Two sides: Close as they have ever been

[Timmy]

so then work hard, grow your skills and become a hockey players, these guys did and have every right to get the salaries

The "right" to make a salary should be on par with the "right" to make a profit and keep the league in existence. If there is no "right" to make a profit (and there isn't), then a hockey player does not have a "right" to earn a salary. He has a "right" to negotiate individually for a contract, and collectively for a system, but not a "right" to earn a salary.

 

[blitzkriegs]

I guess its reasonable for you to expect human beings to take 85% pay cuts to get to take home table scraps or change their occupation ..

I love to see the look on your face when your boss tells you that he is cutting your salary by even 24% .. Then if McDonalds will not employ you I guess you could always go to Burger King ...

Hey Sherlock, take a look at the US Airline Industry. Seems to be those 'unions' are taking concessions left and right just to stay EMPLOYED and for the BENEFIT of the BUSINESS and FUTURE EMPLOYMENT. For example, you have pilots who used to make $160,000-200,000 per year now making $90,000 with LESS job security and a significant chunk into their benefits.

Seriously, please explain your current level of education. Because a large majority of your posts display a clear lack of business maturity and understanding of the business world. To me, you haven't 'experienced' the working world where decisions that truly effect ones livelihood are made.

Making comparisons of your service industry counter job are not in play here. People that are employed in those jobs, mainly young-uns, do not have the same financial pressures of say 10 year employee of McD's as a marketing manager. Most likely, that person has education debt, mortgage, car payments, taxes, normal monthly bills, insurance, kids, etc. THAT is real world. This person would more than likely attempt to find another job IF faced with a 24% reduction from his current company. However, if all the other jobs are paying less or are not available, you bet your hand that this person would accept the 24% to stay gainfully employed and curtail their personal spending habits. Ever hear of the Defense industry crash in Long Island in the late 80's or in LA? Or the Tech crash in SF/SJ/SV in the late 90's? You would be amazed how many people lost high paying jobs, out of work for months/years because the industry changed, and the sacrifices people make to stay afloat. I guarantee you that you DO NOT want to face that in your life.

Seems to me that the concessions being asked of high 6 figure/7 figure athletes are nominal to the everyday white/blue collar worker that support those salaries...

 

[Levitate]

i don't think i'd compare the NHL to the airline companies. though the economic system definatly needed to change in the NHL, it doesn't seem like it was in immediate danger of falling apart. i'm sure i'll get flamed for saying that but it's not like the NHL was going to completely collapse on itself if it went one more month under the old CBA or something

 

[blitzkriegs]

i don't think i'd compare the NHL to the airline companies. though the economic system definatly needed to change in the NHL, it doesn't seem like it was in immediate danger of falling apart. i'm sure i'll get flamed for saying that but it's not like the NHL was going to completely collapse on itself if it went one more month under the old CBA or something

The comparison is made, not for the state of the industry comparison, but how sometimes, unfortunately or not, employees make concessions for the benefit of stability. Same here.

 

[Donnie D]

Take it for what it is but the guys at Hockeybird.com have two sources that said a deal is expected very soon and its close. They NEVER report rumours so you know thats not their thing.

They said the confirmation of the 1st source comes from "the horses mouth".

If it from someone directly involved in these negotiations wouldn't it be more appropriate for the confirmation to come from "the horse's ass?"

 

[LordHelmet]

I know I already posted to this effect, but I just realized
If you say "As close as they have ever been"
Isn't that exactly the same as saying " No closer than they have ever
been?"

If it from someone directly involved in these negotiations wouldn't it be more appropriate for the confirmation to come from "the horse's ass?"

for two excellent posts!

 

[Boltsfan2029]

They will be able to offer players things that have a non-monetary value.

Such as?

 

[Timmy]

Such as?

Front teeth.

 

[Icey]

Such as?

A brand new practice facility instead with unlimited use instead of a run down sheet of ice.

A state with no state income tax

A place with a low cost of living.

If the owner also owns a baseball or basketball team, access to games for him and his family.

Access to top schools

There are all kinds of things that are worth more than money. Things that very well could be more important than the almighty $$$.

