like this for the future, this is highly banking on McCann and Baertschi to reach their potential.
Secondly, the 2nd line would act as the checking line matching the other teams top line, and the third line would be more of the 2nd "scoring line".
Very interesting to see how Benning approaches the upcoming 2015 draft. I hope he continues to draft forward high, and find gem dmen through NCAA or in later rounds.
At this point, we could still use a LWer, RWer, or C, so long as they are top line material.
Addison Rae
Registered User
hopefully he will like MSL where Calgary gave up a undersize forward......and we all know what happen next.....beating his former team in the cup finals
Kassian isn't even remotely close to Baertschi. If he did trade him for a 2nd, half the boards would be singing his praises because "Desjardins is a coach, he knows best" "masters in social work
"Oh and the Naslund trade was hideous on Pittsburgh's side from the get go
Stojanov had 1 point in 58 games with Vancouver
same season
Naslund had 52 points in 66 games with Pittsburgh
That was laughable from the start
Stojanov had 1 point in 58 games with Vancouver
same season
Naslund had 52 points in 66 games with Pittsburgh
That was laughable from the start
drax0s
Registered User
Okay, but short of making some snarky "haha optimists" comment, you'd be happy if Kassian went for a 2nd round pick?Kassian isn't even remotely close to Baertschi. If he did trade him for a 2nd, half the boards would be singing his praises because "Desjardins is a coach, he knows best" "masters in social work
Addison Rae
Registered User
I'll stick to my guns originally and say I like this deal, a lot. Sven is 22, sure his numbers aren't fantastic at the NHL level but, he's been playing with awful linemates this year, and has been treated very poorly by Hartley.
He was dynamic in the CHL, comparable to what Ehlers is now. Has been top 2 on his AHL team in PPG twice in 3 years, and has a NHL ppg of .4 which is far from bad.
He was afraid of making mistakes under Hartley in Calgary and his game was neutralized we've seen it first hand here with Kassian. A 2nd round pick has a 30% chance of even playing 50 games at the NHL level, you're getting a guy on the cusp of being an NHL player with a high ceiling, don't see how you could say no.
He was dynamic in the CHL, comparable to what Ehlers is now. Has been top 2 on his AHL team in PPG twice in 3 years, and has a NHL ppg of .4 which is far from bad.
He was afraid of making mistakes under Hartley in Calgary and his game was neutralized we've seen it first hand here with Kassian. A 2nd round pick has a 30% chance of even playing 50 games at the NHL level, you're getting a guy on the cusp of being an NHL player with a high ceiling, don't see how you could say no.
Of course not.
If Kassian was 5'11 and couldn't make the Flames I'd be ecstatic with it.
Kassian put up 29 points in 73 games last season and has 15 in just 37 this season. How is that the same as Baertchi putting up 25 points in 36 AHL games? That doesn't even take into account that Zack is 6'3'' and can fight and hit.
I'm fine with Baertschi as well, hoping he does well.
One of the good things is this management and coaching team have coddled and given preferential treatment to the guys they have brought in. I'd gladly give Baertschi all of Vey and Dorsett's offensive minutes.
Kassian has 36 ES points in his last 80 NHL games. He isn't remotely a Baertschi comparable, even before getting into the value of his size/toughness. Guy is a fully established NHL player, and a good one.
If Cassels (or Subban) is in the ECHL 18 months from now, then he can be compared to Pedan.
Addison Rae
Registered User
In a heartbeat, really. Vey flat out isn't an NHL player, when Richardson comes back I really hope he doesn't play more than once every three nights.
Dorsett is an alright 12th forward, but when everyone's healthy he really shouldn't be in the lineup.
Pip
Registered User
Kassian is way more valuable than Baertschi. Kassian is a legitimate NHLer with just as much, if not more, upside than Baertschi.
ShouldveDraftedFiala
Registered User
- Feb 20, 2007
- 1,964
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this is fair. I don't know about 'more upside' but Kass is already an NHL asset that can drive play.
both of them are 13th overall picks, coincidentally.
also, as an aside, I have a friend who likes to rumor monger and insists the flames initially asked for Kassian and a 3rd for Sven. i don't believe him and pay him no mind.
Different type of player. Kassian has a lot of upside but the probability he reaches his max potential is very low. That's the main reason he has been frustrating for the coaching staff, you see how good he can be and how he can take over a game but then you see him invisible some nights.
Baertschi might not make it to the NHL but if he does, he could make a player like ZK much better. Completely different type of player that also can take over a game. Think of him as someone like Kane who could score from anywhere and give you 2 or 3 goals late in a game when you need it. That's not something that ZK likely can do but its something Baertschi can.
If both reach their potential, Baertschi will score quite a few more goals than ZK but ZK will bring non-scoring elements that SB won't. You need both type of players if you want any chance at winning a cup.
Yossarian54
Registered User
I agree. I give credence to the idea that Treveling's statement would be designed to appeal to fans upset over losing a top prospect.
That aside though, I frankly don't care if Benning isn't a fierce negotiator. I very much liked Gillis as a GM and his ideas. But, if he had a fault when it came to trading, it was that he seemed to hold out for the 'maximum return'. Which came back to bite us on several occasions. It is no use extracting maximum 'return' for your picks if it comes to late or isn't exactly what you value. Benning clearly has identified a need: marginalised players with potential upside in the 22-24 age bracket. And he has gone out and got them promptly, rather than waiting around to extract maximum "value". It may end up being an incorrect strategy (personally I don't think so), but you can't say he doesn't have a clear plan and isn't getting on with it.
