Confirmed Trade: [VAN/CAR] Ethan Bear (18.2% retained) and Lane Pederson for 2023 5th round pick

[Le Barron de HF]

I'm surprised Carolina caved.

Polar opposite from what I expected.

It's a bear market as they say.

 

[lawrence]

I always thought bear will look good in a bruins jersey. Bear? Bruin jersey? Get it ? Ok I show myself out now.

 

[Aqualung]

Canucks need a defensively responsible minute muncher. Bear is not that and I’d bet this desperation move is more likely to fail.

 

[Xirik]

Wut? Sportsnet isn't biased towards the leafs. You people from lesser Canada are just insecure.




I'm sure there were other teams also looking at Bear but Sportsnet needed to hit their leafs news quota.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

i guess, but i still find it perplexing that a team deep into ltir that fancies itself a contender sees it that way. that math also assumes there was no way to get value out of pederson or move pederson except to tie him to bear. they will now have to add someone now and likely spend more than they just saved. unless they expect to get through the season and a hopefully long playoff run with only two ahl depth forwards with more than 2 nhl games.

an interesting detail i just noticed is the canes have dzingel parked in the ahl as depth at $750k. it's interesting because the sharks waived pederson last year when they took dzingel off waivers. those guys must be frenemies.

Dzingel is on a two-way so he’s not making 750k in Chicago. The contract pays him 150k at the ahl level with a guaranteed 200k for the season.

 

[Dempsey]

Even if he's not exactly what they need, he's still an NHL defenseman and the Canucks needed that. I hope he flourishes for Vancouver and justifies his qualifying offer.

 

[Unsustainable]

Wut? Sportsnet isn't biased towards the leafs. You people from lesser Canada are just insecure.




I'm sure there were other teams also looking at Bear but Sportsnet needed to hit their leafs news quota.

All trades go through the Leafs approval first

 

[Nucker42]

I’m excited about Bear. Low cost if it’s a disaster then flip him at the deadline or don’t qualify him.

Canucks struggle so much to move the puck from the back end. Guys like Burroughs, Schenn, Myers, OEL are decent defensively but really don’t do well with zone exits and the Canucks just have too many of the same player.

He immediately becomes one of the Canucks best puck movers. He might be a bit too offensive to play with Hughes but I thought a pairing with Dermott would actually be unreal and moving the puck.

We will see, either way it will be interesting to see what they do. Burroughs and Schenn are both UFA’s. I like both players but really they don’t need both. I think keep Burroughs on a 1 year deal and move Schenn at the deadline.

 

[bleedgreen]

so your theory as a canes fan is that the sharks insisted on adjusting the deal so the canes took on slightly more cash liability than would have resulted from straight retention? and by slightly, i mean less than 10% of the total cash obligation.

i think that is called projection.

like most teams, san jose is not as cash obsessed as the canes. i expect they had a hockey motive for doing what they did like getting rid of a bad fit and clearing room for lorentz. for the canes, i cannot say, but leaving aside cash considerations i'd say they made a partial hockey trade bringing back pederson in return for lorentz hoping for cheap depth, and then were not impressed by pederson's camp and moved him along.

but then again i am no canes expert. i am still trying to figure out the canes' logic of trading bear with retention without first waiving him to see if anyone would take him as is.

Nobody takes players that expensive on waivers. They want you to take money back or pay them to take the contract. The Canes obviously checked with every team in the league multiple times. That includes waiver talks.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Nobody takes players that expensive on waivers. They want you to take money back or pay them to take the contract. The Canes obviously checked with every team in the league multiple times. That includes waiver talks.

oh come on. do the canes have truth serum now?

why would a team tell you they would claim a player off waivers if you waived them? that is 100% not information you would disclose unless you are an idiot. for one thing, the canes would use that information in negotiations with any other interested team with lower waiver priority than you. for another, the canes might actually be trying to get the player through waivers so if you tell them you will claim, they won't waive him. for another, and most importantly, if you think you might get the player with retention you definitely want to make the canes feel nobody wants the player off waivers.

