Ultimate Braggin’ Rights: Hawks vs Penguins

[SimpleJack]

Each franchise has a great case to be made as “team of the decade”. If only they could have met on the ice...

Using ONLY players from each of their 3 Cup winning rosters, assemble their ultimate lineups and debate which team was the best. For example the Hawks can’t use Panarin, Penguins can’t use Neal, etc. Assume all players are at their peak as a Hawk/Penguin(not whoever else they may have played for throughout their career). For example Hawks get prime Bickell before he fell off, but they don’t get current Teravainen.

These might not be perfect so feel free to mess around and create your own, just my suggested lineups:

BLACKHAWKS:

Byfuglien-Toews-Saad
Versteeg-Richards-Kane
Bickell-Sharp-Hossa
Ladd-Bolland-Frolik
Shaw, Vermette

Keith-Seabrook
Oduya-Hjalmarsson
Leddy-Campbell
Sopel

Crawford
Niemi


PENGUINS:

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel
Dupuis-Staal-Sheary
Talbot, Hornqvist

Dumolin-Letang
Gonchar-Orpik
Maatta-Schultz
Cole

MAF
Murray

Click to read more...

 

[Gurglesons]

Each franchise has a great case to be made as “team of the decade”. If only they could have met on the ice...

Using ONLY players from each of their 3 Cup winning rosters, assemble their ultimate lineups and debate which team was the best. For example the Hawks can’t use Panarin, Penguins can’t use Neal, etc. Assume all players are at their peak as a Hawk/Penguin(not whoever else they may have played for throughout their career). For example Hawks get prime Bickell before he fell off, but they don’t get current Teravainen.

These might not be perfect so feel free to mess around and create your own, just my suggested lineups:

BLACKHAWKS:

Byfuglien-Toews-Saad
Versteeg-Richards-Kane
Bickell-Sharp-Hossa
Ladd-Bolland-Frolik
Shaw, Vermette

Keith-Seabrook
Oduya-Hjalmarsson
Leddy-Campbell
Sopel

Crawford
Niemi


PENGUINS:

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel
Dupuis-Staal-Sheary
Talbot, Hornqvist

Dumolin-Letang
Gonchar-Orpik
Maatta-Schultz
Cole

MAF
Murray

On paper the Penguins would have the stronger roster. I think the center depth is just too much for the Hawks to overcome and the depth wingers are comparable.

Like, we are talking prime of the playoffs so 2009 Malkin and Crosby who were 12+ goal 30+ pt performers. And then on wing 2016 Kessel who put up 10 goals and 2017 Guentzel who put up 13 goals. That’s without getting into the support players like Rust, Talbot, Bonino, and Hagelin which would significantly win over the weaker Hawks playoff runs like Ladd, Frolik and Versteeg.

Defense wise, I also have to go with the Pens. Dumo and Hammer at their peak are pretty similar and I think 2009 Gonch is definitely a level about Seabrook with Letang and Keith being about the same with 2015 Keith versus 2016 Letang being 2 way monsters. Hawks probably win the 3rd pairing battle given peak Campbell.

Goaltending is close. I think if we are going peak in playoffs 2017 Murray was on another level than Niemi or Crow in any of the cup runs.

But, Hawks have had our number forever so I think if they actually play the Hawks win.

I think this is the roster we would likely see.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Kunitz - Malkin - Rust
Hagelin - Bonino - Kessel
Fedotenko - Staal - Talbot


Gonchar - Letang
Dumoulin - Hainsey
Cole - Daley

Murray
MAF

 

[CanadienShark]

Pens. Better forwards, comparable goaltending, comparable defence outside of Keith, but I think the Pens centre depth tips the scales.

 

[SimpleJack]

On paper the Penguins would have the stronger roster. I think the center depth is just too much for the Hawks to overcome and the depth wingers are comparable.

Like, we are talking prime of the playoffs so 2009 Malkin and Crosby who were 12+ goal 30+ pt performers. And then on wing 2016 Kessel who put up 10 goals and 2017 Guentzel who put up 13 goals. That’s without getting into the support players like Rust, Talbot, Bonino, and Hagelin which would significantly win over the weaker Hawks playoff runs like Ladd, Frolik and Versteeg.

Defense wise, I also have to go with the Pens. Dumo and Hammer at their peak are pretty similar and I think 2009 Gonch is definitely a level about Seabrook with Letang and Keith being about the same with 2015 Keith versus 2016 Letang being 2 way monsters. Hawks probably win the 3rd pairing battle given peak Campbell.

