GDT: UFC 238: Cejudo vs. Moraes

m9

m9
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Wrestling background is important but it's much more important how they actually use it in MMA.

Daniel Cormier is a far more accomplished wrestler than Jon Jones, but when they get in the cage Jon Jones is the more effective wrestler because he will be the one that determines where the fight will go. Tony Ferguson would need to use his wrestling in a similar way to beat Khabib. I would need to re-watch some of Ferguson's fights to see if he could do it, I'm not so sure.
 

m9

m9
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Khabib has only finished 2 of his UFC fights in less than 10 min and Tony's tough to put away. I would not be surprised at all if Khabib wins, but I'd be surprised if he finished him early.


Does this mean great TDD? Or the ability to get back up when taken down?

The former, we've already seen how that plays out. Barboza has great TDD, but Khabib is too good. He's going to get pretty much everybody down at some point, so you've got to be able to handle yourself on the ground.

The latter, I agree. Gaethje would be an interesting fight with his wrestling, striking, and ability to take a beating. Tony's wrestling isn't on the same level as Gaethje, but I would be interested to see his BJJ against Khabib. Even if he doesn't catch Khabib with something, it might cause Khabib to adjust which could give Tony openings to get back up. That's if he's not able to just get back up. Raging Al was able to get up a few times. I think he was just too cautious on the feet because he was afraid of getting taken down again. Which is something else that would make Tony an interesting opponent. He does some wild and crazy **** in there sometimes. I wouldn't expect him to change that just because he's afraid it would end up on the ground.

In terms of Gaethje it would be both his combination of staying on his feet and also getting back up. Barboza has good TDD but is horrible once he's down. Barboza's game is also built around his kicks which open him up to takedowns. That's not going to work against Khabib.. and it didn't.
 

pistolpete11

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I didn't address it because I already had and you simply weren't satisfied with my response.
No. You didn't.

Gleisan Thibeau has a better and more successful wrestling background than Ferguson does and he has fought Khabib.
Khabib was 0 for 13 in his takedown attempts against Tibau.

Tony, who also fought Tibau, stuffed Tibau's only takedown attempt, then took him down himself, and submitted him in the first round.

What does that mean, Coach?

So Khabib is going to have a hard time getting Ferguson down and keeping him down, even though a far inferior wrestler to him in Kevin Lee took Ferguson down more than once and even mounted him at one point.
I don't see how saying Tony is a better wrestler than anyone Khabib has faced (except for Tibau, I guess) and thus could be harder to take down than his previous opponents isn't a valid point. So what if Lee was able to slip a punch and take Tony down? Lee's got some wrestling, too, and if it was him on the verge of fighting Khabib, he'd be the (second) best wrestler that Khabib has faced in the UFC. It doesn't mean Tony would out wrestle Khabib. It just means it's not going to be quite as easy for Khabib...or at least it stands to reason.

Since you ignored it last time I will bring it up again, if you don't believe me you can take Ben Askren's word for it.
I don't see how Ben Askren, talking in generalities, saying what we already know has anything to do with a potential fight with Tony. Yeah, Ben, we know. Khabib's a really good wrestler.

Khabib has every bit the endurance, pace, and durability that Ferguson does....
But please, tell me again about Ferguson's impressive wrestling background and how he's a ''national champion wrestler.
See, this is where you are completely missing the point. I'm not saying that Tony is better than Khabib or is going to beat Khabib. I'm saying he's better than anyone Khabib has faced in the UFC which makes for a really interesting fight. Yeah, maybe he wouldn't be the best striker, but he just f***ed up some pretty good strikers in his last 2 fights. He'd only be the second best wrestler he would have faced. He'd probably be the best BJJ player. He's got a chin. He's got a gas tank. He's got good hands, elbows, knees, kicks. He doesn't really have any major weaknesses. His biggest weakness might be that he's wild sometimes and gets hit, but that unpredictability is also a strength. Add it all up and he's the best and most complete fighter that Khabib would have faced.

Ferguson is a much better technical striker than Khabib, but it won't matter when he gets taken down like everyone else. That is the point that you keep missing or choosing to ignore.
As I've said numerous times, I think Tony being a better wrestler than anyone Khabib has faced (except of course Tibau) gives him the ability to stuff more takedowns than most of his previous opponents. The more time he can keep it on the feet, the better his chances are. If (and most likely when) Khabib does get him down, he can use his wrestling to get back up like Raging Al did. The differences being, Tony is a better wrestler, bigger, stronger, more explosive, and won't be fighting him in a 5 round fight on a day's notice. Or Tony can use his BJJ to either catch Khabib in something or make him defend those submissions which could give him an opening to get back to his feet.

Edit: Also as I've said numerous times, I'm not saying these things are going to happen. I'm saying they are realistic possibilities that prevent it from being a foregone conclusion that Khabib wins like you are saying.
 
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pistolpete11

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In terms of Gaethje it would be both his combination of staying on his feet and also getting back up. Barboza has good TDD but is horrible once he's down. Barboza's game is also built around his kicks which open him up to takedowns. That's not going to work against Khabib.. and it didn't.
Yeah, exactly, and that's why I give Tony a decent chance. His TDD isn't quite as good as Gaethje or Barboza who are both at 80%, but it's at 77%. But he has a good ground game if (and likely when) the fight would go to the ground with Khabib, so he can get to his feet...at least better than a guy like Barboza.
 
