Ultimate Braggin’ Rights: Hawks vs Penguins

[Gurglesons]

Daley very good throughout his career...just not as a Hawk LOL

P much. Part of that seemingly on Q tho’

 

[SimpleJack]

P much. Part of that seemingly on Q tho’

Agreed about Q being a factor. And then they traded him for the corpse of Scuderi LOLOLOL!

 

[SimpleJack]

Pens fans:

LOLOLOL at peak Toews being anywhere near Crosby....then they go and say peak Letang was = Keith.


C’mon guys...let’s be fair here...

 

[SimpleJack]

Again let me be clear: If we’re talking overall career it’s not close. Toews is a zit on Crosby’s ass.

But peak 2010 Conn Smythe Toews was absolutely undeniably almost as good as Crosby as an all around player. Not quite as good. But almost.

 

[Gurglesons]

Pens fans:

LOLOLOL at peak Toews being anywhere near Crosby....then they go and say peak Letang was = Keith.


C’mon guys...let’s be fair here...

2016 Letang and 2015 Keith aren’t that far apart.

Letang has consistently been a top five d man in the league since 2010.

 

[SimpleJack]

2016 Letang and 2015 Keith aren’t that far apart.

Letang has consistently been a top five d man in the league since 2010.

No I agree. I think it’s close. But my point is if you’re willing to look at just 2016 peak Letang and leave out the rest, then why can’t they apply the same thought process when comparing peak Toews to Crosby?

 

[Gurglesons]

Again let me be clear: If we’re talking overall career it’s not close. Toews is a zit on Crosby’s ass.

But peak 2010 Conn Smythe Toews was absolutely undeniably almost as good as Crosby as an all around player. Not quite as good. But almost.

2009 Crosby was at a level we haven’t seen from a forward since the Sakic / Forsberg days. The closest comparison is 2008 Zetterberg and nobody has really come close to him and Malkin that year. Toews’ impact came on the PP offensively they year.

Crosby was also playing with a 30+ Guerin and Kunitz not a prime Hossa.

 

[Gurglesons]

No I agree. I think it’s close. But my point is if you’re willing to look at just 2016 peak Letang and leave out the rest, then why can’t they apply the same thought process when comparing peak Toews to Crosby?

See above. It isn’t a mark on Toews it’s just 2008 and 2009 Crosby was something we haven’t seen since the late 90s early 2000s in terms of single hand domination. Toews is was a great piece, but I mean I think Hawks fans even admit Kane should have won that Smythe.

 

[CanadienShark]

2010 Conn Smythe winning Toews put up 29 pts in 22 playoff games while being elite defensively.

How does 2009 Crosby “shit all over” that?

They were very close at their peaks. Still slight edge to Crosby though.

Richards was stapled to Kane throughout much of 2015 including all the post season. He would definitely be 2C. Or at least whatever line you wanna call Kane’s line.

I mean let’s be honest both these rosters would be “unfair” lol...

Funny enough, Crosby was more productive (per game) the year before and after. Peak Toews can hold up to Crosby. What sets them apart is that Crosby has been at a higher level, more consistently, throughout the vast majority of their careers. I do agree with you that Toews' Conn Smythe run was as good as any run that Crosby has had.

 

[SimpleJack]

Funny enough, Crosby was more productive (per game) the year before and after. Peak Toews can hold up to Crosby. What sets them apart is that Crosby has been at a higher level, more consistently, throughout the vast majority of their careers. I do agree with you that Toews' Conn Smythe run was as good as any run that Crosby has had.

Finally somebody understands lol...

Though IMO it was ALMOST as good, not quite as good. Peak 2010 Toews was spectacular, but Crosby was still just a smidge better.

 

[Gurglesons]

Funny enough, Crosby was more productive (per game) the year before and after. Peak Toews can hold up to Crosby. What sets them apart is that Crosby has been at a higher level, more consistently, throughout the vast majority of their careers. I do agree with you that Toews' Conn Smythe run was as good as any run that Crosby has had.

Crosby had nearly as many ES goals in 2009 as Toews had ES points.

Toews in 2010's impact from a individual perspective isn't even close to what Sid did in 08 and 09.

Sharp and Kane were driving the Hawks offense in 2010.

 

[SimpleJack]

Crosby had nearly as many ES goals in 2009 as Toews had ES points.

Toews in 2010's impact from a individual perspective isn't even close to what Sid did in 08 and 09.

Sharp and Kane were driving the Hawks offense in 2010.

Toews was just as pivotal to the Hawks that season as Kane. Probably even more so. Can’t only look at offense. Toews was the superior 2way player and also dominant at the dot.

 

[Gurglesons]

Toews was just as pivotal to the Hawks that season as Kane. Probably even more so. Can’t only look at offense. Toews was the superior 2way player and also dominant at the dot.

Neat. 2009 Penguins were basically Crosby and Malkin going off in a way we haven't seen since the 90s.

 

[SimpleJack]

This is the first thread/poll I’ve created that people have actually cared about/responded to. I feel so cool rn. What a moment in my life...

