Two sides: Close as they have ever been

[chiavsfan]

Winnepeg Sun Story:

A well-placed league source told the Ottawa Sun yesterday that discussions between the owners and players have progressed to the "closest they've ever been" but cautioned there's plenty of work to do. A carefully worded neutral message was e-mailed to the players by the union this week after both sides spoke of making progress late last week. It included an update from executive director Bob Goodenow, indicating the league will not move off its stance of a 54% link to revenues.

In Paul Harvey terms..."The Rest of the story..." can be found here:
Winnepeg Sun

Click to read more...

 

[SENSible1*]

A more complete version of the story can be found at this link.

A key passage notes the pushing of Goodenow to the periphery and his attempt to squash the deal.

The belief is the NHL and union will settle on a floating cap based on league revenues. Union boss Bob Goodenow sent a message to the players on their website Monday indicating the league will not move off its stance of a 54% link to revenues.

Not only did Goodenow tell the players he didn't believe this kind of concept was going to work, he told the players to contact him personally if they wanted more information. But there is talk NHLPA president Trevor Linden and past president Mike Gartner are playing more active roles in the negotiations.

 

[Morbo]

A key passage notes the pushing of Goodenow to the periphery.

It does?

 

[SENSible1*]

It does?

Note that Goodenow is trying to get his negative message out to the players and have them contact him DIRECTLY.

Note "But there is talk NHLPA president Trevor Linden and past president Mike Gartner are playing more active roles in the negotiations." (More active than Goodeneow.)

 

[shakes]

Note that Goodenow is trying to get his negative message out to the players and have them contact him DIRECTLY.

Note "But there is talk NHLPA president Trevor Linden and past president Mike Gartner are playing more active roles in the negotiations." (More active than Goodeneow.)

OR.. more active than before, not necessarliy more than Goodenow

 

[SENSible1*]

OR.. more active than before, not necessarliy more than Goodenow

It could be interpreted that way and is, after all, only a rumour in the first place, but the 1st interpretation does coincide with other sources who have suggested a change in the power structure on the PA's side.

Even if you assume the second interpretation, the implication is that Goodenow is not alone in steering the ship and that development bodes well for a settlement.

 

[WC Handy*]

Not only did Goodenow tell the players he didn't believe this kind of concept was going to work

If Goodenow believes that linkage is a concept that is not going to work, then we are no where near close to a deal.

 

[SENSible1*]

If Goodenow believes that linkage is a concept that is not going to work, then we are no where near close to a deal.

Only if you assume that Goodenow still has the power to squash a deal that other important members of the PA think is workable.

 

[WC Handy*]

Only if you assume that Goodenow still has the power to squash a deal that other important members of the PA think is workable.

He can obviously get fired at any point... I guess the question is what was the point of the message?

Was the message intended to report that things aren't as close as they appear?

Or, was the message actually an attempt to get support to show the players who are supposedly running the negotiations right now that they're not doing what the union wants?

 

[Mess]

It could be interpreted that way and is, after all, only a rumour in the first place, but the 1st interpretation does coincide with other sources who have suggested a change in the power structure on the PA's side.

Even if you assume the second interpretation, the implication is that Goodenow is not alone in steering the ship and that development bodes well for a settlement.

Goodenow is doing exactly his job ..

He is hired by them ... He is telling them that the NHL is steadfast in its wish for 54%..

He is informing the NHLPA of the current negotiations status, and while he doesn't support it, players are free to call him and talk about it. However they have free will and if the players are ready to say .."Well if that's all we can get or if that is the best deal then they could move forward with a vote". That is the player choice at any time ..

Goodenow can't prevent it, all he can do is say he doesn't support it, which as a high priced consultant, he is allowed to and a position he is paid to do and give his honest expert advice and opinion, after all he is highly educated in this area and they are only dumb hockey players. If the committee bring it to a vote and it passes then the record will show that FOREVER , should the players complain in the future that they should not blame Goodenow as he was the only one that didn't approve it .. This is Goodenow CYA and nothing more.

The Gartner, Linden taking an active role part is pure speculation, however if you consider that both are attending the financial meetings last week and this week and Goodenow is not, then that certainly means they are more involved in that respect.

You and your conspiracy theories .. This is standard negotiating practices..

 

[octopi]

Two sides closer than they've ever been...yeah, right. Its not possible to measure the distance between two objects already infinatly far apart. I say we just give everybody light sabres and let things work themselves out.

 

[Mess]

Two sides closer than they've ever been...yeah, right. Its not possible to measure the distance between two objects already infinatly far apart. I say we just give everybody light sabres and let things work themselves out.

I thought similar when I read the "Closer then they have ever been" quote.

It reminded me of that one where someone is looking for their misplaced car keys or something and they say " I bet you its going to be in the last place I look" ..

 

[blamebettman*]

Goodenow is doing exactly his job ..

He is hired by them ... He is telling them that the NHL is steadfast in its wish for 54%..