 

[Timmy]

Access to top schools

Wouldn't the players become a threat to their employers if they became educated?

 

[Icey]

Wouldn't the players become a threat to their employers if they became educated?

I don't know. There are quite a few NHL players with degrees from Ivy League schools.

But.....for their children

 

[Boltsfan2029]

A brand new practice facility instead with unlimited use instead of a run down sheet of ice.

A state with no state income tax

A place with a low cost of living.

If the owner also owns a baseball or basketball team, access to games for him and his family.

Access to top schools

There are all kinds of things that are worth more than money. Things that very well could be more important than the almighty $$$.

Gotcha. I thought you meant perks for the players as opposed to the benefits of living in the area.

We have a lot of the above in Florida, along with gorgeous weather, nice beaches and lots of golf courses!

 

[Drury_Sakic]

The "right" to make a salary should be on par with the "right" to make a profit and keep the league in existence. If there is no "right" to make a profit (and there isn't), then a hockey player does not have a "right" to earn a salary. He has a "right" to negotiate individually for a contract, and collectively for a system, but not a "right" to earn a salary.

Not that I am against some sort of "safty net"...

but... erh.. ah.... I think the owners have 100% of the "right" to make a profit in the old CBA.... and 100% of the needed ablity... Just a few owners and some bad judgment calls made it 100% improbable..




A person has a right to get paid whatever the heck he wants.. just as a person has the right to profit whatever the heck he wants.....

BUT....

A person is not going to always get what he wants to be paid.. just as a person is not going to profit what he wants to...

 

[HockeyMan9]

A brand new practice facility instead with unlimited use instead of a run down sheet of ice.

A state with no state income tax

A place with a low cost of living.

If the owner also owns a baseball or basketball team, access to games for him and his family.

Access to top schools

There are all kinds of things that are worth more than money. Things that very well could be more important than the almighty $$$.

So you're saying Columbus already has an advantage over most other teams?

-Exceptional practice facility attached to Nationwide Arena (only attached practice rink in the league)

-Governor is dramatically cutting income tax

-Majority owner also owns a very exclusive golf course, we also have Muirfield Village, which will host the Memorial tournament here in a week and a half, it will be all over ESPN if you mistakenly tune in.

-Only team in the NHL with and exclusive private jet (Detriot shares one with the Pistons).

So how is this supposed to benefit the large market teams, every city has good things to offer.

 

[Donnie D]

A brand new practice facility instead with unlimited use instead of a run down sheet of ice.

A state with no state income tax

A place with a low cost of living.

If the owner also owns a baseball or basketball team, access to games for him and his family.

Access to top schools

I thought that you were going to propose that all the teams relocate to Florida until I got to that last one.

 

[Icey]

So you're saying Columbus already has an advantage over most other teams?

-Exceptional practice facility attached to Nationwide Arena (only attached practice rink in the league)

-Governor is dramatically cutting income tax

-Majority owner also owns a very exclusive golf course, we also have Muirfield Village, which will host the Memorial tournament here in a week and a half, it will be all over ESPN if you mistakenly tune in.

-Only team in the NHL with and exclusive private jet (Detriot shares one with the Pistons).

So how is this supposed to benefit the large market teams, every city has good things to offer.

Because they can afford things like you mentioned. Columbus actually has more money that most realize. Do you not think the private jet and practice facility did not help lure Todd Marchment there two seasons ago? There are not many players that want out of Columbus. They are a young team, but give them a few more seasons and they will be considered a big market team. Do you think Edmonton is awaiting the delivery of its private jet?

Not every NHL city has something to lure players with. Some do and some have more than others. Players do look at other things than the paycheck. Florida and Dallas are attractive places for them in that there is no state income tax. How many want to go play in Pittsburgh with a beat up old arena like they have? Wouldn't you rather play in Phoenix, Columbus Philadelphia where you have a new arena?

A lot of times when you listen to players say why they signed with a particular team they mention the non-monetary items rather then the bucks the team threw at them. I just think the big market teams have a heads up in the department. Just my opinion.