people here are giving the canes way too much credit. they made a transaction by which they potentially gave up precious cap space and a depth piece for a benefit of a very small amount of cash (until they replace pederson's depth) and a late round draft pick compared to losing the player on waivers. cap space is, self-evidently, the most precious commodity in the league, especially for a contender currently using ltir to be cap compliant. depth pieces are depth pieces and contenders need some. the canes have almost no experienced call up forward depth and the incremental difference between a pederson and some other dude they pick up instead is likely to be small potatoes and the cash hit the same.

otoh the price they will pay at the tdl to claw back that lost cap space if they need it to get the guy they want will be higher.

if this was a hockey move where pederson is a serious problem for some reason then i understand it. as a cash move or even just to try and upgrade on pederson it seems very questionable. it's doubtful whether they made a better deal than just waiving bear first and hoping someone takes him. it looks to me like they outsmarted themselves. we'll see what they do as the season goes on both with cap management and with acquiring other depth.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Why will the need to add someone?

Bear was an 8th defenseman who wasn't on the ice so they don't need to replace him.
Pederson was in the AHL and doesn't need replacing or the Wolves can get someone on an AHL contract that doesn't impact Carolina (as they often do).

Pederson already passed through waivers and nobody claimed him. I get that sometimes guys pass through waivers and then get traded, but that's usually because the team trading for him didn't want to take on a players full salary without sending salary back (as happened with Jussi Jokinen a couple of times. It's a safe assumption to make that the Canes wouldn't get any value out of him.

It's not perplexing to me at all. I think you are overvaluing that $400K in cap space, thus why your are perplexed. Canes need to move Bear and needed that cap space to get Pacioretty back in a month or so and they saved some really money and got a pick. Letting him sit without playing wasn't good for him so they moved him now.

Like I said, not overly complicated.

no it's not complicated. it is over-complicated by the canes and over-simplified by you. bottom line: it seems risky and a little weird to me to squander cap space over an ahl depth piece and a late round draft pick. it only makes sense if retention was what was needed to move bear and they did not know that to be the case unless they waived him.

and i think it will impact carolina. if the team has no moves or potenbtial moves that causes cap space issues at the tdl and if the team does not run into a cap crunch this season then i guess you will be vindicated on that point and i will be wrong. time will tell. i think we can agree it will cost them a whole lot more to claw back this cap space later if they need any.

consider this. imagine they waived bear and someone took him and then they made the same sacrifices as in this trade just to dump pederson. that's your argument against waiving bear first. what you are saying is that if they could have traded pederson for a 5th but with $400k retention counting against the cap there is nothing wrong with that. i think most people here would think that is a bizarre use of cap space by a contender.

i think they should have waived bear first to see if they could offload him with zero retention. then if he noves they could have dealt with pederson separately or just lived with the incremental difference between pederson and whoever else will now be at the bottom of their call up depth. because the cap space is more valuable. and doing this to save $350k you are likely top spend anyway on another player is penny wise pound foolish.

Dzingel is on a two-way so he’s not making 750k in Chicago. The contract pays him 150k at the ahl level with a guaranteed 200k for the season.

you are correct. i misread cap friendly. the point though is that dzingel is following pederson round the league stealing his job.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

people here are giving the canes way too much credit.

LOL, nobody is giving them credit. It's a minor/nothing deal and the difference between waiving him and trading him is minor They needed to get rid of Bear eventually to put Pacioretty back on the roster in December. Gaining $350K in cash, retaining $400K in cap space and getting a 5th round pick are all peanuts. You're making it out to be way more of an issue than it is for some reason, which is fine, but clearly the Canes management disagrees with you. If they would have waived him and someone claimed him, I'd have been fine. I'm fine with this move also.

they made a transaction by which they potentially gave up precious cap space and a depth piece for a benefit of a very small amount of cash (until they replace pederson's depth)

Again, they don't have to replace Pederson's depth, at least not as it pertains to cash from Carolina, so not sure why you continue to say this as it's already been explained to you. The Wolves have a lot of guys on AHL only deals that they pay for (not the Canes) and their roster currently lists 18 forwards right now so they don't need to replace him in Chicago. If they choose to, it will very likely be an AHL deal where it doesn't impact the Canes at all.

