Ulf Samuelsson rant/question.

[Epsilon]

Ulf is actually a solid contender for the most underrated player in NHL history.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Obviously an accident.

At a minimum, grossly negligent. Much more than a simple accident.

 

[Briere Up There*]

Mondou should have worn a visor.

 

[Big Phil]

Actually, dropyourgloves.com has Messier with 58 career fights and Samuelsson with 78. Now this is the kind of statistic that probably hides more than it shows (although their fight cards look to be a similar mix of tougher guys and pushovers), but to say that Messier was substantially more "stand up" than Ulfie is exaggerating.

For the record, Clarke clocks in at 40 career fights.

Hmmm, that's interesting. I would bet a ton of those fights for Clarke were prior to the Broad Street Bullies era. Now like I said about Messier people didn't want to fight him and it surprises me that he actually had 58 fights considering Howe had 22 in his career. We are talking actual fights right? In other words these guys got a major penalty for them correct? 78 for Ulfie that sounds awfully high and I am literally trying to trace back in my mind to picture these fights

Ulf is actually a solid contender for the most underrated player in NHL history.

(falls backwards in chair in disbelief) Are you serious? He was a solid defenseman. That's how I would say it, solid. You didn't complain when he was on your team but when he was the best defender on your team you didn't win either.

Hawerchuk, Elmer Lach, Andy Bathgate would fall into a class of being underrated despite all being Hall of Famers. Where do you get the basis that he was underrated?

 

[Dark Shadows]

Hmmm, that's interesting. I would bet a ton of those fights for Clarke were prior to the Broad Street Bullies era. Now like I said about Messier people didn't want to fight him and it surprises me that he actually had 58 fights considering Howe had 22 in his career. We are talking actual fights right? In other words these guys got a major penalty for them correct? 78 for Ulfie that sounds awfully high and I am literally trying to trace back in my mind to picture these fights



(falls backwards in chair in disbelief) Are you serious? He was a solid defenseman. That's how I would say it, solid. You didn't complain when he was on your team but when he was the best defender on your team you didn't win either.

Hawerchuk, Elmer Lach, Andy Bathgate would fall into a class of being underrated despite all being Hall of Famers. Where do you get the basis that he was underrated?

Most of Ulf's fights involved him starting them and then turtling

 

[vippe]

Yeah Ulf was a dirty player but nowhere near like some of you say. Your biased hatred for him really shines through. I'd be pissed if he injured my teams players but guess what, alot of players do that and he gets slammed more for it than pretty much everybody else. I mean Mahavlovich practically did the same thing to Orr that Ulf did to Neely and he's never brought up at all.

 

[mach777]

Back in the day, I remember him being nicknamed "Ulf the stick impaler".

 

[Slapshooter]

"Dirtiness" is a subjective term(and not at all that negative if you aske me), but as such I respect players opinions more than fan biases. Domi's sucker punch of Samuelsson was almost a deadly serious act and yet AFAIK nobody in the league defended Ulf verbally or otherwise. (Despite the fact that Domi himself was not a respected player.)

Marchment and some others may have been even more dangerous to other players health, but Samuelsson was hated because of his overall antics on the ice. Yes, Ulf was a tough and solid defensive D, but he was also like a crossbreed of Claude Lemieux and Bryan Marchment. It was good to hate him, though. NHL was much more fun to watch back then.

Btw, while talking about dangerous cheap shot artists and knee specialists, a guy named Craig Muni deserves a note.

 

[jkrx]

Most of Ulf's fights involved him starting them and then turtling

Don Cherry, is that you?

 

[Dark Shadows]

Don Cherry, is that you?

Nope. Just someone who watched him make dozens of dirty moves a game hoping someone would retaliate so that he could act like he was shot and draw a penalty. Was just what he did.

Don't get me wrong. He would drop the gloves a bit earlier in his career. But a guy playing the way he did would usually have at least twice as many fights AND far more fights against tougher opponents in that era. Watching him spear someone in the groin or slash them in the wrist and take a punch and fall down like he was shot got annoying after a time. Most people were annoyed that he refused to remove his visor in fights he started as well.