 

[GSC2k2*]

so then work hard, grow your skills and become a hockey players, these guys did and have every right to get the salaries

Man, I've never heard that argument. What an interesting angle! Hmm, that really gives us all something to think about. Thank you so much for bringing such a fresh viewpoint to the discussion.

 

[mr gib]

so then work hard, grow your skills and become a hockey players, these guys did and have every right to get the salaries

naive but... - mick those 200 dollar tickets - jeez - ( 1500 - 3000 p scalp tix for champions league final )

 

[quat]

Because they can afford things like you mentioned. Columbus actually has more money that most realize. Do you not think the private jet and practice facility did not help lure Todd Marchment there two seasons ago? There are not many players that want out of Columbus. They are a young team, but give them a few more seasons and they will be considered a big market team. Do you think Edmonton is awaiting the delivery of its private jet?

Not every NHL city has something to lure players with. Some do and some have more than others. Players do look at other things than the paycheck. Florida and Dallas are attractive places for them in that there is no state income tax. How many want to go play in Pittsburgh with a beat up old arena like they have? Wouldn't you rather play in Phoenix, Columbus Philadelphia where you have a new arena?

A lot of times when you listen to players say why they signed with a particular team they mention the non-monetary items rather then the bucks the team threw at them. I just think the big market teams have a heads up in the department. Just my opinion.

or could it be the five year, grossly overpaid salary? Nawwwww... I can't name one player (other than Bobby Hull), that said he chose a team because of the money.

I agree there are times (rare though they may be, I certainly won't criticize a player for taking the biggest check), when a player chooses a team offering a slightly smaller salary, but Todd Marchant is the most unlikely candidate for that roll.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

So you're saying Columbus already has an advantage over most other teams?

-Exceptional practice facility attached to Nationwide Arena (only attached practice rink in the league)

-Governor is dramatically cutting income tax

-Majority owner also owns a very exclusive golf course, we also have Muirfield Village, which will host the Memorial tournament here in a week and a half, it will be all over ESPN if you mistakenly tune in.

-Only team in the NHL with and exclusive private jet (Detriot shares one with the Pistons).

So how is this supposed to benefit the large market teams, every city has good things to offer.

yup, as evidenced by the # of free agents who agreed to sign in CLB. doesnt seem to me that CLB benefited much from those silly signings, but they sure showed the ability to do it.

maybe the owner would have made more money than Jody Shelly (the GM claims he didnt) if he didnt let his GM sign Lachance, Richardson, Cassels, Letowski, and Marchant to stupid contracts.

so really, why do you all want your teams to sign overpaid, overaged crap players ? careful what you envy, you just might get your wish

dr

 

[CGG]

Oh, no doubt that is true, I never would say otherwise. Most fans who support that owners in this have no delusions that this is about helping competitive balance other than tangentially. Before WWI england and france hated one another. They pretty much did during the war and after too. They merely had mutual goals collide . . .stopping Germany . . .that outweighed all of that. Same here, Owners and Fans merely seem to have a collision of mutual interests, but that does not mean that the fans believe that the owners care more about them than the players do, or see us in any other way than cash cows.

As for the other points, let us say for arguments sake that the owners get 54% of revenues going to salary, linked to revenues and an initial cap of even $35 million, floor $25 million. Why would that lead to friction next CBA necessarily? If revenues don't grow, players will be in no position to ask for anything. If they do grow, 54% of $2.1 billion, or hopefully much more, will still mean great salaries, and again they may not want to upset the apple cart if it was proving to be working, the sport growing.

Don't agree with that part. Most educated fans, sure. But there's a whole whack of people out there who think that (1) this is a strike (2) the players are asking for more money (3) ticket prices will go down because salaries go down (4) 75% is too much and 54% is THE only possible solution (5) Gary Bettman is a saint. A lot of this is either from ignorance or from mis-information supported by the NHL side. Bettman himself keeps saying this is about the small market teams, levelling the playing field, and even started to say that ticket prices would be lower. The NHL is doing much better on the PR side than the players, and a lot of "casual" fans only hear that stuff, then throw their support behind the owners because the players are "greedy" and "overpaid".

