Raptors Discussion: v97 Raptor's 2023-2024 Season complete - 6th. worst team.

[Fonzieleaf]

With a final score of 133-85, the Timberwolves hand the Raptors their worst loss in franchise history.

 

[canucksfan]

Obviously, I am not watching many games but one disappointing aspect with guys getting long extended looks, there's not one guy that has stood out.

 

[The Nemesis]

The first tweets I saw about Malachi Flynn scoring 50 i assumed it was some sort of joke. Apparently not.

 

[A1LeafNation]

The first tweets I saw about Malachi Flynn scoring 50 i assumed it was some sort of joke. Apparently not.

Wish the Raptors could draft a guy like that...

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Masai, the genius living on the laurels of the 2019 championship (mainly a result of Durant not playing), has screwed up this team. This team is historically bad. Losing by 48 points, most in franchise history. First NBA team to lose by 40+ points in a 15 game stretch. Just 2 games from the longest losing streak in franchise history. He probably hired the wrong coach, didn't make the changes and start the rebuild last year, Poetl trade was terrible and a year too late, players he's brought in are below average, etc. Needless to say, I've watched intermittently since the injury to Barnes, but the G-leaguers being trotted out every night is an affront to the paying fans.

 

[Bjindaho]

Masai, the genius living on the laurels of the 2019 championship (mainly a result of Durant not playing), has screwed up this team. This team is historically bad. Losing by 48 points, most in franchise history. First NBA team to lose by 40+ points in a 15 game stretch. Just 2 games from the longest losing streak in franchise history. He probably hired the wrong coach, didn't make the changes and start the rebuild last year, Poetl trade was terrible and a year too late, players he's brought in are below average, etc. Needless to say, I've watched intermittently since the injury to Barnes, but the G-leaguers being trotted out every night is an affront to the paying fans.

You have no idea what you are talking about

 

[fancy lad]

The one thing i really question is whether or not Darko is best coach for this team next season.

obviously these games now don't matter. If anything they're losing on purpose.

However can Darko suddenly become a coach who will start demanding wins of this team next season?

 

[thewave]

The first tweets I saw about Malachi Flynn scoring 50 i assumed it was some sort of joke. Apparently not.

Haha it was his one and only night.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

You have no idea what you are talking about

What exactly do you object to? You don't think wrong decisions have been made or that the team has been mismanaged? Or are you suggesting that if Durant played and Klay Thompson didn't tear his ACL in game 6 that GS wouldn't have won? Perhaps you deny that this team right now is historically bad, breaking franchise and league records. Sure, they've had injuries, used 30 different players, but it's still management's job to put a competitive team on the floor. They're not refunding the paying public's money.

I think it's pretty clear it is you that has no idea about basketball. How about backing up what you say as opposed to saying someone "has no idea" what they're talking about.

 

[Bjindaho]

What exactly do you object to? You don't think wrong decisions have been made or that the team has been mismanaged? Or are you suggesting that if Durant played and Klay Thompson didn't tear his ACL in game 6 that GS wouldn't have won? Perhaps you deny that this team right now is historically bad, breaking franchise and league records. Sure, they've had injuries, used 30 different players, but it's still management's job to put a competitive team on the floor. They're not refunding the paying public's money.

I think it's pretty clear it is you that has no idea about basketball. How about backing up what you say as opposed to saying someone "has no idea" what they're talking about.

The team is losing because almost the entire NBA rotation is hurt.

Blaming that on Masai is BS.

Trading for Poetl was a mistake, but you are blaming the wrong guy (Webster is the GM). We'll see where the rebuild leads us, but the team was trending in the right direction before the crippling injuries hit.

 

[Suntouchable13]

What exactly do you object to? You don't think wrong decisions have been made or that the team has been mismanaged? Or are you suggesting that if Durant played and Klay Thompson didn't tear his ACL in game 6 that GS wouldn't have won? Perhaps you deny that this team right now is historically bad, breaking franchise and league records. Sure, they've had injuries, used 30 different players, but it's still management's job to put a competitive team on the floor. They're not refunding the paying public's money.

I think it's pretty clear it is you that has no idea about basketball. How about backing up what you say as opposed to saying someone "has no idea" what they're talking about.

He has made some brilliant moves that lead to that championship, I don’t care how you try to discredit the team/Masai. You want the league to take away the rings, and pull the banner down or something? And he also made some questionable moves lately, which also true. Maybe his time is up, not sure. I just wish Leafs and Jays get that “lucky” to win rings.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

He has made some brilliant moves that lead to that championship, I don’t care how you try to discredit the team/Masai. You want the league to take away the rings, and pull the banner down or something? And he also made some questionable moves lately, which also true. Maybe his time is up, not sure. I just wish Leafs and Jays get that “lucky” to win rings.