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The Madrigal

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No. You didn't.
I absolutely addressed it. Unlike you who has been called out for calling Ferguson a ''national champion wrestler'' two or three times without acknowledging it what so ever.

Your entire argument is built on the fact that Ferguson provides a much greater challenge for Khabib in large part due to his wrestling back ground. Unfortunately before I educated you you didn't even know really know the extent of his wrestling back ground.

Long story short it's nowhere near as good as you think it is because your knowledge of wrestling obviously isn't all that high. If it was you wouldn't be calling a guy who wrestled NCWA a national champion. My guess is you read or heard somewhere that he's a nation champion wrestler and didn't realize it was wrestling in NCWA, NOT NCAA. Furthermore I feel pretty safe in saying that you didn't even know what NCWA was before I told you and what type of competition level it is.

I am already correct in everything I am saying, but when a guy like Kevin Lee who is a FAR inferior wrestler and grappler to Khabib was able to take Ferguson more than once in their fight and even mount him my point is 100% validated. One of the greatest collegiate wrestlers of all time in Ben Askren calls Khabib the greatest MMA wrestler of all time, point validated. The gap between Khabib's wrestling ability and Ferguson's is so vast that it won't be a factor in their fight despite what you might think or claim.

So, you can attempt to insult me by calling me ''coach'' all you want, but perhaps instead you should focus on having more knowledge of a situation you want to discuss and educating yourself on HS, Collegiate, and International wrestling. This is my wheel house and if you want to discuss it don't come at me with ''but but but Ferguson is a national champion wrestler'' and not expect to get called out for what is a massively flawed and silly comment in the context of this discussion.
 

pistolpete11

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when a guy like Kevin Lee who is a FAR inferior wrestler and grappler to Khabib
This has never been questioned by me or anybody else.

One of the greatest collegiate wrestlers of all time in Ben Askren calls Khabib the greatest MMA wrestler of all time, point validated.
Nor has this.

The gap between Khabib's wrestling ability and Ferguson's is so vast
Nor this.


All you're doing is writing paragraph after paragraph trying to prove that Khabib is a better wrestler than Tony....which I've never questioned.

Your big rebuttal to the point that I'm actually making, that Tony is a better wrestler than anyone Khabib has faced, is that Khabib faced Gleison Tibau...a guy that Tony took down and submitted within a round.

And for what seems like the 1,000 time, the point is NOT that Tony would be able to out wrestle Khabib. It's that he has a better chance to stuff takedowns and/or get back to his feet better than Khabib's previous opponents because he's a better wrestler (except for Tibau, of course) and a better BJJ player than anyone Khabib has faced. More time on the feet = better chance to beat Khabib.

Just because Khabib is a better wrestler doesn't mean he is going to land every takedown and be able to keep him down if and when he does. Raging Al was able to get up multiple times against Khabib. And as I said before, Tony has more wrestling experience, is a better BJJ player, bigger, stronger, more explosive, and would be coming off a training camp preparing himself for a 5 round fight. Shit, even Conor stuffed some takedowns against Khabib. Make him work harder for the takedowns. Make him work harder to keep you down. Make him work harder to defend submissions. Hit him with some shots on the feet. All of this adds up and increases the chances of beating Khabib. Tony has the skills to do all of that better than anyone Khabib has faced because he'd be the most well rounded fighter Khabib would have faced.
 
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TheDawnOfANewTage

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Heyy, it's almost like we have to wait for the fight to determine these things.

I'll cite GSP as the example of a dude who dominated on the ground despite a lack of pedigree. Like, that was his bread and butter, and he used against some serious wrestlers at times.
 

MD thaivuN

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In terms of Gaethje it would be both his combination of staying on his feet and also getting back up. Barboza has good TDD but is horrible once he's down. Barboza's game is also built around his kicks which open him up to takedowns. That's not going to work against Khabib.. and it didn't.

What would set Gaethje apart from Barboza would be his ability to pressure and not take too many steps back. TDD is important and all, but avoiding the areas where the wrestler can start optimally shoot for takedowns is better. Barboza always voluntarily puts himself into the cage and that's a big no no against chain wrestlers.
 

pistolpete11

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Heyy, it's almost like we have to wait for the fight to determine these things.
This was my point from the beginning actually :laugh:. People were saying that Khabib would just take Tony down and smash him like everyone else. I said not necessarily. Although, it is certainly a possibility.

What would set Gaethje apart from Barboza would be his ability to pressure and not take too many steps back. TDD is important and all, but avoiding the areas where the wrestler can start optimally shoot for takedowns is better. Barboza always voluntarily puts himself into the cage and that's a big no no against chain wrestlers.
Barboza uses a lot of kicks, too, which invites a takedown.

To me though, the biggest difference is Gaethje's wrestling once it hits the mat. Barboza was completely overwhelmed. We've haven't seen Gaethje use it much in the UFC, but he was a D1 wrestler. If Raging Al is able to stand back up, I'd guess Gaethje would be able to as well.
 

Deen

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Khabib vs Cejudo is the fight. If Cejudo can pack on some pounds I would spend all my money to see that.
 

vladdy16

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Ferguson has been training for the Khabib fight for half of his career. He has the guys number and was poised to dust him at ufc 209.

His bottom game is going to be a huge drain on Khabib. In a 25 minute fight, there is nothing illogical about favoring Ferguson.

People mischaracterize his strengths and weaknesses so flippantly, it's amazing to see it still happening.
 

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