 

[jkrx]

Nope. Just someone who watched him make dozens of dirty moves a game hoping someone would retaliate so that he could act like he was shot and draw a penalty. Was just what he did.

Don't get me wrong. He would drop the gloves a bit earlier in his career. But a guy playing the way he did would usually have at least twice as many fights AND far more fights against tougher opponents in that era. Watching him spear someone in the groin or slash them in the wrist and take a punch and fall down like he was shot got annoying after a time. Most people were annoyed that he refused to remove his visor in fights he started as well.

I agree that he was annoying and dirty but if he got into a fight (meaning both players dropped the gloves) he usually fought it out (meaning he would grab as much as possible) the times he dove were when he picked a fight and the other player gave him a mouthwash or glove punched him (read tapped) in the face. Like the Brad May incident for example. I wouldnt say he dove either more embellished as he did get alot of punishment.

If we gonna compare:

On Ulfs fight card we have guys like Neely, Tocchet, Tiger Williams and Kocur

Messier best opponent is McSorley and after theat it quickly drops off to Dave Taylor and Peplinsky to more solid players who on occasion dropped there gloves like Otto and Macoun.

Lindros best opponents is Simon and Mcsorley and several bouts with Stevens.

 

[Big Phil]

I agree that he was annoying and dirty but if he got into a fight (meaning both players dropped the gloves) he usually fought it out (meaning he would grab as much as possible) the times he dove were when he picked a fight and the other player gave him a mouthwash or glove punched him (read tapped) in the face. Like the Brad May incident for example. I wouldnt say he dove either more embellished as he did get alot of punishment.

If we gonna compare:

On Ulfs fight card we have guys like Neely, Tocchet, Tiger Williams and Kocur

Messier best opponent is McSorley and after theat it quickly drops off to Dave Taylor and Peplinsky to more solid players who on occasion dropped there gloves like Otto and Macoun.

Lindros best opponents is Simon and Mcsorley and several bouts with Stevens.

Well like I said before Messier rarely had a challenger. He was feared. He built that reputation early in his career much in the way Howe did. It was a combination of fear/respect that scared the opponent off.

Yeah Ulf was a dirty player but nowhere near like some of you say. Your biased hatred for him really shines through. I'd be pissed if he injured my teams players but guess what, alot of players do that and he gets slammed more for it than pretty much everybody else. I mean Mahavlovich practically did the same thing to Orr that Ulf did to Neely and he's never brought up at all.

Yes Mahovlich did hit him with a knee. He was a Red Wing at that time so it would have been 1968-'71. The only thing is that Mahovlich wasn't a dirty player and it looked incidental as well because the Big M was writhing in pain on the ice too, not just Orr. Bill Barber did the exact same thing to Orr I think it was around 1974 or so. The difference is Barber got right up and went over to Orr on the ice trying to help him knowing he was hurt. Watch the film it won't lie. Now to me that says that these were not meant to happen.

Most of Ulf's fights involved him starting them and then turtling

haha, yeah I guess that's still considered a "fight"

 

[Briere Up There*]

I agree that he was annoying and dirty but if he got into a fight (meaning both players dropped the gloves) he usually fought it out (meaning he would grab as much as possible) the times he dove were when he picked a fight and the other player gave him a mouthwash or glove punched him (read tapped) in the face. Like the Brad May incident for example. I wouldnt say he dove either more embellished as he did get alot of punishment.

If we gonna compare:

On Ulfs fight card we have guys like Neely, Tocchet, Tiger Williams and Kocur

Messier best opponent is McSorley and after theat it quickly drops off to Dave Taylor and Peplinsky to more solid players who on occasion dropped there gloves like Otto and Macoun.

Lindros best opponents is Simon and Mcsorley and several bouts with Stevens.

Messier and Lindros were the focal points of their teams' offenses (at least after 1988,) so them fighting enforcers was probably frowned upon by coaches. Ulf was good, but he's a number 3/4 defenseman on a good team.

