Trevor Timmins discussion, when does he get blamed?

[Nynja*]

2008 - We don't pick until 58th overall. After that there's pretty much only Braeden Holtby who's an impact player. This draft's a wash.

Holtby may have never become Holtbeast sitting behind Carey Price.

 

[Miller Time]

Pretty brutal? Are we looking at the same list? The one with 2 #1 defensemen (one a Norris winner), the best goalie in the world and reigning Hart winner, and one of the most consistent goal scorers in the league? There's 2 NHL captains on that list, and you could easily have 2 more (Subban on any other team and Price if he could be).

(Granted I'm not sure why you're including Subban since he was a 2nd rounder but hey it's your list).

I'd go out on a limb and say that's probably one of the best resumes any scout could have hoped to put together with those kinds of first round picks over that span of time.

Even a guy like Chipchura who you've labelled a "bust" has almost 500 NHL games played and is still in the league. 400 for Kostitsyn. Etc. And who knows what the rest will top out as.

exactly what i was thinking...

first round picks, especially outside of the top 5-7, are not nearly as "sure" of producing quality NHLers as we tend to imagine.

That list is pretty damn solid if you ask me. (and I would not agree on Kost being a bust, only 14 other 10th overall picks in history scored more than he did, were the KHL option not there, he'd easily have continued to play in the NHL... also wouldn't call TInordi a bust yet, he still hasn't received a legit shot and is young enough to still build a solid NHL career).


his list would be even better if the organization did a better job at developping and managing the talent it gets out of the drafts...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Tinordi is a bust and whether that's because of drafting, development or coaching we'l never know.

Well, I guess we'll have to comfort ourselves with Gallagher.

 

[jfm133]

Analysis of Timmins from 2008 to now. What an unfair way to do it. Why not 2007 to now. Oh! Because then he would be among the best. Also, from 2008 to 2011, Timmins had only four picks in the first two rounds. That means he was missing 4 chances to get a good players, after the first two rounds the chances to get a meaningful player are very slim, but despite the odds he was able to get Gallagher.

 

[jfm133]

Tinordi is a bust and whether that's because of drafting, development or coaching we'l never know.

Tinordi is not a bust. He is only 23 and stuck because of CBA rules.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Analysis of Timmins from 2008 to now. What an unfair way to do it. Why not 2007 to now. Oh! Because then he would be among the best. Also, from 200 to 2011, Timmins had only four picks in the first two rounds. That means he was missing 4 chances to get a good players, after the first two rounds the chances to get a meaningful player are very slim, but despite the odds he was able to get Gallagher.

You can't really analyze anything beyond 2012 anyway because we don't know what's going to happen with those prospects. Even 2012 is a little bit early to know.

 

[Bryson]

Well, I guess we'll have to comfort ourselves with Gallagher.

Sure but look at Parteryn. He's still not done atoning for his sins. A mistake that happened because our coach had two RD on the same pairing. Let''s hope that Pateryn doesn't become the next Tinordi.

The problem is that our GM is terrified to make trades for fear of making a bad trade and our coach does an awful job of managing the assets we do have. It's a hot mess.

 

[G0bias]

2011 Nathan Beaulieu
2012 Alex Galchenyuk (top 3 pick)
2013 Michael McCarron
2014 Nikita Scherbak
2015 Noah Juulsen

Trevor's last 5 first round picks are looking pretty damn good actually, specially considering the position for each of them.

2011 Nathan Beaulieu, established himself as a top 4 D with n.2 upside. (picked 17th)

2012 Alex Galchenyuk, our most talented forward, on the verge of becoming a 1C with elite skill, arguably the best player from his draft class. (picked 3rd)

2013 Michael McCarron, after a down year he has progressed immensely and shows top 6 upside and a solid defensive game. (picked 25th)

2014 Nikita Scherbak, good post draft year, showed flashes of elite skill in preseason games, still very raw.(picked 26th)

2015 Noah Juulsen, showed promise in preseason game, was last cut for Team Canada at the WJC despite youngest player in selection. (picked 26th)

So Only 2009 and 2010 picks can be really considered flubs. Then again Tinordi could still become a bottom pairing defenseman and get some NHL games under his belt. Leblanc busted hard, was however ranked right around where he was at by majority of scouts.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Sure but look at Parteryn. He's still not done atoning for his sins. A mistake that happened because our coach had two RD on the same pairing. Let''s hope that Pateryn doesn't become the next Tinordi.

