Value of our Players

[leaffaninvancouver]

First we are not trading our 2nd best center. Brown no way, we are too high on him, he just gets overshadowed (in fans minds) listen to Babcock I think he prefers Brown over Marner in some cases. Why do we have to trade one of our best players for top 2 D, when we are probably signing Igor Og, we have Timmy and Dermott, Rosen. Plus if the Leafs D play like they did last year no need to give that kind of player up. JVR I dont care has high value, the only issue is contract but a deal can hinge on him signing, same for Bozak. Oh well Lou is smart so I am not worried.

I can't imagine why fans of another team don't want the scraps you deem worthy for a top 2 d.. Kadri is the type of player you need to offer for a number 2 d, a package built around Brown can get you a top 4 D on a RFA.

Bozak and JVR will get you picks or another UFA most likely. A team that needs a UFA like JVR/Bozak is usually in a push for the playoffs, so they aren't looking to send a quality player that they need.

 

[Polaris1010]

Bozak, Dermott, 2nd rounder

For

Shea Theodore--or
Brady Skjei

That's not a serious trade proposal.

 

[jrgtml67]

Can someone break down the Ottawa Nash Colorado deal here. Like if what was given to Colorado gets you a Duchene, and Nashville gets Turris, it shows the value of picks and prospects. Colorado gets a 1st,2nd,3rd 2 prospects, a backup goalie (in AHL right now), and 1 bottom D. One can argue right now Colorado lost this deal, they did short term for sure, it depends on the prospects and picks if they turn into big time players, if not they lost it no question. Again no reason to pay out the nose for a stud D, a top 4 mid age RHD will do just fine. Plus may not even need that, Igor is pretty much a lock to sign, highly touted and endorsed by Kucherov, then we still have Timothy, Dermott and so forth.

 

[jrgtml67]

Ya its an over payment for the leafs easily. Colorado didnt even get that quality (remains to be seen on who they draft), for Duchene. They got a spare goalie, 3 picks which are never guaranteed, an ok defenseman and a prospect whom no one has heard of.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Ya its an over payment for the leafs easily. Colorado didnt even get that quality (remains to be seen on who they draft), for Duchene. They got a spare goalie, 3 picks which are never guaranteed, an ok defenseman and a prospect whom no one has heard of.

Why does Vegas, a rebuilding team want to trade a cost controlled RFA for a UFA, a prospect and likely mid to low second round pick?

 

[White Shadow]

Can someone break down the Ottawa Nash Colorado deal here. Like if what was given to Colorado gets you a Duchene, and Nashville gets Turris, it shows the value of picks and prospects. Colorado gets a 1st,2nd,3rd 2 prospects, a backup goalie (in AHL right now), and 1 bottom D. One can argue right now Colorado lost this deal, they did short term for sure, it depends on the prospects and picks if they turn into big time players, if not they lost it no question. Again no reason to pay out the nose for a stud D, a top 4 mid age RHD will do just fine. Plus may not even need that, Igor is pretty much a lock to sign, highly touted and endorsed by Kucherov, then we still have Timothy, Dermott and so forth.

It's been widely reported Sakic got a huge haul in return for Duchene. 7 pieces!!!

It also seems to be one of those rare trades where all parties gained.

 

[Polaris1010]

The Maple Leafs will trade Morgan Rielly ...

for a 25 goal winger on expiring contract since he's 32, and a minor league defenseman who might have some potential, and a 2nd round draft pic.

No thanks. No, no, no Thanks.

 

[jrgtml67]

Huge in pieces, but also even Dreger said, remains to be seen who won it because of the picks and prospects, he said ask him again in 3 years. If Sakic does not hit on those picks or prospects they lose this deal. To me Sakic had to hit a home run, right now looks like a ground rule double.

 

[Polaris1010]

Huge in pieces, but also even Dreger said, remains to be seen who won it because of the picks and prospects, he said ask him again in 3 years. If Sakic does not hit on those picks or prospects they lose this deal. To me Sakic had to hit a home run, right now looks like a ground rule double.

Sakic got hosed.

Every team gets draft picks for free every year. An extra second round draft pick, how does that turn the organization around?

More to the point, didn't Boston trade a few players in the past couple years and had three 1st round draft picks one year? Do we think they have a better team than the Leafs, now or in the next few years? No.

Looks like he Sakic had one order, which was dump salary. That makes sense because in a rebuild, why pay anybody.

 

[jrgtml67]

I agree right now unless those picks hit for a top 2 player forward or D he loses this deal no doubt. He got quantity but no quality as yet.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I think when you are making proposals, you should ask yourself why the other team (i.e. Las Vegas) would be trading the given asset (i.e. Theodore) you are attempting to acquire. Then, ask yourself what the best asset is in the deal is (i.e. in the case of your first proposal, Theodore).

Regarding JVR, he gets you Jack Johnson. He's a pending free agent winger who is prone to lazy lapses, and is predominantly a one-way player. Adding a little sweetner (i.e. a 2nd round pick) bumps it up to Savard.

 

[drewjenks]

It's true, but that really depends on what you believe.

If it was old school, then someone like Bozak, may not even be in the league. New school would say Bozak is worth a 2nd round draft choice because of comparable stats.

Notice how the Leafs have too many players, and never get rid of anybody this year.

There is a lot of dissension in the management ranks of MLSE I suspect.

Playing office politics and micro-managing the team is what seems to be going on right now.

I don't see how people could say Bozak won't be worth a 2nd round pick to SOMEONE near the deadline. There are always playoff teams with injuries & some will have injuries at center.

The Leafs traded a 2nd for pick for Brian Boyle to play 4th line center last year.

 

[White Shadow]

Huge in pieces, but also even Dreger said, remains to be seen who won it because of the picks and prospects, he said ask him again in 3 years. If Sakic does not hit on those picks or prospects they lose this deal. To me Sakic had to hit a home run, right now looks like a ground rule double.

Not 1, but 2 blue chip forward prospects in Bowers and Kamenev.
Girard, who may end up being a top 2 Dman
Backup goalie
1st and 2nd rounders in a deep 2018 draft
3rd round in 2019

Obviously when you trade for picks and prospects, you have to wait on the development. But when you have 7 pieces, you really increase your chances of hitting...maybe even on 3 or 4 of them.

 

[Polaris1010]

I don't see how people could say Bozak won't be worth a 2nd round pick to SOMEONE near the deadline. There are always playoff teams with injuries & some will have injuries at center.

The Leafs traded a 2nd for pick for Brian Boyle to play 4th line center last year.

Sure, but, that's hypothetical.

If he's hurt, they got nothing.

Suppose they want to trade Bozak at the deadline, but instead, he's injured. The shoe is on the other foot, and Leafs are now buyers.

 

[Buds17]

Huge in pieces, but also even Dreger said, remains to be seen who won it because of the picks and prospects, he said ask him again in 3 years. If Sakic does not hit on those picks or prospects they lose this deal. To me Sakic had to hit a home run, right now looks like a ground rule double.

Sakic did well in having two teams involved in trade talks (and the quantity that comes with that). I'd think fewer assets, but one closer to being a sure thing would've obviously been preferred, but I guess that offer just wasn't there and Ottawa/Nashville did well to retain those prospects/players. Nashville was able to bolster a current contender, Ottawa is hoping for a longer-term piece (chances of Duchene re-upping compared to Turris) and Colorado hopes to add multiple players for a player who wasn't going to be in their plans.

 

[Polaris1010]

I don't see how people could say Bozak won't be worth a 2nd round pick to SOMEONE near the deadline. There are always playoff teams with injuries & some will have injuries at center.

The Leafs traded a 2nd for pick for Brian Boyle to play 4th line center last year.

Another way of making a counter-argument to that, is that the market is not uniform.

Hockey players, are not commodities. The price of gold, one ounce tends to be the same price everywhere.

The price of a NHL center, that's debatable among the market participants, this case 30 NHL old white guys making the trade decisions.

For example, Lou Lamoreillo was willing to pay a 2nd for a 34 year old rental, but not necessarily if his name was NOT Brian Boyle.

 

[Polaris1010]

Sakic did well to get two teams involved (and the quantity that comes with that).

Sakic saved his own ass in that kind of trade.

He did what he was told to do, dump salary, and get prospects in return.

If the prospects don't pan out, not his fault, he remains GM.

Brian Burke, if he took that attitude, (and kept his mouth shut), he'll still be GM you know where!

 

[drewjenks]

No it's not enough, why does Edmonton want picks, a prospect who can't crack the Leafs defense and a UFA? Leaf players have value but you're not going to offer scraps and get gold, even if those scraps combined are worth more.

I'm going to say that it's not enough with all else being equal - but it is enough right now, considering the cap situation that Edmonton has themselves in.