Goaltending is close. I think if we are going peak in playoffs 2017 Murray was on another level than Niemi or Crow in any of the cup runs.

But, Hawks have had our number forever so I think if they actually play the Hawks win.

I think this is the roster we would likely see.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Kunitz - Malkin - Rust
Hagelin - Bonino - Kessel
Fedotenko - Staal - Talbot


Gonchar - Letang
Dumoulin - Hainsey
Cole - Daley

Murray
MAF

Hmmmmm I’m not so sure I agree about the center position. I mean obviously Malkin>>>Richards but I’d take Sharp and Bolland at 3C/4C over Bonino and Staal any day of the week. Peak Toews was also unbelievable. Like almost as good as Crosby.

Defense definitely in the Hawks favor. Hammer and Oduya was arguably the best shutdown pair in the league back in 2013. And Keith/Seabrook beats anything the Pens ever had as a top pairing. Goaltending goes to Penguins though. It’s very close all things considered.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hmmmmm I’m not so sure I agree about the center position. I mean obviously Malkin>>>Richards but I’d take Sharp and Bolland at 3C/4C over Bonino and Staal any day of the week. Peak Toews was also unbelievable. Like almost as good as Crosby.

Defense definitely in the Hawks favor. Hammer and Oduya was arguably the best shutdown pair in the league back in 2013. And Keith/Seabrook beats anything the Pens ever had as a top pairing. Goaltending goes to Penguins though. It’s very close all things considered.

We are talking PEAK playoffs where they won a cup.

Crosby’s 2009 shits all over anything Toews ever did.

Sharp if playing 3C has the advantage. But my assumption is that Richards wouldn’t even be the 2C or 3C if we are going by what is outlined in the first post it would be Toews, Sharp, Bolland. So he is either going up against 36 pt Malkin or 30+ 15 goal Crosby.

2009 Crosby and Malkin with actual forward depth like 2016 HBK, and 2017 Guentzel is just unfair.

The defense thing is true in a vacuum. But 2009 Gonchar plus 2016 Letang is a much different story versus Seabrook and Keith.

 

[SimpleJack]

We are talking PEAK playoffs where they won a cup.

Crosby’s 2009 shits all over anything Toews ever did.

Sharp if playing 3C has the advantage. But my assumption is that Richards wouldn’t even be the 2C or 3C if we are going by what is outlined in the first post. So he is either going up against 36 pt Malkin or 30+ 15 goal Crosby.

2009 Crosby and Malkin with actual forward depth like 2016 HBK, and 2017 Guentzel is just unfair.

2010 Conn Smythe winning Toews put up 29 pts in 22 playoff games while being elite defensively.

How does 2009 Crosby “shit all over” that?

They were very close at their peaks. Still slight edge to Crosby though.

Richards was stapled to Kane throughout much of 2015 including all the post season. He would definitely be 2C. Or at least whatever line you wanna call Kane’s line.

I mean let’s be honest both these rosters would be “unfair” lol...

 

[Gurglesons]

2010 Conn Smythe winning Toews put up 29 pts in 22 playoff games while being elite defensively.

How does 2009 Crosby “shit all over” that?

They were very close at their peaks. Still slight edge to Crosby though.

Richards was stapled to Kane throughout much of 2015 including all the post season. He would definitely be 2C. Or at least whatever line you wanna call Kane’s line.

I mean let’s be honest both these rosters would be “unfair” lol...

2009 Crosby is like the 3rd best playoff run in the last 20 years that isn’t 2009 Malkin.

You’re out to lunch if you think 2010 Toews is comparable.

Crosby had twice the amount of goals and five times the ES amount of goals of Toews.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Penguins are substantially better down the middle, better in net (Niemi is a huge outlier with the other 3) and better on defense (assuming we're talking about players in the cup years and not players now, like 2013 Leddy and 2017 Schultz). The Hawks have the advantage on the wings, but I don't think that negates out the rest of it.

 

[SimpleJack]

Penguins are substantially better down the middle, better in net (Niemi is a huge outlier with the other 3) and better on defense (assuming we're talking about players in the cup years and not players now, like 2013 Leddy and 2017 Schultz). The Hawks have the advantage on the wings, but I don't think that negates out the rest of it.

How are the Penguins better defensively?? I don’t see it at all. Ron Hainsey? Trevor Daley? Orpik? Aside from The Dumo-Letang pair and Gonchar they don’t have the class of defenseman the Hawks do. And Keith-Seabs >> Dumo-Letang anyways. I agree about the goaltending though.