The problem is that our GM is terrified to make trades for fear of making a bad trade and our coach does an awful job of managing the assets we do have. It's a hot mess.

I agree coaching and development is a problem. But even despite this we've still seen some pretty good success. You can't on the one hand scream bust at Tinordi while ignoring the fantastic drafting of Gallagher in the 5th round. Esp when Tinordi's a mid late pick to begin with.

 

[Whitesnake]

2003 - Extremely deep draft. But Kostitsyn was 10th overall, not 1st. He was a 20 goal scorer. Anytime you get a 20 goal man 10th overall you're doing okay. This is not a semi bust. You can blame him for not getting some later players in the draft but this pick wasn't bad.

Let's also remember: Max Lapierre in the 3rd round and Jaro Halak in the 9th! Very good draft even if you want to punish him for the eons of stars taken in the 1st.

2004 - Kyle Chipchura is an NHL regular. 18th overall that's very good. Good luck finding NHLers on a regular basis at this slot. In what world is this a semi bust? Any time you can land a guy like this at 18th you're doing well. Most 18th overalls don't turn into NHLers at all.

He also gets Emelin in the 3rd round. Grabvowski in the 5th and Mark Streit in the 9th! This is an outstanding draft.


2005 Carey Price - An outstanding pick who happens to be considered by many to be the best player in hockey right now. He was selected under tremendous scrutiny and Pierre MacGuire who was laughing at the pick. Best player available for sure.

Latendresse and S. Kostitsyn were late round picks. Not great but certainly not bad. Price alone makes this another outstanding draft.


2006 - 20th overall. Bust. Okay, but this was a pretty crappy draft overall. Unless you've got a top five this draft was pretty dry for the most part. As for busting on a 20th... no big deal. That's what you'd expect from a 20th man. You can cherrypick Claude Giroux but you can do this for any draft. Anyways, bad draft.

2007 - McD, Max, PK, Weber... outstanding

2008 - We don't pick until 58th overall. After that there's pretty much only Braeden Holtby who's an impact player. This draft's a wash.

2009 - Crappy draft. Again though, we don't pick until 18th.

2010 - Tinordi may be a bust at 22nd overall. Even if he is though, at 22nd I don't expect much. I also don't expect to get a guy like Brendan Gallagher in the 5th round but that's exactly what we did. Drafting as low as we did and still getting Gallagher? This is a great draft.

2011 - Beaulieu at 17th is as good as you can hope for with a pick that late. We don't know how good he'll be but I'd say that's a great pick. Nobody else there of note as of yet but this is still a good draft.

2012 - Galchenyuk and then who knows what else will happen here?

2013 - Big Mac's doing well, DLR was up last year and did pretty well. Fucale did well in the Junior tourney last year. This draft doesn't look too bad does it?

2014 & 2015 - Too soon to tell.

Not only did we hit several homeruns in the first round with mid to late picks. We hit homeruns in the later rounds. Gallagher, Streit, Halak.

Timmins has done an outstanding job for us.

Yep, when you get a 20-goal scorer in the 1st round, it's great. Except when a draft offers WAY more than that. I have no idea how in tons of drafts, you are excusing Timmins and Co by saying "bad drafts anyway" and yet totally disregard the great and incredible draft that was 2003. You can't have it both ways. The quality of the draft is either yes or not an issue.

Then, in 2004 you're saying that Chipchura is a NHL'er anyway. Good luck finding NHL regulars at that slot? So I guess that everytime we pick after 20....you're saying to yourself...."Anyway, who cares about the draft, it's not like we're getting regular NHL'ers?" Seriously? You keep saying how Timmins keeps finding gems left and right and much later than 1st round and yet....you don't expect Timmins to find a regular NHL'ers à la Chipchura at 18th overall spot? Come on man, you just said that he found Emelin, Grabovski and Streit IN THE SAME DRAFT....how is that tough to find NHL regulars at 18th if Timmins found 3 more after?

