Confirmed with Link: [VAN/CBJ] Canucks acquire F Tyler Motte, Jussi Jokinen for F Thomas Vanek

[CanaFan]

His value bombed going from 15 goals in 48 games to 2 goals in 20. Am I the only seeing this? As I explained, teams want plug and play players at the deadline and if there's a doubt that you can come in and produce your value goes down.

You and a few other “special” posters here might be the only people focussing exclusively on a 20 game stretch 12 months ago, yes. One where he actually scored 10 pts in 20 games.

Considering he went on to play another 61 games and scored 17 goals and 41 pts after that, it seems incredibly myopic to believe teams continued to focus solely on a 20 game stretch to evaluate a player. I mean if Minnesota has traded Eric Staal, would other teams have focussed on the 3 goals he scored with the Rangers after the 2015-16 TDL, or the 42 goals he scored this year?

And Motte is signed next season. Geesh. I should clarify that for Florida, a "cap dump" includes a salary dump.

So when Benning acquires 24 year old former first round picks stuck in the minors it’s a viable strategy but when Detroit does it it’s a cap dump?

Interesting consistency.

 

[ChefBoiRD]

You're the one that first brought up the subject sport. I merely responded by stating Gilligan has dealt a player on an expiring contract like Vanek [subject of this thread unlike Sammy] for a pick unlike Benning (Kesler doesn't count since it was Kesler who wanted to be traded just like trying to give credit to Gillis for acquiring an additional 2nd round pick for hiring Torts).

We should get back to the thread topic of Vanek

 

[Melvin]

Ya another day where posters make the same arguments.

People are going to keep making the same arguments until you have something reasonable to refute them that isn't a fallacy.

 

[Hit the post]

We should get back to the thread topic of Vanek

We should re-sign Vanek in the off-season so Benning can deal him at the next trade deadline for another Motte type of player.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

We should re-sign Vanek in the off-season so Benning can deal him at the next trade deadline for another Motte type of player.

He went for a 3rd + cap dump in one season, to motte + cap dump the next, all the while scoring at around 50 point pace. If the progression is linear, he will return a cap dump only next season due to the "he is now 1 year older" theory. And that is assuming he remains productive. You sure you want him back? Lol

 

[Black Noise]

He went for a 3rd + cap dump in one season, to motte + cap dump the next, all the while scoring at around 50 point pace. If the progression is linear, he will return a cap dump only next season due to the "he is now 1 year older" theory. And that is assuming he remains productive. You sure you want him back? Lol

Can't wait to trade Vanek straight up for Seabrook next deadline

 

[sandwichbird2023]

You have such a difficult time understanding one of life's most basic things: different things are different.

You can grasp that Grabner is not Vanek, yes? Now take the next step and understand that Maroon and Plekanec are also not Vanek. Four completely distinct entities that could have identical value, or value with extreme divergence.

Now for something a bit more complicated: even if you are talking about the same thing, the value of that item does change over time and space.

Understand these inherent truths, grasshopper, for wisdom hides within them.

- Players that play the same position, produce the same rate, has the same expiring contracts, and aged similarly is NOT comparable as "they are different entity".
- Exact same player in his mid 30's scoring at near exact same rate is NOT comparable as value diminished.
- Use the Eric Lindros trade from the 90's as comparison to make a point.
- Accuse others of having a "difficult time understanding one of life's most basic things: different things are different."
Mmm...I'm going need some time to digest this one.

 

[ChefBoiRD]

Can't wait to trade Vanek straight up for Seabrook next deadline

This is going somewhere

 

[Peter10]

They're raving about Motte's play in Utica......if this guy pans out, there's a lot of posters on this board who are going to be eating humble pie, particularly if they re-sign Vanek in the off-season.

If if if and if if if if then maybe Benning isn't a complete failure of a GM.

 

[nowhereman]

If if if and if if if if then maybe Benning isn't a complete failure of a GM.

He's completely failed his way into one of, if not the strongest prospect pool in hockey and a couple of potential superstars in Boeser and Pettersson.

Just awful.

 

[CanaFan]

He's completely failed his way into one of, if not the strongest prospect pool in hockey and a couple of potential superstars in Boeser and Pettersson.

Just awful.

That is how the draft works, correct.

 

[ChefBoiRD]

That is how the draft works, correct.

Yes true my good man, but if the drafting is of Mike Gillis standards then well - the "just awful" quote by the previous poster isn't the sarcasm that it was meant to be. Yeah/No?

