Tyler Biggs: Bust or Developing

[Mess]

Time to give up the dream, folks.

Biggs is not gonna make it.

He isn't even good enough for the ahl.

Don't be like habs fans, who are still holding out hope for mccarron. Who is actually worse than biggs.

Biggs struggled in the AHL as the level of competition seemed to be above him and he only could get limited opportunity on the 3rd and mostly 4th lines.

Perhaps it would be wise for Toronto to send Biggs to the ECHL for development as he would likely play higher up the depth chart and get more quality ice time. Perhaps gain some confidence.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I never understood moving up in the draft to get a player with projected limited upside in Biggs.

Having both the 30th and 39th would have been much better as it gave us two chances instead of the 22nd pick.

Players like Saad, Jenner, Gibson, Turco, Musil all were taken in the 30th to 43rd pick range that I'd be much happier having in our organization over Biggs.

A little off-topic from the Biggs thread but to expand on Morrison here...

I don't think Morrison has been overly bad in his position but I do agree that a scouting staff revamp wouldn't be a bad thing right now.

He's picked some solid players, one or two great ones in Rask and Steen of course, Kadri and Rielly are on track as well, but I don't think that's nearly enough really good talented players. Again, we seem to be OK finding NHL players but not nearly good enough in terms of quality. It could be worst I suppose, but it should be better as we are the richest team in the league.

JFJ and Burke/Nonis have done a good job building a good scouting staff compared to what it was prior to them joining circa 2003 but I think we should have come out of with more.

Perhaps we have been unlucky, perhaps it's the development side we are lacking but overall, I think we are due in getting a few gems that are not from the top 10 of a draft. Morrison is closing in on 10 years as a Leaf scout, 7 of them as the Head Scout... I think it may be time to see if we can upgrade on him.

I have been on the fence on our scouting dept. The good news is we seem to be finally paying more attention and placing more emphasis on drafting.

But, it seems to me as well we should have more prospects in our system. Many teams are able to find good players without needing a top five or top ten overall selection. The team cannot expect to be a contender in a cap world with this part of its organization being substandard.

 

[Mess]

A little off-topic from the Biggs thread but to expand on Morrison here...

I don't think Morrison has been overly bad in his position but I do agree that a scouting staff revamp wouldn't be a bad thing right now.

He's picked some solid players, one or two great ones in Rask and Steen of course, Kadri and Rielly are on track as well.

FYI .. Morrison's first draft was 2006 (Jiri Tlusty) .. Rask and Steen were drafted by Barry Trapp as Director of Amateur Scouting for Toronto..

JFJ replaced Trapp just before the 2006 entry draft, So Biggs and anyone taken 2006-2014 entry drafts are the ones to evaluate Morrison under for results.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Yes but that's not what I mean. For every Erik Karlsson there's a Tyler Biggs in regards to mid-late 1st round picks. Some picks turn out amazing and better than anyone predicted and some just don't work out, does that mean that it's the GM's or scouts' fault? Keep in mind that 1st rounders are rated highly from all scouts around the league, not just one team's scouts.

Well, that is exactly what scouts, GM's, talent evaluators are paid to do.

Sometimes they are wrong sometimes they are correct in their projections.

If they are wrong more often than the management of other teams then you have a problem and regardless of how "right" they thought they were at the time, they were "wrong."

Like holding NorTel stock at $125, because analysts predicted $200. Mistake!

Yes, it does mean its the GMs/Scouts fault. Like Ulf said, this is their job. And when other GMs/scouts outperform in similar circumstances, and the trend is clearly there, then you can expect that club to be at serious disadvantage. Its like being a carpenter and showing up for work without the proper tools.

 

[Atomos2]

FYI .. Morrison's first draft was 2006 (Jiri Tlusty) .. Rask and Steen were drafted by Barry Trapp as Director of Amateur Scouting for Toronto..

JFJ replaced Trapp just before the 2006 entry draft, So Biggs and anyone taken 2006-2014 entry drafts are the ones to evaluate Morrison under for results.

Then this just made the decision of firing him a lot easier in my mind. With the amount of resources we have at our disposal, we should definitely be able to find a better scouting director. Almost a decade has passed and not much to show for it. Despite getting a few good players, there isnt much to convince me Morrisson should be leading the ship for the next decade. This Biggs pick just highlights how terribly "off" our scouting team is.

Now that its been a few years after the Biggs draft, I'd really like to hear another explanation from Morrisson on why they felt comfortable trading away two picks for Biggs.