 

[Foppberg]

Hawks are better on the wing, defense, and arguably goaltending. Hard to bet against prime Crosby & Malkin though.

 

[SimpleJack]

Hawks are better on the wing, defense, and arguably goaltending. Hard to bet against prime Crosby & Malkin though.

Penguins definitely have the better goaltending IMO. But yeah the Hawks winger depth is absolutely ridiculous. U could flip flop and rearrange all 8 of them anyway you want basically. And that doesn’t even include 2015 Teravainen who was already pretty damn good as a rookie. Or prime Troy Brouwer.

 

[Foppberg]

Penguins definitely have the better goaltending IMO.

I'd take prime Crawford over MAF or Murray.

 

[SimpleJack]

Now that I think about it those Penguins wingers are pretty stacked too. This is VERY close...

 

[nowhereman]

Penguins definitely have the better goaltending IMO. But yeah the Hawks winger depth is absolutely ridiculous. U could flip flop and rearrange all 8 of them anyway you want basically. And that doesn’t even include 2015 Teravainen who was already pretty damn good as a rookie.

MAF was always a mystery and you never knew what to expect. In 2009, he was great. But beyond that, he really did cost the Penguins some more Cups and a dynasty title. I remember back on quite a few playoff series where he looked like hot garbage. In this case, you'd have to run with Murray unless you're guaranteed to get 2009 MAF and not a single glimmer of post-2009 MAF.

That said, since everyone is at their peaks, you could give the nod to the Pens. But Crawford and Neimi were REALLY good in their runs.

2010 Conn Smythe winning Toews put up 29 pts in 22 playoff games while being elite defensively.

How does 2009 Crosby “shit all over” that?

They were very close at their peaks. Still slight edge to Crosby though.

Richards was stapled to Kane throughout much of 2015 including all the post season. He would definitely be 2C. Or at least whatever line you wanna call Kane’s line.

I mean let’s be honest both these rosters would be “unfair” lol...

I really don't think it was all that close. Crosby (and Malkin) propped up a very underwhelming roster, as far as Cup-winners go, and had little in the way of offensive support (depending on your opinion of Ruslan Fedetenko and an almost 40 year old Bill Guerin). I watched every game of both players runs and it was clear that Crosby was a level above Toews (more than doubling him in goals), regardless of Toews' defensive prowess. The series Sid had against Capitals was one for the ages. They would have lost in the second round, had he not taken the team on his back. Put Toews on the Penguins, asking he to carry a line of Dupuis and Kunitz, and it's a difference story.

As a Canucks fan, I saw way more of Toews in the playoffs than I ever wanted to (though I would have taken him on my team in a heartbeat). But I was never really terrified of facing him; he was just really solid. Crosby was a terror on the ice, since he could beat you on every shift.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How are the Penguins better defensively?? I don’t see it at all. Ron Hainsey? Trevor Daley? Orpik? Aside from The Dumo-Letang pair and Gonchar they don’t have the class of defenseman the Hawks do. And Keith-Seabs >> Dumo-Letang anyways. I agree about the goaltending though.

Hainsey and Daley weren't even included on this team, and Orpik was a solid top-4 D when he was on the 2009 cup team.

The Penguins and Hawks have a very comparable top-3, with Keith being better than Letang, Gonchar being better than Seabrook and Dumoulin and Hjalmarsson cancelling each other out. I'd rather take the remaining Penguins (Orpik, Maatta and Schultz) over the remaining Hawks (Campbell, Leddy and Oduya), even though I think Campbell is the best of that group.

 

[Mickey Marner]

IMO, the Pens advantage at center and goalie outweighs the Hawks advantage on defense and the wings. Plus the Pens have been slightly more successful in real life.

 

[DearDiary]

How are the Penguins better defensively?? I don’t see it at all. Ron Hainsey? Trevor Daley? Orpik? Aside from The Dumo-Letang pair and Gonchar they don’t have the class of defenseman the Hawks do. And Keith-Seabs >> Dumo-Letang anyways. I agree about the goaltending though.

You stated that all players are in their peak, so I don't get why you're questioning Orpik, Daley and Hainsey? I guess the fact that you put Maatta and Schultz on the Penguins top 6 says enough that you don't know a thing about either of these teams

The only clear victory here is Pens at center/goalie and Hawks at wings

 

[SimpleJack]

You stated that all players are in their peak, so I don't get why you're questioning Orpik, Daley and Hainsey? I guess the fact that you put Maatta and Schultz on the Penguins top 6 says enough that you don't know a thing about either of these teams

Hainsey at his peak as a Penguin wasn’t anything special. Daley was very good offensively but that’s it. Leddy was better. I clearly stated in the OP that those were just suggested rosters and that you can remake them or use whoever as long as they’re part of one of the 3 Cup winning teams...but yeah you’re right I don’t know anything about anything...