And why do you say in 2008 that only Holtby was an IMPACT player to excuse the 2008 draft? If you say that in 2004 we were Lucky to have chosen a regular NHL'er at the 18th overall spot.....shouldn't you say that for 2008 too? Stone is not even Worth mentioning? Henrique? Lehtera? Bouma? Smith? Weise? Brodie? Etc.? Aren't they just like Chipchura? Regular NHL'ers? And for some...MUCH better than Chipchura?

So busting on a 20th is no big deal in 2006.....so I guess busting on a 22nd in 2007 would have been no big deal too? If we chose Patrick White instead of Pacioretty....today, we could not have come up and say that Timmins missed Pacioretty....but today we are praising Timmins for choosing him...I don,t get those double standards. Yes, busting on some picks overall is no big deal.....not because players like that rarely play....but because it just happens sometimes. It happens to the best of them so it will happen to Timmins. I think that the "problem" with Timmins is that it appears as if he was more successful after the 1st round than during the same round. If Pacioretty is an incredible 1st rounder....what is Gallagher for a 5th rounder?

Your analysis of the 2009 draft makes your whole analysis quite flawed. So....hey, crappy draft hence it's all good. So I guess you would not have congratulated Timmins for any of the guys chosen from the 2nd round till the end if it would have happened? How can you praise him for Lapierre, Latendresse, SKost, and Co and forgot that in 2009 you had guys like Kreider, Johansson, Palmieri, Despres, O'Reilly, Tatar, Pirri, even guys like Clifford in his own role, Chiasson, Barrie, Savard, Smith, Ekholm, etc.

And in the end, you keep referring to "If I have a great pick, it means a great draft". Well, if you want. I don't think so. What makes 2007 if 1 great player coming out of 2010 makes it a great DRAFT? I think Gallagher is an awesome pick. But they didn't build the entire draft picks in order to get to Gallagher. But I guess it all comes down to our own defininition. Of course, 2007, getting 3 stars makes it an incredible draft, probalby one of the best in the history of drafts. A great draft, for me, has to be more than 1 guy making it. If that happens, it means a great pick....not a great draft. But I guess it's semantics.

I do think it's important to find quantity even if it's fillers like Lapierre and Co, because of salary cap. But the draft is mostly there to find guys you can't acquire through trades. Most of your core do have to happen through the draft and, if we disregard 2013 to 2015 because it's too soon, in 10 years, he did that with Price, Pacioretty, Subban, Gallagher and Galchenyuk. That's pretty good. Thing is....we keep dissing teams that do rack key players by chosing top 5....well 2 of those guys I named are top 5 picks too. So should we disregard Price and Galchenyuk? Or do we praise Timmins for those.....and dimininuish Hawks performance because Kane and Toews were high end picks?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Tinordi is a bust and whether that's because of drafting, development or coaching we'l never know.

But you implied you did by saying MT ruined his career.

That being said, Tinordi is not a bust but he's certainly not on the path we hoped he'd be. I don't think it's coaching, I think this is all on drafting. Guys like this aren't usually part of the new NHL. Big, physical d-men are a rarity. That's the appeal but it's also part of the problem, no skill really. He's not two-way, he's one way and he hasn't mastered it.

 

[Miller Time]

Yep, when you get a 20-goal scorer in the 1st round, it's great. Except when a draft offers WAY more than that. I have no idea how in tons of drafts, you are excusing Timmins and Co by saying "bad drafts anyway" and yet totally disregard the great and incredible draft that was 2003. You can't have it both ways. The quality of the draft is either yes or not an issue.

Then, in 2004 you're saying that Chipchura is a NHL'er anyway. Good luck finding NHL regulars at that slot? So I guess that everytime we pick after 20....you're saying to yourself...."Anyway, who cares about the draft, it's not like we're getting regular NHL'ers?" Seriously? You keep saying how Timmins keeps finding gems left and right and much later than 1st round and yet....you don't expect Timmins to find a regular NHL'ers à la Chipchura at 18th overall spot? Come on man, you just said that he found Emelin, Grabovski and Streit IN THE SAME DRAFT....how is that tough to find NHL regulars at 18th if Timmins found 3 more after?

And why do you say in 2008 that only Holtby was an IMPACT player to excuse the 2008 draft? If you say that in 2004 we were Lucky to have chosen a regular NHL'er at the 18th overall spot.....shouldn't you say that for 2008 too? Stone is not even Worth mentioning? Henrique? Lehtera? Bouma? Smith? Weise? Brodie? Etc.? Aren't they just like Chipchura? Regular NHL'ers? And for some...MUCH better than Chipchura?