He is informing the NHLPA of the current negotiations status, and while he doesn't support it, players are free to call him and talk about it. However they have free will and if the players are ready to say .."Well if that's all we can get or if that is the best deal then they could move forward with a vote". That is the player choice at any time ..

Goodenow can't prevent it, all he can do is say he doesn't support it, which as a high priced consultant, he is allowed to and a position he is paid to do and give his honest expert advice and opinion, after all he is highly educated in this area and they are only dumb hockey players. If the committee bring it to a vote and it passes then the record will show that FOREVER , should the players complain in the future that they should not blame Goodenow as he was the only one that didn't approve it .. This is Goodenow CYA and nothing more.

The Gartner, Linden taking an active role part is pure speculation, however if you consider that both are attending the financial meetings last week and this week and Goodenow is not, then that certainly means they are more involved in that respect.

You and your conspiracy theories .. This is standard negotiating practices..

and bettman isn't attending either, interesting that you don't hear any conspiracy theories about the NHL hardliners being pushed to the wayside, because he certainly is their leader

 

[vopatsrash]

A more complete version of the story can be found at this link.

A key passage notes the pushing of Goodenow to the periphery and his attempt to squash the deal.

Beware of this article...the wording used is eerily familiar.

Either Bruce Garrioch is Eklund, Bruce Garrioch's source is Eklund's website and this article is full of crap, or Eklund actually has some sources....

Ottawa Sun on 5/26/05
"Union boss Bob Goodenow sent a message to the players on their website Monday indicating the league will not move off its stance of a 54% link to revenues." and "he told the players to contact him personally if they wanted more information."

Eklund on 5/24/05
"...according to this source, "Bob did say the NHL was sticking to its 54% number, but the tone was neither negative or positive." and "He has also said players should call him to get a better understanding."

Ottawa Sun on 5/26/05
"But there is talk NHLPA president Trevor Linden and past president Mike Gartner are playing more active roles in the negotiations."

Eklund on 5/24/05
"To that point, it is more and more evident that Trevor Linden is in charge, that's why last weeks meetings lasted as long as they did....The new CBA will have the signatures of Trevor Linden and Ted Saskin or Mike Gartner."

Ottawa Sun on 5/26/05
"There's also a rumour circulating that Red Wings winger Brendan Shanahan, who formed a committee to make improvments to the game, has also been working behind the scenes to play a central role in getting the two sides to go in the same direction."

Eklund on 5/23/05
"It has also been told to me that Brendan Shanahan is playing a much larger role in the current talks over the last few sessions...."

Ottawa Sun on 5/26
"One area where the players might try to gain ground is in unrestricted free agency. There's talk the two sides were discussing moving the age of UFAs to 30 next season and then scaling it back to 28 over the course of four years."

Eklund on 5/25
"The PA would not like a sudden drop in FA. Such a drop would the flood the market in the upcoming months prior to the 05-06 season...Look for a gradual fall...30 this season, 29 next, then 28 for the duration"

Ottawa Sun on 5/26
"A well-placed league source told the Sun yesterday that talks between the NHL and NHLPA have progressed to the point they're "closest they've ever been," but cautioned there's plenty of work to do."

Eklund on 5/22
"There is still much work to do but rumor is they are over the hump and down to the give and take game."

 

[octopi]

I thought similar when I read the "Closer then they have ever been" quote.

It reminded me of that one where someone is looking for their misplaced car keys or something and they say " I bet you its going to be in the last place I look" ..

No doubt. And its not like we've had any shortage of hearing about this kind of thing. It seems every other week the NHL and PA are in the sports news.As the saying goes, "How can I miss them, when they won't go away?"

 

[Jester]

Goodenow is doing exactly his job ..

if you call losing your employer(s) 1.2 billion in pay doing your job... personally i call that completely screwing the pooch on your job, but maybe i'm just naive. i mean, what's 20% or so of your potential earnings at the only skill you have in life? i'm sure they'll make that up under the next "best deal" that goodenow can strike when NHL revenue is down by 1/3 and he's been forced to agree to a linkage deal.

 

[Mess]

No doubt. And its not like we've had any shortage of hearing about this kind of thing. It seems every other week the NHL and PA are in the sports news.As the saying goes, "How can I miss them, when they won't go away?"

Well at least they are negotiating and thats a good thing .. I suppose that makes the quote true I guess .. If you are talking your closer then if you are not ..

Who knows the exact seating arangment in the meetings ..

Perhaps for harmony they have it set up

Linden .. Daly....Gartner....Jacobs....Saskin....Hotchkiss ..Guerin around the table ..

 

[ti-vite]

Yes, but they are doing this for the young guys(!), for the futur players

 

[SENSible1*]

Goodenow is doing exactly his job ..

He is hired by them ... He is telling them that the NHL is steadfast in its wish for 54%..

He is informing the NHLPA of the current negotiations status, and while he doesn't support it, players are free to call him and talk about it. However they have free will and if the players are ready to say .."Well if that's all we can get or if that is the best deal then they could move forward with a vote". That is the player choice at any time ..