 

[CanaFan]

Yes true my good man, but if the drafting is of Mike Gillis standards then well - the "just awful" quote by the previous poster isn't the sarcasm that it was meant to be. Yeah/No?

Well you see the draft works by giving successful teams really low picks and unsuccessful teams really high picks. This means Benning has, literally, “failed his way to one of, if not the strongest prospect pools in hockey”.

Not sure what there is for an unbiased, rational person to object to tbh.

 

[nowhereman]

That is how the draft works, correct.

Yes, because good drafting is as simple as being a poor team, right? Tell that to Edmonton, Phoenix, and Buffalo. Columbus went through a stretch where they drafted top 10 almost every year and had almost nothing to show for it.

Benning's three best draft picks were a first year All-Star at #23, a potential superstar at #5 (who was considered a reach by pretty much the entire hockey world) and a potential #1 goalie in the 2nd round. Dahlen came from an Ottawa fleecing and Adam "Hobey Baker" Gaudette was a 5th round pick. It could just be me, but that doesn't sound like a guy who was gifted a top prospect pool.

But I suppose Benning should only be chastized for his mistakes and not given any credit for his accomplishments?

 

[ChefBoiRD]

Well you see the draft works by giving successful teams really low picks and unsuccessful teams really high picks. This means Benning has, literally, “failed his way to one of, if not the strongest prospect pools in hockey”.

Not sure what there is for an unbiased, rational person to object to tbh.

Boeser - 23rd overall pick

Button's 5 Canuck prospects in his Top 50 NHL affiliated Prospects

Gaudette - 5th round pick
Demko - 2nd round pick
Dahlen (2nd round pick) I know, not drafted by Benning but BUTTON LOVES HIM!

Tryamkin - 3rd round pick

Forsling - 4th round pick (A Benning Hate Crew favourite)
McCann - 24th overall pick (A Benning Hate Crew favourite)

Team USA 2018 WJC member - Will Lockwood - 3rd round pick

Lind - 2nd round pick
Gadjovich - 2nd round pick Team Canada WJC Member

Dipietro - 3rd round pick

Jasek, McKenzie, Brisebios

Signings - McEwen, Sautner, Chatfiled

Hm, Benning not doing well outside the lottery pick zone? Yeah/No?

 

[Black Noise]

Boeser - 23rd overall pick

Button's 5 Canuck prospects in his Top 50 NHL affiliated Prospects

Gaudette - 5th round pick
Demko - 2nd round pick
Dahlen (2nd round pick) I know, not drafted by Benning but BUTTON LOVES HIM!

Tryamkin - 3rd round pick

Forsling - 4th round pick (A Benning Hate Crew favourite)
McCann - 24th overall pick (A Benning Hate Crew favourite)

Team USA 2018 WJC member - Will Lockwood - 3rd round pick

Lind - 2nd round pick
Gadjovich - 2nd round pick Team Canada WJC Member

Dipietro - 3rd round pick

Jasek, McKenzie, Brisebios

Signings - McEwen, Sautner, Chatfiled

Hm, Benning not doing well outside the lottery pick zone? Yeah/No?

Every single team has prospects like Lind, Gadjovich, Jasek, McKenzie, Brisebois, MacEwan, Sautner, Forsling, DiPietro and Chatfield. Out of that list I'd be surprised if more than 1 ends up being long term NHL player.

Also the fact you used McKenzie as a reason that Benning is doing well out side of the lottery zone is hysterical. He had 49 points in 64 games as an overager for christ sakes.

 

[CanaFan]

Yes, because good drafting is as simple as being a poor team, right? Tell that to Edmonton, Phoenix, and Buffalo. Columbus went through a stretch where they drafted top 10 almost every year and had almost nothing to show for it.

Benning's three best draft picks were a first year All-Star at #23, a potential superstar at #5 (who was considered a reach by pretty much the entire hockey world) and a potential #1 goalie in the 2nd round. Dahlen came from an Ottawa fleecing and Adam "Hobey Baker" Gaudette was a 5th round pick. It could just be me, but that doesn't sound like a guy who was gifted a top prospect pool.

But I suppose Benning should only be chastized for his mistakes and not given any credit for his accomplishments?

The problem is how you phrased your initial statement. If you take 2 top 5 picks out of the mix - which Benning was awarded for finishing 28th and 29th in the league aka doing a shit ton of failing - it isn't "one of, if not the strongest prospect pools in the NHL". It's got some good pieces, which other teams have too. So without the failing, it's a middle of the pack group. Hence why I pointed out the irony of your statement.

