Ukrainians in the NHL

htpwn

Registered User
Nov 4, 2009
20,558
2,656
Toronto
That is not correct. Prominent example - the Shuiskys, rulers of Suzdal in the 17th century.

You miss the simple fact that there was no Ukraine several hundreds of years ago and the White Russia was just a regional name for one of many similar like the Black or Red Russia. Of curse there are some regional naming traditions, but in general all what is now Russia, Belorussia, Lithuania, Ukraine and even more were coglomerates of feudal territories ruled by different rulers, populated mostly by slavic peoples. And whether ukranian neo-nazi jerks today like or not back in the day those people mostly divided themselves into Russians, Lithuanians and Poles basically(as you adequately put it religion was more important than ethnicity). The names that are often considered ukrainian today were also perfectly common for Russians.

It is wrong to consider those names to be of ukrainian decent, just like the "russian" names with -ov -ev in the Ukraine don't necessarily indicate russian decent. There are perfectly ukrainian Ukranians with those names. Those names came into being in one big area at a time when there wasn't a dividing into Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians.

So the -ski or -skiy can be of perfectly russian decent and without any connecton to a narrow case you refered to.

The Shuiskys, like much of the Russian elite of the 14th-15th centuries, copied the Polish practice of adopting a surname based on their main holding or title, including the '-sky' suffix. A few later princely families, particularly those of Georgian patronage (i.e. Gruzinskys), followed that example and also adopted names ending in '-sky.' These were, however, the exceptions and not the rule. The overwhelming majority of the Russian nobility used surnames with Russian suffixes like '-ov' (i.e. Romanov) or '-in' (i.e. Pushkin). When surnames were adopted by society at large, they used those suffixes. '-sky' was only adopted in areas where there was a prominent Polish, Belarusian, or Ukrainian population living or in areas influenced by those languages.

I'm a bit confused about the rest of your argument: You are willing to concede there are regional differences, yet unwilling to acknowledge that certain naming customs may be exclusive to certain areas. The language spoken in Galicia was different than the language spoken in Moscow. It stands to reason, then, that there would be differences in naming customs. Among them, '-chuk' and '-sky' are common in this region and virtually unknown in Moscow.

That does not mean Ilya Kovalchuk is Ukrainian. No more so than Colton Parayko is. Both are however many generations removed from Ukraine. Both also have what could be considered Ukrainian names, in the same way Rielly, Coffey, and Quinn are Irish names.
 
Last edited:

SaltNPeca

Registered User
Jan 9, 2017
2,009
1,794
Köln
Slavic people from modern Russia, Belarus, east Ukraine is a RUSSIANS in general meaning

Most Western Canadian Ukrainian immigrant roots are from Galicia and Bukovyna. At the time and even now I think they'd be offended to be called RUSSIAN... generally.

Some from Central Ukraine, which was ruled by the Russian monarchy near the turn of the century, also came to Canada (although more like eastern Canadian cities, such as Toronto, Montreal, Hamilton, and Windsor). Maybe they wouldn't mind to be called "generally RUSSIAN"-Canadian. :popcorn:
 

Caser

@RUSProspects
May 21, 2013
13,755
12,613
Riga/Yaroslavl
twitter.com
Most Western Canadian Ukrainian immigrant roots are from Galicia and Bukovyna. At the time and even now I think they'd be offended to be called RUSSIAN... generally.

Some from Central Ukraine, which was ruled by the Russian monarchy near the turn of the century, also came to Canada (although more like eastern Canadian cities, such as Toronto, Montreal, Hamilton, and Windsor). Maybe they wouldn't mind to be called "generally RUSSIAN"-Canadian. :popcorn:

My great-grandmother was purely Ukrainian (from northern part of the Ukraine, if I remember correctly), which she wasn't denying in any way, but if I'd told her that she isn't Russian, I would probably have my butt kicked or something like that (yes, she had quite a temper). So yes, back in the days things were quite different than nowadays.
 

Ziggyjoe21

Registered User
Nov 12, 2003
9,028
2
Pitt
Peter Bonda was born in Ukraine but grew up in Slovakia. He's probably the best one.

Tverdovsky was the highest drafted Ukrainian.

Akim Aliu is probably the best currently active hockey player that was born and raised in Ukraine. Although he moved to Canada when he was 10 or so. His mom is Ukrainian but dad is African.
 

GaboriklessWild

Registered User
Oct 20, 2013
385
218
Peter Bonda was born in Ukraine but grew up in Slovakia. He's probably the best one.

Tverdovsky was the highest drafted Ukrainian.

Akim Aliu is probably the best currently active hockey player that was born and raised in Ukraine. Although he moved to Canada when he was 10 or so. His mom is Ukrainian but dad is African.

Come on man. Bondra has nothing to do with Ukraine. His father is Slovak and his mother polish origin.
 

Ziggyjoe21

Registered User
Nov 12, 2003
9,028
2
Pitt
Come on man. Bondra has nothing to do with Ukraine. His father is Slovak and his mother polish origin.

His profile says he was born in Ukraine.
Wikipedia says he got his Slovakian citizenship at 26 years old.

I know he grew up in and played for Slovakia but he was born in Ukraine.
 

GaboriklessWild

Registered User
Oct 20, 2013
385
218
His profile says he was born in Ukraine.
Wikipedia says he got his Slovakian citizenship at 26 years old.

I know he grew up in and played for Slovakia but he was born in Ukraine.