Luck plays a part in every championship. I agree with you though, his time may be up. He definitely made great moves in his early years. Loved picking up Gasol and Ibaka. He built his reputation on a ballsy trade for Leonard, and developing players like Siakam. But the last few years, he's been downright incompetent. Poor decisions leading to a club he was embarasssed to watch last season, to this year's abomination of a team. He was hailed as a genius, justifiably so, but his sheen has lost its lustre.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

The team is losing because almost the entire NBA rotation is hurt.

Blaming that on Masai is BS.

Trading for Poetl was a mistake, but you are blaming the wrong guy (Webster is the GM). We'll see where the rebuild leads us, but the team was trending in the right direction before the crippling injuries hit.

Webster does the grunt work, but make no mistake, Masai has final say on the trade.

There have been questionable trades and decisions on the direction of the team:

-Jakob Poeltl from San Antonio for Khem Birch, 2024 1st rd (top 6 protected), 2023 2nd rd and 2025 2nd rd pick.

-Jakob Poeltl signed 4yr-$78 million contract

-Thaddeus Young+Drew Eubanks from San Antonio for Goran Dragic+2022 1rd Draft Pick

-Goran Dragic+Precious Achiuwa for Kyle Lowry

-Otto Porter Jr signed 2 yr-$16 million contract

-Not trading Siakam and Vanvleet in 2022-2023

-Before Poetl trade, the team had no legitimate big on the team, electing to go with a long team instead.

-In a 3 point shooting league, they had none that could shoot.

-They haven't had a good bench in years.


I could go on, but you see why I've soured on Masai/Webster. I used to be high on Masai, but he seems to have lost his way. Championship management teams are let go at times. It may be time for him to go.

Having said that, I do like the Quickley and Barrett acquistions. Let's see how he does in this offseason.

 

[saska sault]

I get all the problems with the team and management and everything. This team will look wildly different next year. I believe Trent Jr is the longest tenured Raptor? Or Barnes? Either way, they are playing a G league team with some guys sprinkled in. I think they actually are taking steps in the right direction finally after a few years in purgatory. Darko will get a chance next year to prove if he deserves to stick around... this year can't be fully judged because of the roster turn over and make up.

The crazy thing like someone else mentioned.. I was in Toronto 2 weeks ago and the price to see this team in the lower bowl? Astonishing. 500-700$ for a lottery team is wild.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Webster does the grunt work, but make no mistake, Masai has final say on the trade.

There have been questionable trades and decisions on the direction of the team:

-Jakob Poeltl from San Antonio for Khem Birch, 2024 1st rd (top 6 protected), 2023 2nd rd and 2025 2nd rd pick.

-Jakob Poeltl signed 4yr-$78 million contract

-Thaddeus Young+Drew Eubanks from San Antonio for Goran Dragic+2022 1rd Draft Pick

-Goran Dragic+Precious Achiuwa for Kyle Lowry

-Otto Porter Jr signed 2 yr-$16 million contract

-Not trading Siakam and Vanvleet in 2022-2023

-Before Poetl trade, the team had no legitimate big on the team, electing to go with a long team instead.

-In a 3 point shooting league, they had none that could shoot.

-They haven't had a good bench in years.


I could go on, but you see why I've soured on Masai/Webster. I used to be high on Masai, but he seems to have lost his way. Championship management teams are let go at times. It may be time for him to go.

Having said that, I do like the Quickley and Barrett acquistions. Let's see how he does in this offseason.

Seems like a pretty comprehensive list, well done! I also like the Quickley and Barrett acquisitions and I would add the drafting of Barnes to the (short) list of good things, that was the best thing he's done in the last few years. Having said that, that's a lot of bad decisions there, yikes!

 

[DuklaNation]

If you don't have players that can create their own offense in the half court efficiently, your team will struggle. That's the Raptors team even when healthy.

 

[DuklaNation]

Obviously, I am not watching many games but one disappointing aspect with guys getting long extended looks, there's not one guy that has stood out.

You'd think they could get 1 guy for the 11th or 12th spot in next year's rotation but all these guys look like scrubs. It's the type of a player they go for, jack of all trades, master of none types. Doesn't inspire confidence in any rebuild. Management is a step behind other teams.

 

[Bjindaho]

Webster does the grunt work, but make no mistake, Masai has final say on the trade.

There have been questionable trades and decisions on the direction of the team:

-Jakob Poeltl from San Antonio for Khem Birch, 2024 1st rd (top 6 protected), 2023 2nd rd and 2025 2nd rd pick.

