Raptors Discussion: v94 | Raptors land 4th pick in NBA draft lottery. Draft set for July 29

[GoonieFace]

He's a decently good player, but I don't see the stand-out appeal. He doesn't appear to have a stand-out skill other than being a good supplementary scorer averaging 15 points a game mostly on drives and a small amount of perimeter shooting. It gives me some of the same vibes I had about DeRozan in that he's a player caught out of time who would've been far more valuable in the mid-late 90s than in 2021. It's not that it doesn't have value, but it doesn't have crazy, "this guy is a cornerstone of your team" value. Not the way the game is mostly played now. The Raptors aren't a good enough shooting team to make a niche for that.

and I mention he's white because it makes him a bit of a novelty. Rightfully or not (mostly not) it attracts increased media attention and that generates additional fan attention. It's not a lot different than the bizarro hype for Jimmer Fredette a few years ago, or even (in a non-white example) Jeremy Lin. I'm not saying it should matter (I don't think it should) but it does in some circles seem to. Herro is clearly a better player than both of them, but the point was never about them being equitable from a talent standpoint. Rather it was an issue of whether the attention/hype outstripped that talent.

TBH I don’t really care that you mentioned he is white. More curious to see people’s reactions

 

[donghabs98]

I feel like people are also forgetting about the fact that sign and trades exist.

I think the issue right now is some people are viewing Lowry not moving through the lens of NHL deals. Trading in the NBA is quite different.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Great, now we probably get a play-in participation trophy to show for this year and Lowry walks for nothing to a real contender (maybe hope for a sign and trade). Change the slogan from We The North to We The Ninth (Seed).

You understand though, that trading Lowry for what's rumored to have actually been offered would not help this team in the future, at all?

Trading Lowry for Duncan Robinson and Kelly Olynyk isn't much different than just letting him walk.

 

[phillipmike]

Rob Perez live stream; Houston screwed the Raptors offers because both teams had them on the other line desperate to get rid of Oladipo for a lesser package than Lowry.

 

[The Nemesis]

So in a league run by star players, why nobody was offering anything worthwhile?

The teams that had need of Lowry didn't have what the Raptors wanted, or weren't willing to part with what the Raptors desired for any number of reasons (not wanting to pay a high price for a rental, the belief that sacrificing the players the Raptors want would hurt them more in the long run than the value they would gain from Lowry in the short run, not having the same perceived value on Lowry and/or the guys on the block on their team, getting into a game of chicken and not blinking until it's too late, coming to the conclusion that they'd rather acquire a less expensive player at a lower price even if he's less talented (aka George Hill).) Who knows. Making trades isn't video game logic where you just toss names on the board and hammer the proposal button until you find one that goes through, making tweaks and alterations until it's approved and deeming that cost acceptable. Real negotiation means each side is entirely self-interested and has in their mind several key benchmarks including a best-case deal, a desired compromise deal (maybe), and a point at which they walk away if they believe their needs aren't satisfied in a meaningful way.

That walk-away point is usually the one that trips out outside observers because they look at the negotiating game like is being done here: that the success/failure line is as much about "making a deal vs not" as "getting a good return vs not". There is value in deciding not to make a deal because the other side won't meet your needs.

Whatever value Masai applied to Lowry wasn't being met in the eyes of himself and the Raptors management team.

 

[Clark4Ever]

I trust Masai's instincts 100%. If the offers weren't good enough, it makes more sense to keep Lowry and either re-sign him or do a sign and trade in the off season with more potential suitors.

 

[sparxx87]

The teams that had need of Lowry didn't have what the Raptors wanted, or weren't willing to part with what the Raptors desired for any number of reasons (not wanting to pay a high price for a rental, the belief that sacrificing the players the Raptors want would hurt them more in the long run than the value they would gain from Lowry in the short run, not having the same perceived value on Lowry and/or the guys on the block on their team, getting into a game of chicken and not blinking until it's too late, coming to the conclusion that they'd rather acquire a less expensive player at a lower price even if he's less talented (aka George Hill).) Who knows. Making trades isn't video game logic where you just toss names on the board and hammer the proposal button until you find one that goes through, making tweaks and alterations until it's approved and deeming that cost acceptable. Real negotiation means each side is entirely self-interested and has in their mind several key benchmarks including a best-case deal, a desired compromise deal (maybe), and a point at which they walk away if they believe their needs aren't satisfied in a meaningful way.

That walk-away point is usually the one that trips out outside observers because they look at the negotiating game like is being done here: that the success/failure line is as much about "making a deal vs not" as "getting a good return vs not". There is value in deciding not to make a deal because the other side won't meet your needs.

Whatever value Masai applied to Lowry wasn't being met in the eyes of himself and the Raptors management team.

Also add that $30M is a lot of money for any contender to absorb. They’d need to match that money going out which likely involves 2-3 rotation pieces.

Anyone acquiring Lowry would need to give up much of their depth on top of good young player + pick, and that’s pretty hard to do at this point of the season.

 

[AllDay28]

Lowry is gone in the off-season when teams have flexibility and he’s making significantly less than he’s making now. It was a no brainer to keep him unless someone overpaid (ala Powell)

 

[djdev]

imagine the raps traded lowry to miami for roughly the same package that houston got for oladipo...no thanks!!!!!!
either a sign and trade or re-sign him, clearly what was being offered was a joke.

 

[donghabs98]

imagine the raps traded lowry to miami for roughly the same package that houston got for oladipo...no thanks!!!!!!
either a sign and trade or re-sign him, clearly what was being offered was a joke.

Id imagine the people who are complaining we didn't move Lowry would be unhappy with the deal.