He was born in the Soviet Union. Stop making stuff up, Ukraine did not exist then. His father is Slovak, he just got a job in the Soviet Union. When Peter was three years old Bondra's family returned to Czechoslovakia.
 

Bobby Orr's Knees

Registered User
Dec 17, 2002
2,050
461
Where it hurts most
Visit site
He was born in the Soviet Union. Stop making stuff up, Ukraine did not exist then. His father is Slovak, he just got a job in the Soviet Union. When Peter was three years old Bondra's family returned to Czechoslovakia.
Ummm. What do you mean Ukraine didn't exist then? It was part of Soviet Union, but of course it existed. If you are soccer fan as I am, surely you do not think that Dynamo Kiev was a Russian club???
 

Bobby Orr's Knees

Registered User
Dec 17, 2002
2,050
461
Where it hurts most
Visit site
It didn't exist as a sovereign country at that time.
Ukraine existed as a separate culture and Ukrainians existed as an ethnicity at the time. Sovereignty means a self-governing state. It's a geo-political term that is different from ethnicity, which means belonging to a group with a common national and cultural tradition. The thread is discussing ethnic Ukrainians. Terry Sawchuk was not born in Ukraine, and Ukraine did not exist as a soverign contry. However he was a proud Ukrainian. You are thinking of Ukrainians as people that were born in post-Soviet independent Ukraine. That is completely incorrect.
 

Garl

Registered User
Oct 7, 2006
8,080
1,038
Ukraine existed as a separate culture and Ukrainians existed as an ethnicity at the time. Sovereignty means a self-governing state. It's a geo-political term that is different from ethnicity, which means belonging to a group with a common national and cultural tradition. The thread is discussing ethnic Ukrainians. Terry Sawchuk was not born in Ukraine, and Ukraine did not exist as a soverign contry. However he was a proud Ukrainian. You are thinking of Ukrainians as people that were born in post-Soviet independent Ukraine. That is completely incorrect.

Sure, but Bondra is not an ethnic ukrainian.
 

Garl

Registered User
Oct 7, 2006
8,080
1,038
Isn't this true of all countries?

Hm, no? In a country like Russia or Germany majority of people can trace their ancestry for 1000 years, and they lived there all that time.
 

Ziggyjoe21

Registered User
Nov 12, 2003
9,028
2
Pitt
He was born in the Soviet Union. Stop making stuff up, Ukraine did not exist then. His father is Slovak, he just got a job in the Soviet Union. When Peter was three years old Bondra's family returned to Czechoslovakia.

I know this is off topic but....WHAT? Ukraine existed for hundreds of years.

:help:
 

Cotton

Registered User
May 13, 2013
9,120
5,611
Hm, no? In a country like Russia or Germany majority of people can trace their ancestry for 1000 years, and they lived there all that time.

Yes, but its the same thing, only that Canada isn't very old.

What is Germany and Germans, for example? Well, a bunch of different states before they unified, a bunch of tribes before that, and before that they migrated mostly from Scandinavia/Northern Europe. As migrants they encountered and commingled with Celts, Balts, Slavs, and gallo-roman populations. And would spread all across Europe.

So a German can be a bunch of different things that originate from somewhere else.

Also, thats not exactly true about staying put for 1000 years. I, as a Canadian, can also trace my ancestry a 1000 years and do genealogical research for people as a hobby, I can tell you the ratio of incoming/outbound migrants/immigrants holds about the same for all nations.
 

GaboriklessWild

Registered User
Oct 20, 2013
385
218
Ukraine existed as a separate culture and Ukrainians existed as an ethnicity at the time. Sovereignty means a self-governing state. It's a geo-political term that is different from ethnicity, which means belonging to a group with a common national and cultural tradition. The thread is discussing ethnic Ukrainians. Terry Sawchuk was not born in Ukraine, and Ukraine did not exist as a soverign contry. However he was a proud Ukrainian. You are thinking of Ukrainians as people that were born in post-Soviet independent Ukraine. That is completely incorrect.

My point is still correct, and stands. Bondra was born in the Soviet Union and not Ukraine because it didn't exist as a sovereign country at that time. He has nothing to do with Ukraine.

Secondly, present-day West-Ukraina (including where Bondra was born) was part of Poland until WWII, Poles and Jews lived there (Bondra's mother is polish) not Ukrainians.
 

Bobby Orr's Knees

Registered User
Dec 17, 2002
2,050
461
Where it hurts most
Visit site
My point is still correct, and stands. Bondra was born in the Soviet Union and not Ukraine because it didn't exist as a sovereign country at that time. He has nothing to do with Ukraine.

Secondly, present-day West-Ukraina (including where Bondra was born) was part of Poland until WWII, Poles and Jews lived there (Bondra's mother is polish) not Ukrainians.
Nobody argued your point about Bondra. Especially not someone who posted right before you that Bondra is not Ukrainian. Your statement that Ukraine didn't exist was refuted. Just except the correction and move on.
 

GaboriklessWild

Registered User
Oct 20, 2013
385
218

Acallabeth

Post approved by Ovechkin
Jul 30, 2011
9,999
1,427
Moscow
Hm, no? In a country like Russia or Germany majority of people can trace their ancestry for 1000 years, and they lived there all that time.
Russia isn't a great example: it had like 5% of its modern territory 1000 years ago, is one of the most ethnically diverse countries on Earth and has a huge inner migration over the Soviet times. There's a Russian saying: "scratch a Russian, and you'll find a Tatar". Hapan or maybe something like Netherlands would be a better proof for your point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mattihp

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad