Value of Ryan Johansen

[kegstandbyme]

Before making any sort of proposal, I want to see how the fans who watch him regularly value him.

Click to read more...

 

[PredsV82]

At this point I'm sure you'll get a bunch of "bag of used pucks" type answers. Most of us fans are pretty disgusted with him.

That said, in the real world, we would only be trading Joey if Poile commits to a rebuild and I just dont think that happens. I think Poile is gonna take at least one full year with Hynes at the helm with Joey and Duchene as our 1C and 2C. So if you want a proposal that would get Joey in the real world you'll either have to massively overpay or include a passable 1/2C replacement. If there is an older 1C with only a couple years left on their deal but who can still play I could see Poile wanting to move Joey's contract.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I think we finished the regular season at "bag of pucks", but then that stupid play-in series went and messed things up. That is the perpetual trap with Johansen, though. If only he could play like that all the time... if... if... if...

But yeah, I don't see them moving him yet. JoFA looked like a legit #1 line there. Sigh - for 4 games against a crappy opponent, I know.

I guess if we can't find a taker for Turris, though, and we could find a taker for Johansen at a good price... like a solid RD we could pair with Josi, say... it would be somewhat tempting to take it and run. The we just run Duchene-Turris as our centers and probably don't lose too much up front.

 

[Soundgarden]

I think we have to ask if Johansen looked like shit this year because he gave up and doesn't care, or more likely, that Arvidsson's knee injury put a damper on the line. In reality it's probably a bit of both, but I wouldn't move him before Turris, unless we got someone similar back or we were blowing it up.

Getting rid of Granlund, Smith and hopefully Turris and SHOULD go a long way, but if it doesn't I wouldn't be opposed to a complete rebuild.

 

[Armourboy]

Unless we go full rebuild Joey isnt going anywhere. Despite what we think of him we have no way to replace him right now so you would just be shipping him out to ship him out.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Unless we go full rebuild Joey isnt going anywhere. Despite what we think of him we have no way to replace him right now so you would just be shipping him out to ship him out.

Except we kind of do have a way to replace him. The Joey we saw this past regular season... give Turris his icetime and linemates, and bam, we've replaced him. Turris probably would have outscored him, actually. He wouldn't have brought some of the other occasional physical attributes. But he can replace the downside of Joey easily enough. It's just that occasional tantalizing upside that he can't replace...

 

[Armourboy]

Except we kind of do have a way to replace him. The Joey we saw this past regular season... give Turris his icetime and linemates, and bam, we've replaced him. Turris probably would have outscored him, actually. He wouldn't have brought some of the other occasional physical attributes. But he can replace the downside of Joey easily enough. It's just that occasional tantalizing upside that he can't replace...

If he could replace him Poile would be trying to move Joey and not Turris and save 2 million in cap hit.

There is more to playing hockey than points, I think we tend to forget that around here.

 

[Byrddog]

This year just only looking at centers league wide he was 66th in the league, last year his 64 points placed him at 35 the year prior his 54 points put him 40th. In his full 4 full seasons here he has 215 points that places him 36th among forwards in the league in that 4 year span. This represents a 53 point average per year that he has been here. Now we can fool ourselves all we want but those are not 1C numbers in this league on a top team.

Johansen had issues before he got here and he still has issues. Motivational issues being the most glaring he has the skills to be much much more but he has been a drag on both Forsberg and Arvy both those guys should be close to a point a game.

If Poile can find Johansen a home it would be better for this team.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

If he could replace him Poile would be trying to move Joey and not Turris and save 2 million in cap hit.

There is more to playing hockey than points, I think we tend to forget that around here.

That's what I said. But it's always a tradeoff. If you can get a significantly better return trading one than the other, then you open up the potential to addresss the "more than points" side of the equation in other ways. Turris can replace Johansen's points, or near enough, of that I'm confident. And then with $8M in cap space freed up we can sign two good defensemen, or one Pietrangelo, etc. (At least we can try to). Or you get a good D back in the trade for Johansen. Whichever. So you get a little softer at 1 position in the lineup, but potentially make your team better overall. Any options that make the team better need to be considered. There are ways that Turris replacing Johansen can result in the team getting better, even if the 1-to-1 comparison between the two is slightly uneven. Poile should be trying to move BOTH of them so that if he does get any interest in both he can do the tradeoff analysis.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

This year just only looking at centers league wide he was 66th in the league, last year his 64 points placed him at 35 the year prior his 54 points put him 40th. In his full 4 full seasons here he has 215 points that places him 36th among forwards in the league in that 4 year span. This represents a 53 point average per year that he has been here. Now we can fool ourselves all we want but those are not 1C numbers in this league on a top team.