So busting on a 20th is no big deal in 2006.....so I guess busting on a 22nd in 2007 would have been no big deal too? If we chose Patrick White instead of Pacioretty....today, we could not have come up and say that Timmins missed Pacioretty....but today we are praising Timmins for choosing him...I don,t get those double standards. Yes, busting on some picks overall is no big deal.....not because players like that rarely play....but because it just happens sometimes. It happens to the best of them so it will happen to Timmins. I think that the "problem" with Timmins is that it appears as if he was more successful after the 1st round than during the same round. If Pacioretty is an incredible 1st rounder....what is Gallagher for a 5th rounder?

Your analysis of the 2009 draft makes your whole analysis quite flawed. So....hey, crappy draft hence it's all good. So I guess you would not have congratulated Timmins for any of the guys chosen from the 2nd round till the end if it would have happened? How can you praise him for Lapierre, Latendresse, SKost, and Co and forgot that in 2009 you had guys like Kreider, Johansson, Palmieri, Despres, O'Reilly, Tatar, Pirri, even guys like Clifford in his own role, Chiasson, Barrie, Savard, Smith, Ekholm, etc.

And in the end, you keep referring to "If I have a great pick, it means a great draft". Well, if you want. I don't think so. What makes 2007 if 1 great player coming out of 2010 makes it a great DRAFT? I think Gallagher is an awesome pick. But they didn't build the entire draft picks in order to get to Gallagher. But I guess it all comes down to our own defininition. Of course, 2007, getting 3 stars makes it an incredible draft, probalby one of the best in the history of drafts. A great draft, for me, has to be more than 1 guy making it. If that happens, it means a great pick....not a great draft. But I guess it's semantics.

I do think it's important to find quantity even if it's fillers like Lapierre and Co, because of salary cap. But the draft is mostly there to find guys you can't acquire through trades. Most of your core do have to happen through the draft and, if we disregard 2013 to 2015 because it's too soon, in 10 years, he did that with Price, Pacioretty, Subban, Gallagher and Galchenyuk. That's pretty good. Thing is....we keep dissing teams that do rack key players by chosing top 5....well 2 of those guys I named are top 5 picks too. So should we disregard Price and Galchenyuk? Or do we praise Timmins for those.....and dimininuish Hawks performance because Kane and Toews were high end picks?

bottom line is that the habs have been one of the better teams in the league at getting bang-for-their-buck in terms of drafted players since Timmins took over in that department.

few teams have done as well, as consistently, in the draft as the habs are (especially when quality of picks is factored in).

Timmins, like any other pro, is not without his mistakes and missteps. Overall, his body of work suggests that he (and his area) is the LEAST of the habs concerns moving forward.

 

[Whitesnake]

bottom line is that the habs have been one of the better teams in the league at getting bang-for-their-buck in terms of drafted players since Timmins took over in that department.

few teams have done as well, as consistently, in the draft as the habs are (especially when quality of picks is factored in).

Timmins, like any other pro, is not without his mistakes and missteps. Overall, his body of work suggests that he (and his area) is the LEAST of the habs concerns moving forward.

Reason why I said he's not to be blamed for anything. But lately, it's not going as well as we were used to. But like I keep saying....it can change real quick with the 2013 to 2015 drafts.

 

[beowulf]

So far only those have not played in the NHL consistently since making the jump. Also the Kost brothers have had productive years.

Actually White has just no longer with the Habs but with the Flyers.

I don't blame Timmins, he has done a pretty good job overall and much better than many out there. Once a player is drafted he is out of Timmins hands and it is up to the organization to better prepare these players and make sure they are given a chance to succeed. I still think we have a terrible set of head coaches in the NHL and AHL and this is hurting player development.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yep, when you get a 20-goal scorer in the 1st round, it's great. Except when a draft offers WAY more than that. I have no idea how in tons of drafts, you are excusing Timmins and Co by saying "bad drafts anyway" and yet totally disregard the great and incredible draft that was 2003. You can't have it both ways. The quality of the draft is either yes or not an issue.

