USHL / USNTDP vs. OHL/CHL - NCAA Eligibility

Discussion in 'Canadian Junior Hockey' started by OttawaDad1970, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. HockeyDad4Life Registered User

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    How does the USHL and USNTDP work that allows players to maintain their NCAA eligibility while the CHL (including the OHL) kills NCAA eligibility? Do USHL teams charge the players family a fee to play as well as billeting fees, etc.? If not, how do they get around the NCAA eligibility rules?
     
  2. Slats432 Registered User

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    The CHL pays players a weekly stipend when in the league killing the junior eligibility. The other organizations do not pay players.
     
  3. HockeyDad4Life Registered User

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    Thanks for that. I have to believe that weekly stipend is hardly worth burning eligibility for NCAA. The USHL pays players travel expenses, equipment costs, billeting costs, food costs, etc. I suppose parents still need to cover entertainment or spending money but it seems to me that's a small price to pay to keep all doors open for young players who don't really know where they will end up in the hockey world.
     
  4. Blue Liner Registered User

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    It's not just the stipend that CHL players get but it's also (and maybe even more so) that there are players in the league who have signed professional contracts, played in professional games, and been paid to do so.
     
  5. hky01 Registered User

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    If you think that the USHL kids aren't getting walking around money you're crazy...
     
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  6. Slats432 Registered User

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    I am not sure I agree with this. The NCAA eligibility is over the moment they sign their WHL Standard players contract. (Meaning they agree to be paid while playing) This happens to many 15 and 16 year olds long before professional hockey is an issue.
     
  7. Slats432 Registered User

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    It is a tough call for most parents. My son is listed by a WHL team. He still goes to AJHL camps (Which they endorsed him to do), but you have to consider all your options because the moment you commit to the WHL, other options are limited. For example if you sign a WHL deal and play one game, then get cut, you certainly could play in the other leagues but an NCAA scholarship is not one of those options. Obviously if you are good/fortunate enough to be listed or even invited to a WHL training camp, in Western Canada you for sure go to the camp. (Like we will this year. :) )
     
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  8. Blue Liner Registered User

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    I understand the eligibility rules with regard to players signing CHL contracts and playing in CHL games. There are layers beyond just that was my point.
     
  9. Inkling Same Old Hockey

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    Yeah, if it was simply the payment of the stipend that was the issue then you could see where players would forego the stipend and keep eligibility while p.aying in the CHL. It does obviously go much further than that.
     
  10. BigBuck Registered User

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    The NCAA considers the CHL a professional league because there are players with NHL contracts that play in the CHL....
     
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  11. HockeyDad4Life Registered User

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    My point is really it seems to make no sense and that NCAA is playing a game of sorts to try and shift the balance of power to the USHL / NTDP players when it comes to D1 eligibility. The distinction between OHL/CHL players being ineligible and USHL players remaining eligible seems far to arbitrary to say otherwise.
     
  12. Ward Cornell Registered User

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    and how can USHL NCAA players be drafted by the NHL and still play in the NCAA but NCAA players in football/basketball can't be drafted and play in the NCAA
     
  13. BigBuck Registered User

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    Drafted baseball players can still play NCAA too....
     
  14. KKWG11 Registered User

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    The hockey players are drafted after their 17 year old season meaning they are just getting out of highschool (2000 birth year this year) they're drafted but havent signed an entry level contract allowing them to play ncaa. The team who drafted them holds onto the player's rights until they're done their senior year then if they dont sign they become a free agent.

    Nba draft you have to be 19 years old making you play at least one year of ncaa before being drafted.. They dont draft out of highschool anymore creating a one and done year of college

    Nfl to be eligible for the draft, players must have been out of high school for at least 3 years and must have used up their college eligibility before the start of the next college football season.
     
  15. Capitals03 Registered User

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    The CHL has made a few changes in the past few years. If you sign with the CHL and you are CDN or USA. The player can get 15k towards college after signing.
    Then he plays 1 Ex game another 15k. If he were to play a 2nd ex game in his 2nd year another 15k. What this means is 2 ex games and you can get 45k towards school. The school can be in the USA as well and they convert to USA Dollars.

    Each Div 1 school has created different avenues towards grants or funding. They also can dump you just as any CHL team. Grades, off ice issues, coaching change. Each path is different. You can look at it as a bird in the hand.
    I have seen many Cdn players who go to NCAA schools only to be "Let go" . Then you get zip.

    The NCAA-USHL-NAHL path is longer and might create options. The CHL also opens up a few doors in other leagues in other countries.
     
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  16. sharknado Registered User

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    NCAA is a bit hypocritical. They say that players cannot get anything for free, such as the 48 hour rule, you need to pay your way to practice for a CHL team if you intend to practice or tryout for more than 2 days. Meanwhile, USHL players are playing, eating, and living for free for the entire season and are given equipment for free.