 

[saska sault]

Clear the books, I was hoping for a young asset or pick for Lowry but no one wanted to pay the price. Lowry gets to mentor his last days in Toronto and at least attempt a playoff push. Toronto was unwilling to take on salary past this year, and with matching salaries the Raptors needed to take on roughly 25 millions minimum and ask for assets.. Was a difficult trade to make. Focus on playing time for the young guys, and leave as much salary cap space as we can to go big game fishing in free agency.

 

[donghabs98]

Good perspective

 

[The Nemesis]

Good perspective

But what if I want to be unreasonably angry that they couldn't just, like, get the package the media said was out there?

 

[djdev]

Id imagine the people who are complaining we didn't move Lowry would be unhappy with the deal.

100%

 

[Tripod]

Yeah I was hoping to see him dealt if the return involved a good young player. But it's clear that wasn't the case.

Just disappointed that the backup plan of not trading Kyle...also didn't involve adding a C the desperately need. If we had a legit starting C, at least you could get behind possibly going on a bit of a run and at least possibly making the playoffs.

And not sure any buyouts will want to join the Raps like Drummond, etc..

 

[phillipmike]

Would have preferred to trade Lowry for bounty but if the trade isnt there you cant force it. basically there are only few teams that can sign him to a $20M+ deal this off-season where it makes sense.

-Knicks
-Hornets
-Heat
-Thunder
-Spurs
-Bulls
-Cleveland
-Dallas
-Pelicans
-Toronto

Lowry isnt going to the Knicks, Thunder, Spurs, Bulls, Cleveland or the Pels. Hornets and Dallas dont need a PG.

So that leaves the Raps and Miami. Miami has 2 starters under contract, they could sign Lowry but they have to fill other holes. So that is a sign and trade opportunity again. Maybe Herro is available then.

So Lowry's best option is to stay. But if he wants to go to LA or Philly then we have to do a sign and trade and that likely involves more coming back in a trade than what they could have gotten today.

That said we are 4.5 GBs of the 4th seed.

Lowry/Flynn/Watson
FVV/Trent Jr./McCaw/Harris
OG/Stanley/Hood
Siakam/Bembry/Yuta
Baynes/Boucher

Get a player or 2 in the buyout market and you are in the 2nd round again and who knows what happens.

This offseason we can sign a free agent for $20M+ and re-sign Lowry and Trent Jr. to go with our 1st round pick.

Lowry/Flynn/Watson
FVV/Trent Jr./Harris
OG/
Siakam/Bembry/Yuta
Boucher

Derozan? Jrue? Oladipo? Aldridge? Green? Iggy? Reddick?

Some decent players to get you back in the mix. The East isnt that strong at all. If the Raps were in Toronto and didnt have COVID they would be a top 4 team in the east.

 

[The Nemesis]

Yeah I was hoping to see him dealt if the return involved a good young player. But it's clear that wasn't the case.

Just disappointed that the backup plan of not trading Kyle...also didn't involve adding a C the desperately need. If we had a legit starting C, at least you could get behind possibly going on a bit of a run and at least possibly making the playoffs.

And not sure any buyouts will want to join the Raps like Drummond, etc..

Drummond sucks. he's not moving the needle from where the team is now to being legitimate threats.

I don't think the plan was "blow it up now" vs "go for it now"

It's more like "blow it up now" vs "see if better opportunities present themselves in the off-season"

 

[LaPlante94]

Lowry is gone in the off-season when teams have flexibility and he’s making significantly less than he’s making now. It was a no brainer to keep him unless someone overpaid (ala Powell)

Is Rodney Hood and Trent Jr a good haul for Powell? Not really familiar with them

 

[stickty111]

Hayes just proved nobody should take him seriously

 

[Tripod]

Drummond sucks. he's not moving the needle from where the team is now to being legitimate threats.

I don't think the plan was "blow it up now" vs "go for it now"

It's more like "blow it up now" vs "see if better opportunities present themselves in the off-season"

I agree about the go for it vs rebuild

I just wish we added a C who is an upgrade on Baynes. It's a massive hole in the lineup...the starters +now Trent and Boucher are pretty good.

 

[phillipmike]

Hayes just proved nobody should take him seriously

What did he say now?

 

[The Nemesis]

I agree about the go for it vs rebuild

I just wish we added a C who is an upgrade on Baynes. It's a massive hole in the lineup...the starters +now Trent and Boucher are pretty good.

There simply aren't many good modern centers out there. And the ones that are out there are pricey and tied up with other teams.

 

[kb]

That's fair. And thank you for not just jumping on the "OMG he's being racist!" bit. I knew that mentioning the white kid thing was probably going to get taken the wrong way, but hoped that people might understand the point I was trying to make rather than presume it was something it wasn't.

I have to ask though, is he a playmaker? Just as a point of comparison, VanVleet isn't usually regarded as a particularly strong assists guy (it's certainly part of his game, but he is more of a scorer) and his rate assists totals are like double what Herro's are. and Herro's #s would put him 4th on Maimi roughly in line with Igoudala, who hasn't been considered a functional playmaker since his Philly days

Sorry, I don't get why people have to bring up that angle. Very lazy and tired old narrative. I didn't take your post that way at all, but there are so many just dying to pull out that card for feigned moral superiority.

No explanation needed to rational people. There are a lot of us who knew what you were saying.

Obviously the offers were not what management wanted, or they couldn't make the salaries work. It will be interesting to see how things unfold in the offseason.

 

[stickty111]

What did he say now?

Paraphrasing
He said he doesn't care if it's a 2027 pick, should have just traded Lowry.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Paraphrasing
He said he doesn't care if it's a 2027 pick, should have just traded Lowry.

I like Hayes, but that's a ridiculous take on the situation.