Unless the Canes get a rash of injuries, Pedersen wasn't going to be called up by Carolina as there were other forwards ahead of him on the depth cart. And if there are so many injuries that they would have needed to call up an AHL/NHL tweeter like Pedersen, they have far bigger problems.

You're making way too big of a deal over $400K in cap space, which is 0.48% of their total cap.

It's fine, we disagree and clearly the Canes mgmt disagrees with you. Time to move on.

 

[bleedgreen]

oh come on. do the canes have truth serum now?

why would a team tell you they would claim a player off waivers if you waived them? that is 100% not information you would disclose unless you are an idiot. for one thing, the canes would use that information in negotiations with any other interested team with lower waiver priority than you. for another, the canes might actually be trying to get the player through waivers so if you tell them you will claim, they won't waive him. for another, and most importantly, if you think you might get the player with retention you definitely want to make the canes feel nobody wants the player off waivers.

people here are giving the canes way too much credit. they made a transaction by which they potentially gave up precious cap space and a depth piece for a benefit of a very small amount of cash (until they replace pederson's depth) and a late round draft pick compared to losing the player on waivers. cap space is, self-evidently, the most precious commodity in the league, especially for a contender currently using ltir to be cap compliant. depth pieces are depth pieces and contenders need some. the canes have almost no experienced call up forward depth and the incremental difference between a pederson and some other dude they pick up instead is likely to be small potatoes and the cash hit the same.

otoh the price they will pay at the tdl to claw back that lost cap space if they need it to get the guy they want will be higher.

if this was a hockey move where pederson is a serious problem for some reason then i understand it. as a cash move or even just to try and upgrade on pederson it seems very questionable. it's doubtful whether they made a better deal than just waiving bear first and hoping someone takes him. it looks to me like they outsmarted themselves. we'll see what they do as the season goes on both with cap management and with acquiring other depth.

I think there’s a lot more straight forward honesty between than you think. I think they tell each other straight up, I won’t take this guy without you taking something back - waivers or not. I think it’s rare for a team to do something they said they wouldn’t do. Sure some teams throw some players on waivers because they don’t really care or hope someone picks a guy up but when they’re looking to trade someone like Bear I think they’ve had all the conversations they need to know what’s going to happen. I don’t believe it’s as cloak and dagger as people think.

You’re working way too hard to find a flaw with the Canes. The easy flaw was that they qualified him thinking they could get something for him then couldn’t because they were wrong. Canes fans are pretty openly admitting management outsmarted themselves.

 

[jackjohnson]

I’m excited about Bear. Low cost if it’s a disaster then flip him at the deadline or don’t qualify him.

Canucks struggle so much to move the puck from the back end. Guys like Burroughs, Schenn, Myers, OEL are decent defensively but really don’t do well with zone exits and the Canucks just have too many of the same player.

He immediately becomes one of the Canucks best puck movers. He might be a bit too offensive to play with Hughes but I thought a pairing with Dermott would actually be unreal and moving the puck.

We will see, either way it will be interesting to see what they do. Burroughs and Schenn are both UFA’s. I like both players but really they don’t need both. I think keep Burroughs on a 1 year deal and move Schenn at the deadline.

Nahh I like Schenn and wouldnt move him at deadline. He is more valuable to Canucks and is their enforcer

 

[krutovsdonut]

I think there’s a lot more straight forward honesty between than you think. I think they tell each other straight up, I won’t take this guy without you taking something back - waivers or not. I think it’s rare for a team to do something they said they wouldn’t do. Sure some teams throw some players on waivers because they don’t really care or hope someone picks a guy up but when they’re looking to trade someone like Bear I think they’ve had all the conversations they need to know what’s going to happen. I don’t believe it’s as cloak and dagger as people think.

