Ultimate Braggin’ Rights: Hawks vs Penguins

[Nadal On Clay]

Would be an awesome series to watch. One thing that cant be argued about though is that if you compare them in the whole picture (2007-present) Pens win. 2007 being the first year where the top players for both team were in the NHL.

 

[SimpleJack]

As I said in my original post. Hawks likely dominate the series. They have always beaten the Penguins.

That being said. The forward gap of having prime Guentzel in 2017 and HBK is just too much for that Hawks team to match up with. The depth there is insane. You have a legitimate 1st line behind Crosby and Malkin firing at a 30 pt pace and on top of that you have Rust who was an ES monster for Pitt in 2016 and 2017 and Guentzel on top of that. It's just too much. Staal on L4 with an 8 goal Talbot and a 7 goal Fedotenko as I outlined is insane.

Defensive wise the Hawks have the better defensive, but I think you're over estimating the difference between Hjalmarsson and Dumoulin and Oduya and Hainsey. Plus, prime Gonchar from 09 is easily a better player than Seabrook.

We are also going prime cup run. Murray's 2017 where he was .937 and .170 would be the best IMO.

Hawks forwards are just as stacked and include just as much firepower as Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel, HBK and company. On top of Toews, Kane, Sharp, and Hossa(who were all all stars) Bickell could have won the Conn Smythe in 2013. Byfuglien was an absolute monster top line caliber power forward in 2010. Brad Richards actually played very well for his age in 2015, still a legit 2C. Ladd, Versteeg, Bolland, Frolik, Saad, and Brouwer were all 20/20 caliber and capable of plugging into a top 6 role. Then there’s guys like Shaw, Teravainen, Vermette, Stalberg, Madden, etc. The overall depth AND the depth of top end firepower is = to that of the Penguins no matter how you slice it.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hawks forwards are just as stacked and include just as much firepower as Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel, and HBK. On top of Toews, Kane, Sharp, and Hossa(who were all all stars) Bickell could have won the Conn Smythe in 2013. Byfuglien was an absolute monster top line caliber power forward in 2010. Brad Richards actually played very well for his age in 2015, still a legit 2C. Ladd, Versteeg, Bolland, Frolik, Saad, and Brouwer were all 20/20 caliber and capable of plugging into a top 6 role.

Ladd had 6 points in the SC win.
Versteeg had 14 points in the SC win.
Frolik 10.
Brouwer 8.
Saad 11.
Richards 14.

Bolland and Buff obviously.

But, let's go with the hypothetical bottom six I proposed.

Hagelin - 16 points. Bonino - 18 pts. Kessel - 22 points.
Fedotenko - 14 points - Staal - 9 pts - Talbot 13 pts.

Four players in the Penguins bottom six are outproducing the entirety of your "depth scoring" outside of Versteeg and Richards.

If the argument is "career" prime, different story. But this is at the peak of their cup win. Ladd, Brouwer, and Frolik weren't at their peaks and even Buff to a degree wasn't either.

 

[SimpleJack]

Ladd had 6 points in the SC win.
Versteeg had 14 points in the SC win.
Frolik 10.
Brouwer 8.
Saad 11.
Richards 14.

Bolland and Buff obviously.

But, let's go with the hypothetical bottom six I proposed.

Hagelin - 16 points. Bonino - 18 pts. Kessel - 22 points.
Fedotenko - 14 points - Staal - 9 pts - Talbot 13 pts.

Four players in the Penguins bottom six are outproducing the entirety of your "depth scoring" outside of Versteeg and Richards.

If the argument is "career" prime, different story. But this is at the peak of their cup win. Ladd, Brouwer, and Frolik weren't at their peaks and even Buff to a degree wasn't either.

What about the 6 players in each teams top 6? Specifically the 4 wingers on each side? You might wanna add those up and compare them as well.

AND you can’t only look at playoff points. This includes those players form/performance during the entirety of those seasons. Regular and Playoffs. For instance Versteeg was very solid for the Hawks overall during the 2010 regular season, 2010 playoffs, and 2015 regular season. But he had a bad 2015 playoffs and didn’t produce much.

 

[Gurglesons]

What about the 6 players in each teams top 6? Specifically the 4 wingers on each side? You might wanna add those up and compare them as well.

AND you can’t only look at playoff points. This includes those players form/performance during the entirety of those seasons. Regular and Playoffs. For instance Versteeg was very solid for the Hawks overall during the 2010 regular season, 2010 playoffs, and 2015 regular season. But he had a bad 2015 playoffs and didn’t produce much.

So you are changing the argument of the thread?

The top two lines will be pretty much equal given Hossa was not in his prime in the playoffs in CHI.

But, having Crosby and Malkin as 30+ pt centers obviously tilts it compared to Richards and Toews. Moving Sharp there makes it a little bit better, but still you'd have two 30+ pt centers with Guentzel whose performance in the playoffs in 2017 was ridiculous.

And if we are including "regular season domination". The Pens forward depth likely gets even more impressive considering Staal wasn't really that dominate in the playoffs in 09 compared to the regular season and Kessel put up a 80 pt year in 2017.

If anything the regular season would severely discount some of the Hawks "playoff players" like Bickell and Bolland.

 

[jetsforever]

I really like how Buff is pencilled in as #1LW here and then later became an elite d-man as well.

 

[SimpleJack]

I really like how Buff is pencilled in as #1LW here and then later became an elite d-man as well.

I really do wonder what would have happened had he stayed at forward for the rest of his career. He was so dominant during those 2010 playoffs(PP and 5v5), had a very solid regular season too and was a good defenseman, and I think had he committed to being a top line power forward he could have easily been a regular 30 goal scorer.

 

[JackSlater]

It would be an interesting series but I prefer Chicago here. Deeper roster.

 

[Sorry]

Would be an awesome series to watch. One thing that cant be argued about though is that if you compare them in the whole picture (2007-present) Pens win. 2007 being the first year where the top players for both team were in the NHL.

Yes. At this point the Penguins are the best team since the lockout.

 

[SimpleJack]

Yes. At this point the Penguins are the best team since the lockout.

Yup agreed. Up till 2017/18 they were equal. But these past few seasons the Hawks have been in rebuild/retool mode and missing the playoffs, while the Penguins have remained elite.