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

On paper the Penguins would have the stronger roster. I think the center depth is just too much for the Hawks to overcome and the depth wingers are comparable.

Like, we are talking prime of the playoffs so 2009 Malkin and Crosby who were 12+ goal 30+ pt performers. And then on wing 2016 Kessel who put up 10 goals and 2017 Guentzel who put up 13 goals. That’s without getting into the support players like Rust, Talbot, Bonino, and Hagelin which would significantly win over the weaker Hawks playoff runs like Ladd, Frolik and Versteeg.

Defense wise, I also have to go with the Pens. Dumo and Hammer at their peak are pretty similar and I think 2009 Gonch is definitely a level about Seabrook with Letang and Keith being about the same with 2015 Keith versus 2016 Letang being 2 way monsters. Hawks probably win the 3rd pairing battle given peak Campbell.

Goaltending is close. I think if we are going peak in playoffs 2017 Murray was on another level than Niemi or Crow in any of the cup runs.

But, Hawks have had our number forever so I think if they actually play the Hawks win.

I think this is the roster we would likely see.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Kunitz - Malkin - Rust
Hagelin - Bonino - Kessel
Fedotenko - Staal - Talbot


Gonchar - Letang
Dumoulin - Hainsey
Cole - Daley

Murray
MAF

Hmmmmm I’m not so sure I agree about the center position. I mean obviously Malkin>>>Richards but I’d take Sharp and Bolland at 3C/4C over Bonino and Staal any day of the week. Peak Toews was also unbelievable. Like almost as good as Crosby.

Defense definitely in the Hawks favor. Hammer and Oduya was arguably the best shutdown pair in the league back in 2013. And Keith/Seabrook beats anything the Pens ever had as a top pairing. Goaltending goes to Penguins though. It’s very close all things considered.

 

[DearDiary]

Hainsey at his peak as a Penguin wasn’t anything special. Daley was very good offensively but that’s it. Leddy was better. I clearly stated in the OP that those were just suggested rosters and that you can remake them or use whoever as long as they’re part of one of the 3 Cup winning teams...but yeah you’re right I don’t know anything about anything...

You questioned how good Hainsey, Orpik and Daley were in a previous post, yet you had no problem seeing Maatta and Schultz on the top 6. I want to know your reasoning behind this

 

[SimpleJack]

Definitely true about peak Toews. He was THAT good. Problem is he fell off and regressed rather shortly after while Crosby not only stayed elite but maybe got even better and to this day remains elite. Penguins fans are really having a hard time understanding how great peak Toews was as an all around player. Still not as good as Sid, but very close. To laugh at it or act like there was some major gap between the two is just homerism at its finest.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hainsey at his peak as a Penguin wasn’t anything special. Daley was very good offensively but that’s it. Leddy was better. I clearly stated in the OP that those were just suggested rosters and that you can remake them or use whoever as long as they’re part of one of the 3 Cup winning teams...but yeah you’re right I don’t know anything about anything...

Hainsey and Daley were basically the # 2 defensemen on the 16/17 Penguins teams. Hainsey in a # 5 usage role would be great and he was consistently one of the best defensive Ds in the league.

Daley also was very good throughout his career. Both were on a low media markets.

 

[SimpleJack]

You questioned how good Hainsey, Orpik and Daley were in a previous post, yet you had no problem seeing Maatta and Schultz on the top 6. I want to know your reasoning behind this

Ok so in other words you want me to repeat myself?

Sure. I’ll say it one more time for ya.

Those were suggested rosters I just threw together in a matter of minutes. You can interchange and use other players. I’m not saying Maatta is better than anyone by having him there. I honestly forgot about Daley when I initially posted this. That’s why, again, they were just a reference and nothing more. I do however think Hainsey isn’t anything special. Not sure why you keep bringing him up.

 

[Gurglesons]

Letang in 2016 was a force.

 

[SimpleJack]

Hainsey and Daley were basically the # 2 defensemen on the 16/17 Penguins teams. Hainsey in a # 5 usage role would be great and he was consistently one of the best defensive Ds in the league.

Daley also was very good throughout his career. Both were on a low media markets.

Daley very good throughout his career...just not as a Hawk LOL