 

[SimpleJack]

Neat. 2009 Penguins were basically Crosby and Malkin going off in a way we haven't seen since the 90s.

Neat. I agree.

 

[TheGuiminator]

On paper, the Penguins are a better team.

However, if you look at recent history, they got crushed pretty much everytime they played against the Hawks.

Chicago would probably win in 4 or 5.

 

[DearDiary]

This is the first thread/poll I’ve created that people have actually cared about/responded to. I feel so cool rn. What a moment in my life...

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Definitely true about peak Toews. He was THAT good. Problem is he fell off and regressed rather shortly after while Crosby not only stayed elite but maybe got even better and to this day remains elite. Penguins fans are really having a hard time understanding how great peak Toews was as an all around player. Still not as good as Sid, but very close. To laugh at it or act like there was some major gap between the two is just homerism at its finest.

Peak Toews was never close to peak Crosby.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Letang in 2016 was a force.

He was. But Keith in 2015 is probably the 2nd best smythe run post lockout. Letang wasn't at that level.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Letang should have won the Conn Smythe in 2016. That was absolute peak Letang, so I don't see it as a completely ridiculous claim. I think Keith is better, but it's not like a huge difference.

I think Letang, Gonchar and Dumoulin cancel out Keith, Seabrook and Hjalmarsson. I think those groups of 3 are about even.

 

[JaegerDice]

I'm going to adjust the Blackhawks lineup a bit.

Saad - Toews - Hossa
Byfuglien - Sharp - Kane
Bickell - Shaw - Versteeg
Ladd - Bolland - Frolik
Kruger, Teravainen

Keith - Seabrook
Oduya - Hjalmarsson
Campbell - Rozsival
Leddy

Crawford
Niemi

Honestly, at the end of the day, I think the series comes down to who scores more: Malkin or Kane.

I don't mind the peak Crosby vs peak Toews matchup. Peak Toews is pretty damn good, and I think peak Saad and peak Hossa are better than any combination of players the Penguins can pair with Sid short of putting Malkin on his line... which would hurt their depth. Peak Crosby is a freak and is going to get his points, but that Blackhawks line is damn good and is going to keep the puck away from him for a lot of the time.

I think both teams have good hard-match shutdown lines, and potent bum-slayers.

Both Malkin and Kane tend to get deployed in heavy ozone starts behind a top line that eats the tougher competition. Generally speaking, given that similar deployment, Malkin scores more, both in the RS and the playoffs. I think peak Byfuglien and peak Sharp make that line a bigger pain in the ass than some of the other lines Kane has been on in the past (away from Toews, anyway), but peak Malkin was just a force of nature.

So the question for me becomes, can the Blackhawks D and G do enough to even out the offensive advantage of the Penguins top-end skill (ie, can they erase the gap between Malkin and Kane). And I think they can and do.

I think Corey Crawford has the highest peak of any goalie on either team. Frankly, I take Corey Crawford's .926 SV/1.94 GAA (RS) and .932 SV/1.89 GAA (Playoffs) from 2013 against ANY team.

I think the Blackhawks have the best defensemen on the list, and three of the top five defensemen. More-over, I look at the Oduya-Hjalmarsson pair as something of a secret weapon. Oduya is not one of the best dmen in this group, but the Oduya-Hjalmarsson pair has proven repeatedly that they can take on the toughest assignments in the toughest starts and make it work, even if they aren't the prototype elite shutdown defensemen. That frees up Keith and Campbell to use their transition game, and lets Seabrook get more Ozone time, and Roszival, who was great at his Blackhawks peak in 2013, to get sheltered ice-time.

I think it would be a long, fun series. But I think the better overall defensive game of the Blackhawks does overcome the raw offensive advantage at the top end of the Penguins lineup.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I always felt the Hawks were just a little bit better.

While they didn’t have a generational talent in Crosby they were just so incredibly well constructed. Tremendous top-4 defensively, and awesome depth. Add the clutch scoring of Kane and dominant two-way play of Toews and I’d have to give them the edge.

 

[SimpleJack]

I'm going to adjust the Blackhawks lineup a bit.

Saad - Toews - Hossa
Byfuglien - Sharp - Kane
Bickell - Shaw - Versteeg
Ladd - Bolland - Frolik
Kruger, Teravainen

Keith - Seabrook
Oduya - Hjalmarsson
Campbell - Rozsival
Leddy

Crawford
Niemi

Honestly, at the end of the day, I think the series comes down to who scores more: Malkin or Kane.

I don't mind the peak Crosby vs peak Toews matchup. Peak Toews is pretty damn good, and I think peak Saad and peak Hossa are better than any combination of players the Penguins can pair with Sid short of putting Malkin on his line... which would hurt their depth. Peak Crosby is a freak and is going to get his points, but that Blackhawks line is damn good and is going to keep the puck away from him for a lot of the time.

I think both teams have good hard-match shutdown lines, and potent bum-slayers.

Both Malkin and Kane tend to get deployed in heavy ozone starts behind a top line that eats the tougher competition. Generally speaking, given that similar deployment, Malkin scores more, both in the RS and the playoffs. I think peak Byfuglien and peak Sharp make that line a bigger pain in the ass than some of the other lines Kane has been on in the past (away from Toews, anyway), but peak Malkin was just a force of nature.