    CHL kids playing in an exhibition game as a tryout forfeit their NCAA eligibility but you have Donato playing for the Bruins last year while playing in the NCAA.

    If CIS ever started to market themselves properly and start televising some of their games, it would make a dent in the NCAA talent pool with less Canadians going over there. CIS is really good hockey if you have a chance to go watch a game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
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  17. Seattle Totems Registered User

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    The CHL seems to have it all figured when it comes to controlling labour.
     
  18. cupcrazyman Stupid Sexy Flanders

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    I always wondered why you can return to the NCAA after being drafted but not the other sports ?
     
  19. BOS358 Registered User

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    Donato did not play for the Bruins while playing in the NCAA. After Harvard's season ended, he signed his contract and then played for the Bruins. He would have been ineligible to play for the Crimson during what would have been his senior year. He did, however, continue to attend classes, as his tuition was still covered and the NCAA has no jurisdiction over who attends classes.
     
  20. BOS358 Registered User

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    In football and basketball, players file paperwork withe the respective leagues to make themselves eligible for the draft. The NCAA considers this the same as signing a contract with a team. In hockey and baseball, the players are automatically eligible by virtue of turning 18 by a certain day. No signature required, no loss of eligibility.
     
  21. BadgerBruce Registered User

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    The USHL is member of USA Hockey, the national governing body for amateur hockey in America. If push ever came to shove, the USHL would need to obey USA Hockey, their sole governing body.

    The CHL is not a member of USA Hockey (though they draft US players and have franchises in the country) and is what’s termed a “Member Partner” of Hockey Canada.

    This makes the CHL extraordinarily unique — with the exception of independent junior leagues in North America, most of which have hitched their wagon to AAU membership — all North American junior hockey is subject to national governing body oversight.

    I’m old enough to remember when Canada’s 3 major junior hockey leagues were governed by the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association, Hockey Canada’s forerunner. I’m also old enough to remember when players could freely move from major junior hockey to NCAA hockey, though only a handful actually did.

    This ended around 1980, just shortly after David Branch became the President of what is now the Ontario Hockey League. Branch withdrew the OHL from the Ontario Hockey Association, the Hockey Canada branch that oversees both Junior and Senior (think Alan Cup) amateur hockey in the province.

    To this very day the Ontario Hockey League pays the Ontario Hockey Association a somewhat token amount ($25 or $30 K) each season for the right to represent Ontario in Memorial Cup competition.

    By withdrawing the OHL from the OHA, the league no longer had a legitimate claim to amateur status. The other 2 major junior hockey leagues (Western and Quebec) did the same thing.

    This absence of genuine amateur standing within a national governing body is the fundamental reason why CHL players are not eligible to compete in the NCAA.

    It isn’t really about the few dollars CHL players are paid — that weekly stipend system dates back over 90 years — Bobby Orr got his $25 per week in Oshawa nearly 60 years ago when the NHL sponsorship system and C-cards were the norm in Canadian junior hockey. No, even then the junior teams and leagues were governed by the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association, so nobody lost amateur status until they “turned pro.”

    Don’t expect anything to change. The CHL and the NCAA view each other as competitors, and we could start a brand new thread to explore the nuances of that unholy war.
     
  22. bigdog16 Registered User

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    Probably not. CIS atmospheres and US College atmospheres are just completely different. It would never be able to rival the NCAA
     
  23. sharknado Registered User

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    If you are referring to attendance, then I would agree. NCAA attendance for hockey with some school are high but you have alot of D1 and D3 schools where attendance average is under 500 a game. However, I am talking about hockey canada and its inability to market their own product. If they market CIS properly and go hard at NCAA with ads about how expensive it is even with a scolarship, attendance would rise and canadian kids would stay here. The big issue is, Hockey Canada has no idea how to do anything related to Marketing.
     
  24. bigdog16 Registered User

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    There was 1 D1 school with average attendance under 500. College with a scholarship isn't expensive. And a US College degree is more prestigious than a CIS one. CIS will never have top tier prospects, the NCAA always will. There are a lot more reasons than just marketing why the CIS will never be the NCAA
     
  25. sharknado Registered User

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    What is not expensive to you? With the exception of the Ivy schools where there is no free ride, you are paying alot. With a roster of 25 players where 8 are free rides, either 17 kids have to pay full tuition or 25 kids will split the cost of 17 full tuitions.

    You think John Molson School of business, McGill medicine, McGill Law, etc are all less prestigious than the same degree from Chatham for example?
    Do you think that the typical HR person anywhere outside of the US has ever heard of your US schools other than the Ivy ones?
     

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