-Jakob Poeltl signed 4yr-$78 million contract

-Thaddeus Young+Drew Eubanks from San Antonio for Goran Dragic+2022 1rd Draft Pick

-Goran Dragic+Precious Achiuwa for Kyle Lowry

-Otto Porter Jr signed 2 yr-$16 million contract

-Not trading Siakam and Vanvleet in 2022-2023

-Before Poetl trade, the team had no legitimate big on the team, electing to go with a long team instead.

-In a 3 point shooting league, they had none that could shoot.

-They haven't had a good bench in years.


I could go on, but you see why I've soured on Masai/Webster. I used to be high on Masai, but he seems to have lost his way. Championship management teams are let go at times. It may be time for him to go.

Having said that, I do like the Quickley and Barrett acquistions. Let's see how he does in this offseason.

That Young trade had a 2nd rounder coming to the Raptors (they traded back 8 picks or so)

The Lowry deal was a sign and trade. It was not a basketball trade.

Porter was a good player, who it turned out was completely shot (management didn't know that at the time).

The lack of 3 point shooting came down to Nurse refusing to play any 3 point shooters who weren't defensive studs (aka no one the Raps could afford) and Nurse refused to develop anyone for the bench or play anyone enough to have a bench (Fun Fact: Philly is 3 places higher in TS than Toronto despite having shooters).

Nobody is saying that mistakes weren't made. The big one was opening cap for Giannis only to have him re-sign in Milwaukee. The issue is that we aren't seeing the full rebuild and management is at least trying to change what the team looks like.

 

[Bjindaho]

You'd think they could get 1 guy for the 11th or 12th spot in next year's rotation but all these guys look like scrubs. It's the type of a player they go for, jack of all trades, master of none types. Doesn't inspire confidence in any rebuild. Management is a step behind other teams.

In a perfect world (with a top 6 pick),

IQ
Barnes
Barrett
1st rounder
Poetl

1st rounder
Dick
Agbaji
Olynyk
Edey

Nwora
Freeman-Liberty

where GTJ and Brown are moved for picks or better pieces and where one could be moved for a replacement in the top group if the pick is sub 6.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

That Young trade had a 2nd rounder coming to the Raptors (they traded back 8 picks or so)

The Lowry deal was a sign and trade. It was not a basketball trade.

Porter was a good player, who it turned out was completely shot (management didn't know that at the time).

The lack of 3 point shooting came down to Nurse refusing to play any 3 point shooters who weren't defensive studs (aka no one the Raps could afford) and Nurse refused to develop anyone for the bench or play anyone enough to have a bench (Fun Fact: Philly is 3 places higher in TS than Toronto despite having shooters).

Nobody is saying that mistakes weren't made. The big one was opening cap for Giannis only to have him re-sign in Milwaukee. The issue is that we aren't seeing the full rebuild and management is at least trying to change what the team looks like.

You're right, a 2022 second rounder came in the Thad Young trade. Raps knew they were going to immediately waive Eubanks so probably insisted on it.

A sign and trade is not a regular trade but it is a trade where the player is signed to a contract before he is traded, so it is in fact a trade.

With Porter, he was a good player but management didn't do their due diligence. He had back problems the entire month of Jan. 2021 and Feb.2022, foot injury in Apr., Nov., and Dec. of 2021. He signed with us on July 6, 2022. Then he was out with a foot injury in Nov. and Dec. of 2023, and again in Feb. of 2024. So, you telling me management wasn't aware of foot problems prior to signing?

Who are these alleged 3 point shooters Nurse wouldn't use?

Nurse didn't want to use his bench because there was no one reliable he could use because he wanted to win.

I wish the only mistake made was opening cap space for Giannis. He made many errors, not the least being starting the rebuild too late.

 

[Bjindaho]

You're right, a 2022 second rounder came in the Thad Young trade. Raps knew they were going to immediately waive Eubanks so probably insisted on it.

A sign and trade is not a regular trade but it is a trade where the player is signed to a contract before he is traded, so it is in fact a trade.

With Porter, he was a good player but management didn't do their due diligence. He had back problems the entire month of Jan. 2021 and Feb.2022, foot injury in Apr., Nov., and Dec. of 2021. He signed with us on July 6, 2022. Then he was out with a foot injury in Nov. and Dec. of 2023, and again in Feb. of 2024. So, you telling me management wasn't aware of foot problems prior to signing?

Who are these alleged 3 point shooters Nurse wouldn't use?

Nurse didn't want to use his bench because there was no one reliable he could use because he wanted to win.

I wish the only mistake made was opening cap space for Giannis. He made many errors, not the least being starting the rebuild too late.

I'm sorry if I am not being clear. Giannis wasn't the only mistake; he was the biggest.

The 2nd biggest is that Nurse should have been fired pre-TDL last year (which would have prevented the Poetl trade and sped up the rebuild).