So the question for me becomes, can the Blackhawks D and G do enough to even out the offensive advantage of the Penguins top-end skill (ie, can they erase the gap between Malkin and Kane). And I think they can and do.

I think Corey Crawford has the highest peak of any goalie on either team. Frankly, I take Corey Crawford's .926 SV/1.94 GAA (RS) and .932 SV/1.89 GAA (Playoffs) from 2013 against ANY team.

I think the Blackhawks have the best defensemen on the list, and three of the top five defensemen. More-over, I look at the Oduya-Hjalmarsson pair as something of a secret weapon. Oduya is not one of the best dmen in this group, but the Oduya-Hjalmarsson pair has proven repeatedly that they can take on the toughest assignments in the toughest starts and make it work, even if they aren't the prototype elite shutdown defensemen. That frees up Keith and Campbell to use their transition game, and lets Seabrook get more Ozone time, and Roszival, who was great at his Blackhawks peak in 2013, to get sheltered ice-time.

I think it would be a long, fun series. But I think the better overall defensive game of the Blackhawks does overcome the raw offensive advantage at the top end of the Penguins lineup.

Very solid overall evaluation.

I like that you highlighted the importance of Hjalmarsson and Oduya. They were so good.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm going to adjust the Blackhawks lineup a bit.

Saad - Toews - Hossa
Byfuglien - Sharp - Kane
Bickell - Shaw - Versteeg
Ladd - Bolland - Frolik
Kruger, Teravainen

Keith - Seabrook
Oduya - Hjalmarsson
Campbell - Rozsival
Leddy

Crawford
Niemi

Honestly, at the end of the day, I think the series comes down to who scores more: Malkin or Kane.

I don't mind the peak Crosby vs peak Toews matchup. Peak Toews is pretty damn good, and I think peak Saad and peak Hossa are better than any combination of players the Penguins can pair with Sid short of putting Malkin on his line... which would hurt their depth. Peak Crosby is a freak and is going to get his points, but that Blackhawks line is damn good and is going to keep the puck away from him for a lot of the time.

I think both teams have good hard-match shutdown lines, and potent bum-slayers.

Both Malkin and Kane tend to get deployed in heavy ozone starts behind a top line that eats the tougher competition. Generally speaking, given that similar deployment, Malkin scores more, both in the RS and the playoffs. I think peak Byfuglien and peak Sharp make that line a bigger pain in the ass than some of the other lines Kane has been on in the past (away from Toews, anyway), but peak Malkin was just a force of nature.

So the question for me becomes, can the Blackhawks D and G do enough to even out the offensive advantage of the Penguins top-end skill (ie, can they erase the gap between Malkin and Kane). And I think they can and do.

I think Corey Crawford has the highest peak of any goalie on either team. Frankly, I take Corey Crawford's .926 SV/1.94 GAA (RS) and .932 SV/1.89 GAA (Playoffs) from 2013 against ANY team.

I think the Blackhawks have the best defensemen on the list, and three of the top five defensemen. More-over, I look at the Oduya-Hjalmarsson pair as something of a secret weapon. Oduya is not one of the best dmen in this group, but the Oduya-Hjalmarsson pair has proven repeatedly that they can take on the toughest assignments in the toughest starts and make it work, even if they aren't the prototype elite shutdown defensemen. That frees up Keith and Campbell to use their transition game, and lets Seabrook get more Ozone time, and Roszival, who was great at his Blackhawks peak in 2013, to get sheltered ice-time.

I think it would be a long, fun series. But I think the better overall defensive game of the Blackhawks does overcome the raw offensive advantage at the top end of the Penguins lineup.

As I said in my original post. Hawks likely dominate the series. They have always beaten the Penguins.

That being said. The forward gap of having prime Guentzel in 2017 and HBK is just too much for that Hawks team to match up with. The depth there is insane. You have a legitimate 1st line behind Crosby and Malkin firing at a 30 pt pace and on top of that you have Rust who was an ES monster for Pitt in 2016 and 2017 and Guentzel on top of that. It's just too much. Staal on L4 with an 8 goal Talbot and a 7 goal Fedotenko as I outlined is insane.

Defensive wise the Hawks have the better defensive, but I think you're over estimating the difference between Hjalmarsson and Dumoulin and Oduya and Hainsey. Plus, prime Gonchar from 09 is easily a better player than Seabrook.

We are also going prime cup run. Murray's 2017 where he was .937 and .170 would be the best IMO.

 

[Voight]

2016 Letang and 2015 Keith aren’t that far apart.

Letang has consistently been a top five d man in the league since 2010.

Lol not even close. 2015 Keith was the best playoff run by a d-man in the last 30 years after Leetch and 2006 Pronger.

Letang has also not consistently been a top 5 defensemen the last 10 years. Chara has more Norris nominations than he does since 2010 as an example. Letang has had some good years, making two 2nd ASTs and getting nominated for the Norris once, but to say hes consistently been a top five d-man is just false.