1. Edmonton will have to get rid of a at least a couple good players next year to make everyone fit under the cap. There gonna have about $12,000,000 to sign like 8 guys, with Nurse & Maroon included.
2. This means they are in a win now mode this year & will be looking for NHL players on ELC's next summer.

- JVR fits the win now mode & they need scoring wingers.
- Dermott fits the NHL player with potential on an ELC need (for 2 more years after this one)
- I think they take the deal if a 1st is included but I'm skeptical if it's a 2nd.

They will likely keep Nurse next summer, but they will have to let someone go to keep him.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Duchene is signed for another year, Turris was an RFA. Your package isn't attractive, Bozak is a UFA, Dermott is a prospect and a potentially late second aren't that valuable.

Yeah people under value Leaf players but you're not offering a lot of value here.

Actually Turris was going to be UFA
unsigned UFA's are not going to bring nearly as much.

 

[BlueBaron]

Damn I cant delete the players that I should not have included. But pretty much many of the trade talk surrounds Bozak and JVR in a deal, with a prospect and a pick depending. Now on the trade boards I am saying apparently those 2 are worth nothing even if you were to offer this;

Bozak, Dermott, 2nd rounder

For

Shea Theodore--or
Brady Skjei

I mentioned on that trade thread that, that is a major overpayment for the leafs but apparently not, and apparently that does not even get us close.

You're targeting an asset that is almost untouchable to them. That value is fairly high but they will say Bozak is a rental, Dermott is garbage and Theodore is a future first pairing guy.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Actually Turris was going to be UFA
unsigned UFA's are not going to bring nearly as much.

You're right my bad, the signing was a big part of that trade though. If Turris doesn't sign that deal never happens.

 

[Paneerboy]

Put yourself in the shoes of the fans of the opposing team. Would you take such an offer? Would it make sense for your team in the short and long run?

 

[Golden_Jet]

You're right my bad, the signing was a big part of that trade though. If Turris doesn't sign that deal never happens.

Agree with this,

 

[drewjenks]

So I am curious what people here would say our players are valued at. It seems in the trade threads that unless it is one of our big 3 none of the others get us anything, even in a package with a high pick. So out side our big 3 who has the most value--greatest to least.

Note not sure if the poll makes sense, if not just have an order--and further if you would like put a comparison with someone of similar value

Example;

Rielly=player comparison

I am just really sick and tired of so many pretty much saying "oh that doesnt get you a top 4 D," even if adding a prospect and a high pick 1st or 2nd.

Apparently

Bozak, Dermott, 2nd is not with Brady Skjei for example, I feel that is almost over paying.

Here is one thing that bugs me so much about any type of trade discussion:

No one ever values contract terms as much as I do - solid underpaid players on long-term contracts are the absolute nuts. They are GOLD. I just needed to get that off my chest.

Kadri @ $4.5 million x 5 more years
Brown @ $2.1 million x 3 more years
Reilly @ $5.0 million x 5 more years
Zaitsev @ $4.5 million x 7 more years

They should not be traded any time soon. And the Leafs need to be targeting guys like:

Pesce @ $4.025 million x 7 more years
Slavin @ $5.3 million x 8 more years
Ekholm @ $3.75 million x 5 more years
Lindholm @ $5.2 million x 5 more years
S.Jones @ $5.4 million x 5 more years

Not Ekman-Larsson, who we would have to re-sign for like $8,000,000 in the same summer we have to sign Matthews, Marner & Kapanen.

When you trade for good long-term contracts, you arn't just getting a player, your getting the option to go for Tavares instead of Bozak, or Doughty instead of Gardiner during free agency. You just have to pick the right players to over pay (Doughty will play 26 minutes a game & should help push Reilly's offense to another level. Tavare's is a perennial Selke nominee & will fix our 'defense' as much as matthews does while he's on the ice. Tavares should also bring Marner to another level, like Matthews is doing with Nylander).

In my opinion, the leafs should deal Gardiner now, mainly because it'll cost around $6,000,000 to re-sign him in 2 years. He's not worth that when they have Reilly, Zaitsev & Liljegren on the way. They can trade the returns + a couple other assets for a cheaper shut down guy like Pesce.

Reilly - Pesce ($9.0 million)
Hainsey - Zaitsev ($7.5 million)
Borgman - Liljegren ($1.8 million)
Carrick ($0.8 million)
------------------------
TOTAL = $19.1 million

Add $6 million for goalies theres still $53 million left over for offense.

 

[cupcrazyman]

so a 13th forward gets you a 2nd round pick ?