Johansen had issues before he got here and he still has issues. Motivational issues being the most glaring he has the skills to be much much more but he has been a drag on both Forsberg and Arvy both those guys should be close to a point a game.

If Poile can find Johansen a home it would be better for this team.

It's funny, I read that and the first paragraph actually made Johansen sound really good to me. And then the conclusion didn't seem to fit!

 

[Kat Predator]

It's funny, I read that and the first paragraph actually made Johansen sound really good to me. And then the conclusion didn't seem to fit!

The entire lineup struggled to produce this year, so laying that all on Johansen is a stretch.

The experiment that Lavi started the season with simply failed. Breaking up the JOFA line and hoping Jarnkrok would emerge as the replacement power forward and sniper on the 1st line just didn't yield consistent results after early October. Then injuries. In the end, Hynes reassembled JOFA, which was about the only thing working in the Arizona series, and the second line then became the expensive odd parts bag line with three playmakers and no one to finish and score.

 

[Legionnaire11]

It's funny, I read that and the first paragraph actually made Johansen sound really good to me. And then the conclusion didn't seem to fit!

It's also worded wrong. It says 36th among forwards, but he's 62nd among forwards, I assume Byrd meant 36th among centers but it's hard to break down who was a center or not with players shifting all the time. Still first line numbers, but in the bottom 3rd and that doesn't account for better players within their first three seasons like a Pettersson/Svechnikov or better players who missed time to injury, though I contend that staying healthy is a valuable factor (a skill? maybe).

In the last 4 seasons, forwards with 100+ games played, Johansen is 85th in points per game. Forsberg is 52nd, Arvidsson is 77th. Johansen played about 35 more games than each of them over that span, or 9 per season.

Idk, he's obviously a really good player. I think we all see that his motor isn't on 100 all the time and if it was it looks like he could be a perennial all-star in the 20+60 range with solid two-way play. His current contribution doesn't completely match his salary, but his contract isn't hindering the Preds either so it's really a non-issue at the moment and I think because of that, it's not a cap dump, so to trade Johansen would take a package that doesn't make sense for the other team. If his play regresses and we run into cap trouble in the next couple of seasons, then maybe we could look at trades for less value to shed the contract, but that's a conversation for down the road.

 

[Legionnaire11]

and the second line then became the expensive odd parts bag line with three playmakers and no one to finish and score.

And that's one of the things that makes judging Duchene and Turris so difficult, given proper wingers (not necessarily great players, but ones with complimentary skill) I think both would produce at a better rate. When all three were healthy, paired together and working hard, Fiala-Turris-Smith was scoring at a fine rate. Same reason that Grimaldi-Bonino-Smith was working this season, not that they are exceptionally skilled, but their skills complimented one another and that chemistry allowed them to succeed when they put in the effort.

Granlund really doesn't work on the wing because of this, and for whatever reason hasn't worked out at center. Obviously skilled player, but it's hard to slot in a playmaking winger. He'd work better with a Stamkos type center.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

One of the most overpaid centers in the league, now only justified by inexplicably continuing to put up numbers in the post-season. If only...

 

[Armourboy]

One of the most overpaid centers in the league, now only justified by inexplicably continuing to put up numbers in the post-season. If only...

Maybe so, but he's what we've got for now. A team with Duchene and Turris as our centers is just going to get pushed around. At least Joey can lean on people when he decides he wants to.

Joey's issue is want too, and it always amazes me how a guy with that much drive initially just loses it.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Maybe so, but he's what we've got for now. A team with Duchene and Turris as our centers is just going to get pushed around. At least Joey can lean on people when he decides he wants to.

Joey's issue is want too, and it always amazes me how a guy with that much drive initially just loses it.

As a player who was always of the "talented, but not talented enough to not work my ass off" variety, I hear you. Far cry from the types of players this org used to be known for.