Additionally Lindros really had no equivalent in bouts. No stars matched his size or strength, and the players who did were often 5/6 depth defenseman or goons.

 

[jkrx]

Messier and Lindros were the focal points of their teams' offenses (at least after 1988,) so them fighting enforcers was probably frowned upon by coaches. Ulf was good, but he's a number 3/4 defenseman on a good team.

Additionally Lindros really had no equivalent in bouts. No stars matched his size or strength, and the players who did were often 5/6 depth defenseman or goons.

Even Mario fought a goon and no I am not saying that Messier and Lindros should have skated around looking for Probert and Kocur but I'd rather have seen them fight a real fighter or a Shanahan/Neely type of player rather than Todd Hlushko and Beranek.

Both Lindros and Messier picked their spots and did not answer any bells.

Well like I said before Messier rarely had a challenger. He was feared. He built that reputation early in his career much in the way Howe did. It was a combination of fear/respect that scared the opponent off.

Ridiculous. Are you actually saying that players like Cam Neely, Shanahan, Tiger Williams and Joey Kocur didn't fight Messier out of fear?

 

[Slapshooter]

Both Lindros and Messier picked their spots and did not answer any bells.

Lindros & Messier were superstars/franchise players while Samuelsson was not a star of any kind. A big difference. Superstars can and should pick their spots - if they are going to fight at all. Any coach would agree.

More importantly, enforcers and goons don't challenge superstars as often as they do jump on dirty pests and cheap shot artists which Ulf was. Samuelsson fight card has some impressive names, but I don't think it's that impressive that he just got pummeled by many enforcers.

 

[Slapshooter]

Well like I said before Messier rarely had a challenger. He was feared. He built that reputation early in his career much in the way Howe did. It was a combination of fear/respect that scared the opponent off.

Messier was feared because he could play mercilessly dirty(mainly with high elbows) and had a intimidating charisma, but I don't think Moose was feared as a scrapper. Gordie Howe was feared by all as he could beat people in clean and dirty ways. Some old timers say that Howe was the most feared player in the game.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Not all fights are equal, and most of Samuelsson's fights probably came about from players reacting to his chippy play. dropyourgloves rates his best fight (a loss vs. Ed Hospodar) at a 7/10. Still, usually his fights involved a lot of wrestling... which isn't too surprising, he just wasn't a very good fighter (no Europeans of that era were, to the best of my recollection).

Messier did fight more at the beginning of his career... but though he was tough, he was no tougher or scarier than a lot of 2nd tier tough guys. He fought a lot of guys like Tim Watters and Dave Taylor (not to mention John Paddock and Alain Vigneault) and never fought Secord, Tocchet, Neely, Kerr or Shanahan. He did have 4 tilts against McSorley... as per dropyourgloves; 2 are unrated, one was was a nothing scuffle and one (5.8/10) had McSorley lumping him pretty good before the linesmen jumped in.

Towards the end of his career most of his fights look a lot like all of Clarke's fights... pushing/shoving maybe a punch or two then a big scrum as a bunch of other players pile on and get in the way.

 

[jkrx]

Lindros & Messier were superstars/franchise players while Samuelsson was not a star of any kind. A big difference. Superstars can and should pick their spots - if they are going to fight at all. Any coach would agree.

More importantly, enforcers and goons don't challenge superstars as often as they do jump on dirty pests and cheap shot artists which Ulf was. Samuelsson fight card has some impressive names, but I don't think it's that impressive that he just got pummeled by many enforcers.

Here we go... Ulf didnt get pummeled alot if thats what you thinking he held his own against Kocur for example.

Yes they were superstars who played dirty and didnt want to answer any bells which was my point.

 

[connellc]

Here we go... Ulf didnt get pummeled alot if thats what you thinking he held his own against Kocur for example.

Yes they were superstars who played dirty and didnt want to answer any bells which was my point.

Ulf stopped fighting after Dale Hunter broke his cheekbone in a fight in 1992. He changed his game tremendously after that fight and never answered the bell and used to shy away from scrums.