If they do get the 54% thing, even if the whole world agrees that 54% of $2.1 billion is fair, there's a problem once revenues go up. I would think the players would be less inclined to agree that 54% of $3 billion is just as fair when all other leagues make more than that as a percentage. Or, even if they don't argue the percentage, other items such as QO's and arbitration and ELS that they are going to get hammered on this time around, the players would be asking for concessions down the road to make the 54% a little more livable.

 

[SENSible1*]

Don't agree with that part. Most educated fans, sure. But there's a whole whack of people out there who think that (1) this is a strike (2) the players are asking for more money (3) ticket prices will go down because salaries go down (4) 75% is too much and 54% is THE only possible solution (5) Gary Bettman is a saint. A lot of this is either from ignorance or from mis-information supported by the NHL side. Bettman himself keeps saying this is about the small market teams, levelling the playing field, and even started to say that ticket prices would be lower. The NHL is doing much better on the PR side than the players, and a lot of "casual" fans only hear that stuff, then throw their support behind the owners because the players are "greedy" and "overpaid".

I always get a kick out of the fact that PA supporters get their pants in a knot if anyone suggests that hockey players as a group aren't the best educated or informed, yet think nothing of portratying the vast majority of fans as ignorant to the basic facts of this dispute.

If they do get the 54% thing, even if the whole world agrees that 54% of $2.1 billion is fair, there's a problem once revenues go up. I would think the players would be less inclined to agree that 54% of $3 billion is just as fair when all other leagues make more than that as a percentage. Or, even if they don't argue the percentage, other items such as QO's and arbitration and ELS that they are going to get hammered on this time around, the players would be asking for concessions down the road to make the 54% a little more livable.

The PA has been offered 54% PLUS PROFIT SHARING. That would ensure their % take rose as revenues climbed (assuming other fixed cost remained somewhat constant)

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

Not every NHL city has something to lure players with. Some do and some have more than others. Players do look at other things than the paycheck. Florida and Dallas are attractive places for them in that there is no state income tax. How many want to go play in Pittsburgh with a beat up old arena like they have? Wouldn't you rather play in Phoenix, Columbus Philadelphia where you have a new arena?

Having lived on both sides of the border as well as in multiple states I can call BS on the tax issue. The whole "personal income tax" thing is a scam. I thought it was going to be beneficial when I moved to Florida until I saw how they tax the hell out of you in other ways. I paid four times what I do in property tax in Florida as to what I do in Arizona. There are more hidden taxes and fees for anything you do in Florida than anywhere I've ever been. You get nickle and dimed to death in Florida because everything is purchase oriented so they can screw the snowbirds and tourists. It's not much different in Arizona either, where they hit for you do. Personally, I made more money and was taxed less living in Alberta than anywhere else I've been. I took a pretty substantial hit to chase the sunshine and a little white ball.

As for the arena, if you're being over-paid to play, who cares where you play? For an extra million a season most of these guys would play in your backyard rink and change in the garage. They are modern day mercaneries and will go where the green is for the most part, conditions be damned.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

If they do get the 54% thing, even if the whole world agrees that 54% of $2.1 billion is fair, there's a problem once revenues go up. I would think the players would be less inclined to agree that 54% of $3 billion is just as fair when all other leagues make more than that as a percentage. Or, even if they don't argue the percentage, other items such as QO's and arbitration and ELS that they are going to get hammered on this time around, the players would be asking for concessions down the road to make the 54% a little more livable.

WTF??? So the players will be okay with 54% of $2.1 billion, but won't be happy with 54% of $3 billion dollars? What is the difference? They get 54% of both. It's called linkage and is the fairest way of distributing the wealth. Why, because reveunes go up, should the players get a bigger chunk? Listening to you pro-PA types its not the player's responsibility to grow the game, so why should they benefit when the game grows and the revenues grow with it? Shouldn't the ones who grow the game get the bountry from their efforts? If the players are not participating in this growth, and are not responsible for it, why should they get an increase in their share?

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

so really, why do you all want your teams to sign overpaid, overaged crap players ? careful what you envy, you just might get your wish

dr

I thought you were talking about the Toronto Maple Leafs for a second there!