 

[TieClark]

Gauthier is a helluva lot better than Biggs.

No reason to compare them, at all.

Time to give up the dream, folks.

Biggs is not gonna make it.

He isn't even good enough for the ahl.

Don't be like habs fans, who are still holding out hope for mccarron. Who is actually worse than biggs.

Your logic just doesn't make sense. You have Biggs who scored about a PPG in the OHL with solid 2-way play who struggled in his first year of the AHL.... he's done according to you.

Then you have Gauthier who scores about a PPG in the QMJHL and has yet to play a pro level game but he's much better according to you.

#ZekeLogic

 

[Mess]

Then this just made the decision of firing him a lot easier in my mind. With the amount of resources we have at our disposal, we should definitely be able to find a better scouting director. Almost a decade has passed and not much to show for it. Despite getting a few good players, there isnt much to convince me Morrisson should be leading the ship for the next decade. This Biggs pick just highlights how terribly "off" our scouting team is.

Now that its been a few years after the Biggs draft, I'd really like to hear another explanation from Morrisson on why they felt comfortable trading away two picks for Biggs.

Toronto I believe have the NHL's largest scouting staff and the results of finding talent for the Leafs has been minimal outside top 10 picks Kadri and Rielly.

Biggs is an example of investing 2 X high picks to move up to take him and that makes the results even more disappointing.

While players drafted after Biggs like Saad and Jenner are developing at the NHL level, Biggs is only a marginal AHLer at this point.. Saad and Jenner were playing in last years NHL playoffs while Biggs dressed for only 3 AHL playoff games.

What might make this pick even more disappointing still is that the 2 picks Leafs traded 30th (Rickard Rakell) and 39th (Goalie John Gibson) both played for Anaheim in the playoffs last year.. Gibson's play actually allowed Anaheim to let Joan Hiller leave as UFA.

So why are teams picking later in the draft outperforming the Leafs?

 

[Atomos2]

Toronto I believe have the NHL's largest scouting staff and the results of finding talent for the Leafs has been minimal outside top 10 picks Kadri and Rielly.

Biggs is an example of investing 2 X high picks to move up to take him and that makes the results even more disappointing.

While players drafted after Biggs like Saad and Jenner are developing at the NHL level, Biggs is only a marginal AHLer at this point.. Saad and Jenner were playing in last years NHL playoffs while Biggs dressed for only 3 AHL playoff games.

What might make this pick even more disappointing still is that the 2 picks Leafs traded 30th (Rickard Rakell) and 39th (Goalie John Gibson) both played for Anaheim in the playoffs last year.. Gibson's play actually allowed Anaheim to let Joan Hiller leave as UFA.

So why are teams picking later in the draft outperforming the Leafs?

These are the exact questions I'd be asking Morrisson during his final exit meeting if I was Shanahan. Obviously with prospects the "give em time" scenario always pops up, but I say the key is to find the best player available. Does anyone honestly believe Biggs will be better than Saad, Jenner, Rakell, Gibson in the future? Rattie?

We traded away two picks for this guy. Two of them. The fact that we can only hope for mediocre results only highlights what an awful pick it was compared to some of the others on the board at the time. Biggs might end up a useful player which is fine, but no amount of time is gonna warrant trading away two picks for him. Especially considering what happened with those two picks. Its unbelievable that this could happen with the amount of resources we have.

 

[613Leafer]

Expectations were way too high to begin with. He never showed the puck skills to expect a top 6 forward out of him prior to bring drafted. Realistically, he was always a projected bottom 6 guy, which is what he still projects as.

 

[sniper81]

Yeah, no.

you probably watched Mccaron maybe once this year? The fact that Biggs put up 7 goals in very, very limited ice time has to be accounted for.

 

[KLM-Line]

In essence if you get a guy like Biggs in the 3rd round or later it is a win situation. The fact we picked him in the first round (+trade up) makes this choice as close to a bust as it gets.

Hindsight might be 20/20 and yes he was slotted to go in the first round but so far he hasn't realized the potential which made people believe he is ranked rightfully there which would be an elite 3rd line center. In the end thats what counts and the Leafs should be considered lucky if he even makes the NHL at this point in time ... as a solid 4th liner that is.

No matter the weakness of a draft year that is a disappointment for any 1st round selection and the scouting staff as well the GM are more at fault here than Biggs himself as they obviously misjudged his talent.

 

[agropop]

Boone Jenner would look really good in our lineup right now, whiffing on him twice kinda stings, hindsight being what it is...