You’re working way too hard to find a flaw with the Canes. The easy flaw was that they qualified him thinking they could get something for him then couldn’t because they were wrong. Canes fans are pretty openly admitting management outsmarted themselves.

i think there's a ton of straight forward honesty in hockey gm chatter but not when the team's interests are affected.

i agree teams would be unlikely to flat out lie, but i doubt they'd give a straight answer unless they have zero interest in the player and, even then, they might not answer on principle. that goes double for teams in your own conference or division or who think a competitor might be chasing bear. it's not a trade discussion so why provide that info when it has value to the asking team and might be used to facilitate a deal to a competing team?

it's also a bad idea to go to the trouble to ask all the teams in the league. that's 31 phone calls. not a call agms can easily make and get a straight answer so you're talking a big time commitment by the gm. you go to that much effort and word gets around fast that you are seriously considering that option and that tells interested teams where you are at on value and motivation. plus elliotte friedman tweets about it.

you can certainly ask a team if they are interested in acquiring the player and if they are but don't ask for retention or a salary back you can infer they would take him off waivers, but if you flat out ask i think it would go like this.

canes "would you take bear if we waived him?"

disinterested gm throwing a bone "doubt it. i can't see us being interested / in the position to do that."

cagey disinterested gm or gm who might be interested "not sure. we haven't evaluated that. i'd have to talk to the guys if that came up. would give us some tough decision,."

trade interested gm "we'd have to discuss that if it came up. tough to fit the salary in. would make more sense i think if there was retention."

 

[Alwalys]

.

 

[Paulinbc]

I guess your comment in the previous thread about how 'rumours and the press are completely meaningless' was a little off.

No. you throw enough bullshit at a wall eventually one piece is going to stick.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Dzingel is on a two-way so he’s not making 750k in Chicago. The contract pays him 150k at the ahl level with a guaranteed 200k for the season.

Also, he has been playing well below NHL caliber hockey for quite some time now. I doubt he sniffs the Canes roster in anything less than an emergency context.

 

[Ace of Hades]

He's been okay. But he's certainly not someone you would lose sleep over losing on waivers.

He has been playing above expectations and is holding his own on the top 4 spot. He is definitely not someone you would want to lose on waivers especially when he is cheap and NHL calibre. You remove Poolman and Stillman, while keeping him.

 

[franste Perreault]

1st move from Vancouver, we can say it's a minor move. It will not be the last move from front office but nothing will happen (big name trade) in the next 2 weeks. But after we will see where the team are on standing and after that evaluate their needs and try to make the big trade.

 

[Discipline Daddy]

For all the hand wringing from non-Canes fans over the $400k retention. With this retention, we still save $1.8M in cap space, since we no longer have Bear. So I'd much rather have the $0.4M constraint than a $2.2M constraint.

Why didn't we go waivers? I'm sure the front office looked into it. With trading Lane Pederson, the Canes save real dollars by shedding his and losing on the Bear retention. Since the Canes are operating all season under LTIR from Gardner, and temporarily have the LTIR of Kase (who knows how long) and Pacioretty (probably until January-ish), we can't accrue cap space anyway. We have plenty of flexibility. Now, when Pac comes back, we don't have to send anybody down to make it work.

And from the defense perspective, Jalen Chatfield is simply a much better player in our system today than Ethan Bear. A light year better. Calvin de Haan and Dylan Coughlan are also ahead on the pecking order. So even as it stands with losing Bear, we still can run 7D for the rest of the season. If we have injuries, I'd rather play Largesson or LaJoie anyway than Ethan Bear.

Lastly, all the best to Bear. He wasn't great for us on the ice, but he was a real pro off the ice. He never bitched about things publicly to my knowledge. He is a great guy and I really hope he gets a regular spot on Vancouver. Just like Chatfield found his game here, and Bear might find his game there, sometimes you just need another chance with another team.