 

[weeze]

This year just only looking at centers league wide he was 66th in the league, last year his 64 points placed him at 35 the year prior his 54 points put him 40th. In his full 4 full seasons here he has 215 points that places him 36th among forwards in the league in that 4 year span. This represents a 53 point average per year that he has been here. Now we can fool ourselves all we want but those are not 1C numbers in this league on a top team.

Johansen had issues before he got here and he still has issues. Motivational issues being the most glaring he has the skills to be much much more but he has been a drag on both Forsberg and Arvy both those guys should be close to a point a game.

If Poile can find Johansen a home it would be better for this team.

You say this about Joey, what do you say about Duchene? Does he move up to #1 with 42 pts this yr. Turris was worse. Who would be our #1C? We aren't getting McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, Mathews or anyone like this! So would it be? Malkin may be on the block but he is 34 yo. or Kopitar but he is 33 yo. We aren't getting any new young 1C for Joey or Duchene or Turris or any combination of. With Granlund, Smith and hopefully Turris leaving that should free up some $$ to fill a few spots with some needed UFA's along with some of our own younguns, that should give the preds a good team this next year.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

You say this about Joey, what do you say about Duchene? Does he move up to #1 with 42 pts this yr. Turris was worse. Who would be our #1C? We aren't getting McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, Mathews or anyone like this! So would it be? Malkin may be on the block but he is 34 yo. or Kopitar but he is 33 yo. We aren't getting any new young 1C for Joey or Duchene or Turris or any combination of. With Granlund, Smith and hopefully Turris leaving that should free up some $$ to fill a few spots with some needed UFA's along with some of our own younguns, that should give the preds a good team this next year.

And yet Granlund, Smith, and Turris would normally account for about 55 goals and 140 points a season. Even if they weren't or haven't lived up to that the past season or two, that's not production/talent that's going to be simple to replace. It also probably, if via UFA, isn't going to come much less expensive than they were.

 

[Armourboy]

And yet Granlund, Smith, and Turris would normally account for about 55 goals and 140 points a season. Even if they weren't or haven't lived up to that the past season or two, that's not production/talent that's going to be simple to replace. It also probably, if via UFA, isn't going to come much less expensive than they were.

Agreed but I think part of the problem is that the pieces just didn't fit. Too many pass first guys, and too many soft guys.

In their defense though, Lavi offered the forwards little consistency. The only ones that got any at all was the Bonino line. Heck he even basically got pressured into playing Turris.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Agreed but I think part of the problem is that the pieces just didn't fit. Too many pass first guys, and too many soft guys.

In their defense though, Lavi offered the forwards little consistency. The only ones that got any at all was the Bonino line. Heck he even basically got pressured into playing Turris.

Yeah, I agree. It's why I'm kind of wary to see the roster turnover that's probably about to happen. I know that it's needed and that there are definitely some structural/chemistry issues, but we're about to lose two talented, productive players for nothing (who will undoubtedly bounce back into better form) and giveaway/buyout a 3rd. It's slightly appalling that the feeling on the boards seems to be trending toward "good riddance" cause it's actually rather a bit tragic.

 

[weeze]

And yet Granlund, Smith, and Turris would normally account for about 55 goals and 140 points a season. Even if they weren't or haven't lived up to that the past season or two, that's not production/talent that's going to be simple to replace. It also probably, if via UFA, isn't going to come much less expensive than they were.

I guess we could do away with Joey and Duchene and play Granlund, Smith and Turris. Heck We don't need no Centers! Granlund is NOT going to be the 70pt guy he was in MN. IDK if he doen't like it here or what the issue is but he just does not click with this group. Smith has been consistent but snakebit since his famous miss many moons ago. Turris is Turris. He will score some but will not be a top end #1C we need. Some pieces gotta go and I don't see it being Joey and Duchene. I think they make a really good 1-2 punch. Not league wide top 5 but real good. Only time will tell.

 

[Armourboy]

Yeah, I agree. It's why I'm kind of wary to see the roster turnover that's probably about to happen. I know that it's needed and that there are definitely some structural/chemistry issues, but we're about to lose two talented, productive players for nothing (who will undoubtedly bounce back into better form) and giveaway/buyout a 3rd. It's slightly appalling that the feeling on the boards seems to be trending toward "good riddance" cause it's actually rather a bit tragic.

I get you but I see it more as the pain incurred for past mistakes.

Turris and Duchene were hired to play the same spot, that was a mistake and one needs to go. Fiala should have never been traded for Granlund, not because I like Fiala, but because of the contract control. It just wasn't a smart move.