 

[sniper81]

Boone Jenner would look really good in our lineup right now, whiffing on him twice kinda stings, hindsight being what it is...

Watched pretty much every one of his games in Oshawa, had him rated around 20.... it hurts. Apparently teams just didnt think he would be able to skate at the next level.

 

[Judas Tavares]

The biggest thing about this draft was after pretty much the top 10, 11-50 was basically ranked the same and could be interchangeable. In that case, you take more stabs in that area instead of less. Hopefully Percy, Leivo and Nilsson salvage that draft. Hey, if Percy and Leivo do well, we can say we fleeced the Flyers in the Versteeg deal!

 

[bluewhiteblue]

Biggs will play in the NHL as a fourth-liner who can skate, hit and put up 15 to 20 points a season. Those are his tangibles. Hopefully his impact will be made through the intangibles - hits or points that are turning points in a game. I'll take a Biggs who scores a garbage goal that wins a playoff game over a Biggs that puts up 30 to 40 points in a regular season. There's no point in being disappointed in this draft pick until he's had an opportunity to play in a playoff series with the Leafs. That will be, IMO, the best measurement of his impact, or lack thereof.

 

[ConnorTO]

Biggs is gotta rack up those points in the AHL

he is basically a Broll kinda player

 

[Menzinger]

Your logic just doesn't make sense. You have Biggs who scored about a PPG in the OHL with solid 2-way play who struggled in his first year of the AHL.... he's done according to you.

Then you have Gauthier who scores about a PPG in the QMJHL and has yet to play a pro level game but he's much better according to you.

#ZekeLogic

Not quite.

Biggs put up 53 points in 60 games as a 19 year old.

Gauthier put up ppg (60 points in 62 games) as a 17 year old. Fair to say that Gauthier's been more impressive so far.

 

[TieClark]

Not quite.

Biggs put up 53 points in 60 games as a 19 year old.

Gauthier put up ppg (60 points in 62 games) as a 17 year old. Fair to say that Gauthier's been more impressive so far.

That's not what was said though. What was said was Biggs is already a bust and Gauthier isn't. Based on a PPG difference of .08 while 1 year younger.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

These are the exact questions I'd be asking Morrisson during his final exit meeting if I was Shanahan. Obviously with prospects the "give em time" scenario always pops up, but I say the key is to find the best player available. Does anyone honestly believe Biggs will be better than Saad, Jenner, Rakell, Gibson in the future? Rattie?

We traded away two picks for this guy. Two of them. The fact that we can only hope for mediocre results only highlights what an awful pick it was compared to some of the others on the board at the time. Biggs might end up a useful player which is fine, but no amount of time is gonna warrant trading away two picks for him. Especially considering what happened with those two picks. Its unbelievable that this could happen with the amount of resources we have.

Didn't we just trade our first round pick and our second round pick? We traded up, moving our first and our second for a higher first. You keep making it sound like we gave up 2 additional picks to get him. We would have had one extra prospect had we not traded for him, you make it sound like two extra assets were lost. I've never heard of moving up in the first round by trading one draft pick, so while I disagree with the trade in hindsight, it's not as big of catastrophe as you keep making it out to be.

A few posters keep bringing up Jenner and Saad as if there was a guarentee we would have drafted one of them had we not traded up for the cursed Tyler Biggs.

 

[Atomos2]

Didn't we just trade our first round pick and our second round pick? We traded up, moving our first and our second for a higher first. You keep making it sound like we gave up 2 additional picks to get him. We would have had one extra prospect had we not traded for him, you make it sound like two extra assets were lost. I've never heard of moving up in the first round by trading one draft pick, so while I disagree with the trade in hindsight, it's not as big of catastrophe as you keep making it out to be.

A few posters keep bringing up Jenner and Saad as if there was a guarentee we would have drafted one of them had we not traded up for the cursed Tyler Biggs.

The problem was whiffing on both picks. Essentially there was a lot of depth in that area and many players around that position with similar and now we know better talent. The error comes from the judgement that this player was worth taking over two others at a similar position. To have talent scouts that not only make that type of error in talent assessment but to also comes up and take a player like Biggs in that scenario is the frustrating part.

And its not like Morrisson doesn't have any say in Burke trading away picks. In the Behind the draft segment in the Rielly draft, Burke asked him if it was worth trading up to the 4th overall spot with Snow to get Rielly. He flat out said no. Just no. It pisses me off that that was all he could have said in the 2011 draft to get a better opportunity for a more impactful player.