Losing Fred for nothing is 3, but Fred has his limitations.

Based on reports going around, we seem to have gotten approximately the same value for Siakam as we would have and we did better on OG. We'll see what happens with the picks.

The Raptors brought in many sharpshooter and they all got glued to the bench because they weren't good enough defensively (then struggled when they finally got to play because they had sat for weeks).

 

[CabanaBoy5]

I'm sorry if I am not being clear. Giannis wasn't the only mistake; he was the biggest.

The 2nd biggest is that Nurse should have been fired pre-TDL last year (which would have prevented the Poetl trade and sped up the rebuild).

Losing Fred for nothing is 3, but Fred has his limitations.

Based on reports going around, we seem to have gotten approximately the same value for Siakam as we would have and we did better on OG. We'll see what happens with the picks.

The Raptors brought in many sharpshooter and they all got glued to the bench because they weren't good enough defensively (then struggled when they finally got to play because they had sat for weeks).

Well, at least you're agreeing that Masai has made mistakes in the past few years, much more imo than he made since he was hired in 2013. That was the point of my original post.

Earlier he seemed to have a plan, an awareness of what was needed for the team, and accomplished great things. Lately, he has been indecisive vis a vis the direction of the team and as you mentioned the lack of judgment (eg. Nurse and the start of the rebuild). The pedestal that Masai had been put on by many people has started to crumble. Perhaps he'll redeem himself this offseason, but to me that sense of admiration I had for him has since been tarnished.

So, can we at least agree I have an idea of what I'm talking about, and I expressed an opinion that is backed by recent events, some of which even you agree to?

 

[Kurtz]

You're right, a 2022 second rounder came in the Thad Young trade. Raps knew they were going to immediately waive Eubanks so probably insisted on it.

A sign and trade is not a regular trade but it is a trade where the player is signed to a contract before he is traded, so it is in fact a trade.

With Porter, he was a good player but management didn't do their due diligence. He had back problems the entire month of Jan. 2021 and Feb.2022, foot injury in Apr., Nov., and Dec. of 2021. He signed with us on July 6, 2022. Then he was out with a foot injury in Nov. and Dec. of 2023, and again in Feb. of 2024. So, you telling me management wasn't aware of foot problems prior to signing?

Who are these alleged 3 point shooters Nurse wouldn't use?

Nurse didn't want to use his bench because there was no one reliable he could use because he wanted to win.

I wish the only mistake made was opening cap space for Giannis. He made many errors, not the least being starting the rebuild too late.

The real problem with the Porter signing was that what the team really needed was a centre, and Hartenstein was also a free agent and signed to roughly the same contract. Masai went all-in on vision 6'9 and it was a bit of a disaster, because as it turns out it's really nice to have a legit C and a few shooters. The issue was later compounded when he traded a top-6 protected for Poetl, a very similar player to Hartenstein. There's about a 50% chance that pick will fall to 7 this year and we'll lose it.

You're also right that if Nurse had a bench, he'd have used it. But even during the championship run our bench was only 2-deep (once OG went down).

 

[al secord]

Luck plays a part in every championship. I agree with you though, his time may be up. He definitely made great moves in his early years. Loved picking up Gasol and Ibaka. He built his reputation on a ballsy trade for Leonard, and developing players like Siakam. But the last few years, he's been downright incompetent. Poor decisions leading to a club he was embarasssed to watch last season, to this year's abomination of a team. He was hailed as a genius, justifiably so, but his sheen has lost its lustre.

You mentioned luck then proceeded to call a trade for the 3rd best player in the league at the time a "ballsy trade." Only an idiot would have turned that down. Pop already had his rings and wanted to move on from the sideshow.

 

[Bjindaho]

Well, at least you're agreeing that Masai has made mistakes in the past few years, much more imo than he made since he was hired in 2013. That was the point of my original post.

Earlier he seemed to have a plan, an awareness of what was needed for the team, and accomplished great things. Lately, he has been indecisive vis a vis the direction of the team and as you mentioned the lack of judgment (eg. Nurse and the start of the rebuild). The pedestal that Masai had been put on by many people has started to crumble. Perhaps he'll redeem himself this offseason, but to me that sense of admiration I had for him has since been tarnished.

So, can we at least agree I have an idea of what I'm talking about, and I expressed an opinion that is backed by recent events, some of which even you agree to?

I overreacted.

I agree that management's leash is a lot shorter than it has been, but I at least want to see what this team looks like after we hit free agency this year before condemning management give that the Raps have picks and space.

The Raps might honestly lose out, but that has nothing to do with Masai and everything to do with injuries.

If we give up 6, trade 17 for something stupid, then run it back, then we definitely need new management.