Frankly if it's me I just rip the bandaid off and go for it. I'd slate Trenin and Tolvanen with Duchene and then someone like Pitlick with Bonino. If someone from the CHL just comes in and blows your mind then move Trenin down ship off Watson/Jarnkrok and stick Pitlick in there.

What I wouldn't do is resign Smith.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

It's too bad in hindsight that we couldn't have been in a "Seller" mode at the Trade Deadline. Just before the Covid bomb dropped. But it's like so many things that are stacked up against us now... AT THE TIME... that's our companion preface to IF ONLY...

At least recouping something for Smith and Granlund would have helped cushion the blow. It's not quite so tragic to just decide to let Smith go, however. He's a decent player, I attach no "good riddance" to letting him walk. But the time has come for bigger changes, and that just happens to coincide with his contract expiring, so that's just how it goes. Granlund and Turris... very few in the hockey world criticized those trades when they were made. Obviously if we had Fiala and Girard now, however... well.

Ultimately I think it all just adds up to the justification for this being Poile's Last Stand. I would have taken all those trades he made too. I guess you never want to leave on a bad note, but if he doesn't have any Hail Mary up his sleeve, then I think he should just resign next summer. He tried, I give him that. Sometimes you just have to admit failure. If you're a 70-year old millionaire, well, it's a pretty soft landing to just retire and enjoy the rest of the string.

I probably would still try for the Hail Mary if I was him, however. I mean, why not. Let the next guy put the Killer-T's (Tolvanen,Trenin,Tomasino) into the lineup all at once and really go hardcore on the rebuild. If this is your Hail Mary, go down shooting. That might not be the best for our franchise, of course. But that's what I'd do in Poile's shoes.

 

[Armourboy]

It's too bad in hindsight that we couldn't have been in a "Seller" mode at the Trade Deadline. Just before the Covid bomb dropped. But it's like so many things that are stacked up against us now... AT THE TIME... that's our companion preface to IF ONLY...

At least recouping something for Smith and Granlund would have helped cushion the blow. It's not quite so tragic to just decide to let Smith go, however. He's a decent player, I attach no "good riddance" to letting him walk. But the time has come for bigger changes, and that just happens to coincide with his contract expiring, so that's just how it goes. Granlund and Turris... very few in the hockey world criticized those trades when they were made. Obviously if we had Fiala and Girard now, however... well.

Ultimately I think it all just adds up to the justification for this being Poile's Last Stand. I would have taken all those trades he made too. I guess you never want to leave on a bad note, but if he doesn't have any Hail Mary up his sleeve, then I think he should just resign next summer. He tried, I give him that. Sometimes you just have to admit failure. If you're a 70-year old millionaire, well, it's a pretty soft landing to just retire and enjoy the rest of the string.

I probably would still try for the Hail Mary if I was him, however. I mean, why not. Let the next guy put the Killer-T's (Tolvanen,Trenin,Tomasino) into the lineup all at once and really go hardcore on the rebuild. If this is your Hail Mary, go down shooting. That might not be the best for our franchise, of course. But that's what I'd do in Poile's shoes.

I think trading for Granlund, signing Duchene and moving Subban was his hail marry. I think now he's hoping a retool of young guys will reignite some things. If not, well it was a good run.

 

[Scoresberg]

Joey is a lot more valuable to us than to any other team, which is why we're not trading him. He is what is at this point of his career, an underwhelming regular season producer, although as the 1C, we've won the President's Trophy, the Western Conference and the Central Division twice. We've also gone to the Finals and had he been healthy there would be one more banner hanging from the rafters at the Bridge. We've won 5 playoff series in the last 5 years and once again this year, he was one of the few who dared to show up when the games started to matter something. You just can't trade him given the situation we're in.

I think he's overpaid a bit but still a valuable piece to our puzzle. He's big body center, something we don't really have. I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt from this year's regular season as he's been consistent (although again a bit underwhelming considering what he could've been) in other seasons.

If he struggles next year as well then I think you have to consider trading him, although I can't see that given JOFA is put back together. Nonetheless, if Poile can make this a playoff team, at least we'll still have the 1C who can matchup well against the other 1C's in this league.

People just need to realize that at least a couple years going forward, our wagon is hitched to Joey-Duchene 1-2 punch down the middle.