 

[NotOpie]

canes "would you take bear if we waived him?"

disinterested gm throwing a bone "doubt it. i can't see us being interested / in the position to do that."

cagey disinterested gm or gm who might be interested "not sure. we haven't evaluated that. i'd have to talk to the guys if that came up. would give us some tough decision,."

trade interested gm "we'd have to discuss that if it came up. tough to fit the salary in. would make more sense i think if there was retention."

There are something like 9 teams with non-LTIR cap space who could afford Bear. Who knows how many needed a defenseman like him....meaning a guy who can't beat out a guy with 88 NHL games and a guy with 34 NHL games under their respective belts. He was no longer an asset for the Hurricanes. He was a liability. Giving up $400,000 in cap space (while gaining $350,000 in actual dollars) was a cheap price to pay.....th 5th round pick was a bonus.

I also think folks are overthinking the qualification of Bear this Summer. The organization likely believed that Bear could rehabilitate himself and, at least, be a reliable 3rd pairing guy. So it was a gamble qualifying him, one that didn't pan out. Bear proved to the team that he's just not very good. Truth be told the Canes have better options in Chicago for an 8th or 9th defender.

 

[krutovsdonut]

There are something like 9 teams with non-LTIR cap space who could afford Bear. Who knows how many needed a defenseman like him....meaning a guy who can't beat out a guy with 88 NHL games and a guy with 34 NHL games under their respective belts. He was no longer an asset for the Hurricanes. He was a liability. Giving up $400,000 in cap space (while gaining $350,000 in actual dollars) was a cheap price to pay.....th 5th round pick was a bonus.

I also think folks are overthinking the qualification of Bear this Summer. The organization likely believed that Bear could rehabilitate himself and, at least, be a reliable 3rd pairing guy. So it was a gamble qualifying him, one that didn't pan out. Bear proved to the team that he's just not very good. Truth be told the Canes have better options in Chicago for an 8th or 9th defender.

yes i conceed. i apologize for having the audacity to have doubts. i now see the light. every move the canes make is 4d brilliance and their is no possibility they outsmarted themselves competitively trying to please their penny pinching owner to shed a meaningless buried contract for a player who was providing back up depth. they have the exact amount of perfect ahl depth and they will suffer no unexpected injuries or adversity on their inevitable march to the cup. they will never miss the $400k in cap space at the tdl as they have already checked with gms to determine what assets they might covet who may be available and they have all answered truthfully including their bottom line prices. there was never even a possibility a team would have taken bear on waivers anyway because the canes canvassed everyone and they all gave direct truthful answers and nobody could afford him anyway using ltir even though the team that acquired him used ltir.

i recall when canes fans were fun. now you guys are coming up fast on leaf fans for bloody minded obnoxious my shit never stinks self confidence. have a nice day and bless all your hearts.

 

[DeltaSwede]

I mean isn't it highly likely that Pederson ended up being a part of the deal to motivate the Canes to go a long with retaining 400k?

"Well we are gonna need you to retain a little because of our cap situation, then we can get him in here"
"We don't want to retain but if we are gonna have to, to make this happen, you're taking this 750k one-way deal your way so we don't have to pay for it anymore. We give you some cap relief, and you give us some cash relief"
"That works, we could use another center in the AHL and our owner is happy to pay his salary"

I mean.. right?

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

yes i conceed. i apologize for having the audacity to have doubts. i now see the light. every move the canes make is 4d brilliance and their is no possibility they outsmarted themselves competitively trying to please their penny pinching owner to shed a meaningless buried contract for a player who was providing back up depth. they have the exact amount of perfect ahl depth and they will suffer no unexpected injuries or adversity on their inevitable march to the cup. they will never miss the $400k in cap space at the tdl as they have already checked with gms to determine what assets they might covet who may be available and they have all answered truthfully including their bottom line prices. there was never even a possibility a team would have taken bear on waivers anyway because the canes canvassed everyone and they all gave direct truthful answers and nobody could afford him anyway using ltir even though the team that acquired him used ltir.

i recall when canes fans were fun. now you guys are coming up fast on leaf fans for bloody minded obnoxious my shit never stinks self confidence. have a nice day and bless all your hearts.

Man, you’re really something.