 

[CanaFan]

Boeser - 23rd overall pick

Button's 5 Canuck prospects in his Top 50 NHL affiliated Prospects

Gaudette - 5th round pick
Demko - 2nd round pick
Dahlen (2nd round pick) I know, not drafted by Benning but BUTTON LOVES HIM!

Tryamkin - 3rd round pick

Forsling - 4th round pick (A Benning Hate Crew favourite)
McCann - 24th overall pick (A Benning Hate Crew favourite)

Team USA 2018 WJC member - Will Lockwood - 3rd round pick

Lind - 2nd round pick
Gadjovich - 2nd round pick Team Canada WJC Member

Dipietro - 3rd round pick

Jasek, McKenzie, Brisebios

Signings - McEwen, Sautner, Chatfiled

Hm, Benning not doing well outside the lottery pick zone? Yeah/No?

That's a lotta names there boi. Are you sure most of them are "good prospects"? Seems like 2-3 actual good prospects and a hellavu lotta filler. Would fans of other teams be unable to list 15 players that were drafted in the past 4 years and are in various levels of hockey below the NHL? Cause that's really all you've done here.

 

[ChefBoiRD]

That's a lotta names there boi. Are you sure most of them are "good prospects"? Seems like 2-3 actual good prospects and a hellavu lotta filler. Would fans of other teams be unable to list 15 players that were drafted in the past 4 years and are in various levels of hockey below the NHL? Cause that's really all you've done here.

Hey it's not me who keeps ranking the Canucks prospect so high, you need to be gettin' mad bro at the likes of Button, The Hockey Writers, theys the ones raving about Bennings work!

Gillis prospects from 6 drafts still playing in the NHL

Horvat
Connauton (traded along with a 2nd round pick for Derek Roy)
Hutton
Gaunce

 

[Black Noise]

Hey it's not me who keeps ranking the Canucks prospect so high, you need to be gettin' mad bro at the likes of Button, The Hockey Writers, theys the ones raving about Bennings work!

Gillis prospects from 6 drafts still playing in the NHL

Horvat
Connauton (traded along with a 2nd round pick for Derek Roy)
Hutton
Gaunce

Great job completely ignoring the argument by posting an appeal to authority and a red herring. Classic, don't expect much more from you though.

 

[CanaFan]

Hey it's not me who keeps ranking the Canucks prospect so high, you need to be gettin' mad bro at the likes of Button, The Hockey Writers, theys the ones raving about Bennings work!

Gillis prospects from 6 drafts still playing in the NHL

Horvat
Connauton (traded along with a 2nd round pick for Derek Roy)
Hutton
Gaunce

But Button isn't the one who said the pool didn't come from Benning's failings. Which it most certainly did, or least the portion that counts for the most in these rankings. Or do you think our pool is where it is because it has Jalen Chatfield and Gulliame Brisebois lol

 

[CanaFan]

Great job completely ignoring the argument by posting an appeal to authority and a red herring. Classic, don't expect much more from you though.

To be fair, it's hard to argue a losing position without resorting to those tactics. I cut them a lot of slack because truthfully, I'm not sure I'd even know how to argue a pro-Benning position. I'd probably bring up a long-ago fired GM a lot to try to make it seem like my guy is better and hope the other side takes the bait.

 

[ChefBoiRD]

Great job completely ignoring the argument by posting an appeal to authority and a red herring. Classic, don't expect much more from you though.

Bringing up other sources who give high regards to the Canucks current prospect pool is ignoring the argument? I always love it when the full patch BCH members bring up stuff like "appeal to authority, red herring"

QUICK! Put out the fire before it gets any momentum!

 

[ChefBoiRD]

But Button isn't the one who said the pool didn't come from Benning's failings.

circling back to the sarcasm of the original "failings" post?

Did I read the original post wrong? Did I sense sarcasm? Or did my senses tell me wrong?

 

[Peter10]

He's completely failed his way into one of, if not the strongest prospect pool in hockey and a couple of potential superstars in Boeser and Pettersson.

Just awful.

I hear a lot about not becoming the Oilers, since Benning was hired they have drafted guys like Draisaitl, McDavid, Puljujarvi and Yamamoto. You brag about a prospect pool that futures Boeser and Pettersson, if anything that should give you an idea that a couple of top end guys don't absolve an incompetent GM