Goodenow can't prevent it, all he can do is say he doesn't support it, which as a high priced consultant, he is allowed to and a position he is paid to do and give his
honest expert advice and opinion, after all he is highly educated in this area and they are only dumb hockey players. If the committee bring it to a vote and it passes then the record will show that FOREVER , should the players complain in the future that they should not blame Goodenow as he was the only one that didn't approve it .. This is Goodenow CYA and nothing more.

The Gartner, Linden taking an active role part is pure speculation, however if you consider that both are attending the financial meetings last week and this week and Goodenow is not, then that certainly means they are more involved in that respect.

In general, I agree with your assessment. However, if Goody fails to sign off on the deal then I doubt the PA will be paying for his "expertise" much longer.

You and your conspiracy theories .. This is standard negotiating practices..

No conspiracy theory. Just making logical inferences from rumours that are being reported.

Also, is also standard practise to replace your cheif negotiator once a deal is signed if he is that out of step with the wishes of his constituents.

 

[Larionov]

There is no question that Gartner is a moderate, and will be looking to make a deal. Linden will simply be reflecting the views of the membership -- if the players are getting antsy, Linden will be hearing about that, and it will influence how he bargains.

Goodenow is in a tough spot, but one of his own making. He was convinced history would repeat itself, and that the League would ultimately cave in time to save the season. He gambled on ownership dividing, and when they didn't he failed to leave himself with an exit strategy. In order to save face, and perhaps because he is just so philosophically opposed to linkage and a cap, he is having to let others craft an exit strategy for the 'PA.

The story of this lockout has been the resolve of the owners to remain united. Out of 30 teams, 29 have stayed onside, with only the Leafs going offside and asking for peace at any price. The 'PA thought for sure that others like the Rangers, Flyers, Red Wings, etc. would join them, but they didn't. It's never a good idea to underestimate your opponents, and that is precisely what Goodenow did.

 

[LordHelmet]

if you call losing your employer(s) 1.2 billion in pay doing your job... personally i call that completely screwing the pooch on your job, but maybe i'm just naive. i mean, what's 20% or so of your potential earnings at the only skill you have in life? i'm sure they'll make that up under the next "best deal" that goodenow can strike when NHL revenue is down by 1/3 and he's been forced to agree to a linkage deal.

And what's your definition of 'doing his job'? Signing the first piece of paper the NHL puts in front of him?

 

[LordHelmet]

Beware of this article...the wording used is eerily familiar.

Either Bruce Garrioch is Eklund, Bruce Garrioch's source is Eklund's website and this article is full of crap, or Eklund actually has some sources....

Ottawa Sun on 5/26/05
...
Eklund on 5/24/05
...

and so on..

Freaking Eklund. Someone around here needs to start up a website..

www.eklundisafraud.com

Good work vop.. I'm now taking this story with a boulder-sized grain of salt..

 

[Digger12]

I would have to agree with Shakes...let's not read from the article more than what's really there.

That being said, IMO negotiations have come to a point where both sides would have a very difficult time backing out of them and doing that "we're back to square 1" thing again. Too many hours spent, too similar in viewpoints at this juncture.

 

[SENSible1*]

There is no question that Gartner is a moderate, and will be looking to make a deal. Linden will simply be reflecting the views of the membership -- if the players are getting antsy, Linden will be hearing about that, and it will influence how he bargains.

Goodenow is in a tough spot, but one of his own making. He was convinced history would repeat itself, and that the League would ultimately cave in time to save the season. He gambled on ownership dividing, and when they didn't he failed to leave himself with an exit strategy. In order to save face, and perhaps because he is just so philosophically opposed to linkage and a cap, he is having to let others craft an exit strategy for the 'PA.

The story of this lockout has been the resolve of the owners to remain united. Out of 30 teams, 29 have stayed onside, with only the Leafs going offside and asking for peace at any price. The 'PA thought for sure that others like the Rangers, Flyers, Red Wings, etc. would join them, but they didn't. It's never a good idea to underestimate your opponents, and that is precisely what Goodenow did.

Spot on.

For his massive and costly mistake (for his members) Goody will be shown the door. Too bad the players' agents were muzzled throughout the process. The more astute dealmakers from amoung their ranks would have correctly read the power imbalance and put pressure on Bob much earlier in the process to make a deal or get out of the way and let those willing to do so take over. Hopefully the stupidity of having the PA certify agents will be addressed with the process being moved to a nuetral party like the governing body for hockey in each country.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

I'm sick of all these "sources". Unless it's on TSN.ca or Bob McKenzie him self is saying it, I take it with a major grain of salt, and pretty much ignore it.

Not that this story is impossible to be true, but i'm just kind of tired of all the sources saying different things, there never seems to be a real consensus among these "sources"

Heck, if I believed all the sources, I would be sitting by my T.V. every night watching ESPN/ESPN 2 wondering why the playoffs aren't on T.V. since the "sources" said that a deal was done at a 45 million cap on the hockey news and ESPN news.