 

[jkrx]

Ulf stopped fighting after Dale Hunter broke his cheekbone in a fight in 1992. He changed his game tremendously after that fight and never answered the bell and used to shy away from scrums.

Yup, this is true. Doesn't really change anything I said so far though.

 

[connellc]

Yup, this is true. Doesn't really change anything I said so far though.

Other than the fact that, I believe, there was two era's of Ulf. The era before this fight, he would at least drop the gloves on occasion and actually throw punches. This is the Ulf you're referring to constantly. It's probably hard for you to believe, but Don Cherry actually LIKED this guy for a short period of time before his knee jobs, turtles, stick work, sucker punches, and chirping.

To be honest, Messier was also very dirty but I don't believe he ended any careers. He almost ended Mike Modano's with a vicious head shot, but Ulf put many people out of commission for a long time. He's up there with the worst (probably top 8 all time), but I wouldn't call him the worst. Marchment was the worst for ending careers.

 

[jkrx]

Other than the fact that, I believe, there was two era's of Ulf. The era before this fight, he would at least drop the gloves on occasion and actually throw punches. This is the Ulf you're referring to constantly. It's probably hard for you to believe, but Don Cherry actually LIKED this guy for a short period of time before his knee jobs, turtles, stick work, sucker punches, and chirping.

To be honest, Messier was also very dirty but I don't believe he ended any careers. He almost ended Mike Modano's with a vicious head shot, but Ulf put many people out of commission for a long time. He's up there with the worst (probably top 8 all time), but I wouldn't call him the worst. Marchment was the worst for ending careers.

The thing is... how many careers did he end after that fight? He was still a dirty player, sure but as you said he wasn't the same after that fight.

 

[Big Phil]

Both Lindros and Messier picked their spots and did not answer any bells.

Lindros vs. McSorley
Lindros vs. Stevens

Lindros vs. Thornton where he bloodied Joe so badly that a number of Bruins fans will point to that precise moment where the once physical feared Thornton altered his game and focused more on offense.

Ridiculous. Are you actually saying that players like Cam Neely, Shanahan, Tiger Williams and Joey Kocur didn't fight Messier out of fear?

He scared people, that's all I will say. The elbow in the 1984 Canada Cup to Igor Stelnov or the numerous times where Messier threw a punch/elbow when someone was trying to take a run at him. Hey I never said Moose was clean, just feared. What he did to Rich Sutter, Jamie Macoun and even Martin Strbak in 2004 is just an example, he had his way on the ice

 

[jkrx]

Lindros vs. McSorley
Lindros vs. Stevens

Lindros vs. Thornton where he bloodied Joe so badly that a number of Bruins fans will point to that precise moment where the once physical feared Thornton altered his game and focused more on offense.

I've already mentioned the first two fights and as for the third. Good for Lindros but Thorton isnt really what I call a feared tough center in the sense of fighting.

He scared people, that's all I will say. The elbow in the 1984 Canada Cup to Igor Stelnov or the numerous times where Messier threw a punch/elbow when someone was trying to take a run at him. Hey I never said Moose was clean, just feared. What he did to Rich Sutter, Jamie Macoun and even Martin Strbak in 2004 is just an example, he had his way on the ice

There is a difference between feared and concerned about that you might get elbowed in the by someone who then will hide behind goons and referees. Kocur was feared.

 

[Dark Shadows]

I've already mentioned the first two fights and as for the third. Good for Lindros but Thorton isnt really what I call a feared tough center in the sense of fighting.

Why do you refer to them as "two" fights?
Messier and McSorely tangled several times, as did Lindros and Stevens.

And, Errr are you kidding about Thornton? At this point in time, Thornton was a tough, feared center in terms of fighting. He was more of a true power forward back before getting his jam smashed. Very chippy, looking to throw with anyone at a very young age against guys with 150-300 fights under their belts and much older than him. Joe was also a bit too chippy in his young days, getting suspended 3 times by 2002.