Then, in 2004 you're saying that Chipchura is a NHL'er anyway. Good luck finding NHL regulars at that slot? So I guess that everytime we pick after 20....you're saying to yourself...."Anyway, who cares about the draft, it's not like we're getting regular NHL'ers?" Seriously? You keep saying how Timmins keeps finding gems left and right and much later than 1st round and yet....you don't expect Timmins to find a regular NHL'ers à la Chipchura at 18th overall spot? Come on man, you just said that he found Emelin, Grabovski and Streit IN THE SAME DRAFT....how is that tough to find NHL regulars at 18th if Timmins found 3 more after?

And why do you say in 2008 that only Holtby was an IMPACT player to excuse the 2008 draft? If you say that in 2004 we were Lucky to have chosen a regular NHL'er at the 18th overall spot.....shouldn't you say that for 2008 too? Stone is not even Worth mentioning? Henrique? Lehtera? Bouma? Smith? Weise? Brodie? Etc.? Aren't they just like Chipchura? Regular NHL'ers? And for some...MUCH better than Chipchura?

So busting on a 20th is no big deal in 2006.....so I guess busting on a 22nd in 2007 would have been no big deal too? If we chose Patrick White instead of Pacioretty....today, we could not have come up and say that Timmins missed Pacioretty....but today we are praising Timmins for choosing him...I don,t get those double standards. Yes, busting on some picks overall is no big deal.....not because players like that rarely play....but because it just happens sometimes. It happens to the best of them so it will happen to Timmins. I think that the "problem" with Timmins is that it appears as if he was more successful after the 1st round than during the same round. If Pacioretty is an incredible 1st rounder....what is Gallagher for a 5th rounder?

Your analysis of the 2009 draft makes your whole analysis quite flawed. So....hey, crappy draft hence it's all good. So I guess you would not have congratulated Timmins for any of the guys chosen from the 2nd round till the end if it would have happened? How can you praise him for Lapierre, Latendresse, SKost, and Co and forgot that in 2009 you had guys like Kreider, Johansson, Palmieri, Despres, O'Reilly, Tatar, Pirri, even guys like Clifford in his own role, Chiasson, Barrie, Savard, Smith, Ekholm, etc.

And in the end, you keep referring to "If I have a great pick, it means a great draft". Well, if you want. I don't think so. What makes 2007 if 1 great player coming out of 2010 makes it a great DRAFT? I think Gallagher is an awesome pick. But they didn't build the entire draft picks in order to get to Gallagher. But I guess it all comes down to our own defininition. Of course, 2007, getting 3 stars makes it an incredible draft, probalby one of the best in the history of drafts. A great draft, for me, has to be more than 1 guy making it. If that happens, it means a great pick....not a great draft. But I guess it's semantics.

I do think it's important to find quantity even if it's fillers like Lapierre and Co, because of salary cap. But the draft is mostly there to find guys you can't acquire through trades. Most of your core do have to happen through the draft and, if we disregard 2013 to 2015 because it's too soon, in 10 years, he did that with Price, Pacioretty, Subban, Gallagher and Galchenyuk. That's pretty good. Thing is....we keep dissing teams that do rack key players by chosing top 5....well 2 of those guys I named are top 5 picks too. So should we disregard Price and Galchenyuk? Or do we praise Timmins for those.....and dimininuish Hawks performance because Kane and Toews were high end picks?

Is the debate on whether or not he's perfect or that he's good? 'Cause if we're arguing about perfection... then nope, you're right he hasn't been perfect.

Bottom line is that we've drafted mid to late on most drafts and we've done very well regardless. I think his record speaks for itself and I think we're extremely lucky to have him. You can't just look at the players we got, you have to look at where we got them. We've had two top five picks and with both we've gotten the best player available with one guy being maybe the best player in the league.

 

[Whitesnake]

Is the debate on whether or not he's perfect or that he's good? 'Cause if we're arguing about perfection... then nope, you're right he hasn't been perfect.

Bottom line is that we've drafted mid to late on most drafts and we've done very well regardless. I think his record speaks for itself and I think we're extremely lucky to have him.

My problem with your analysis is that he either was great....or when he wasn't, it didn't matter. So through your analysis, he was indeed perfect. Which he wasn't. And lately, while it might be expectations of a guy who picked Price, Pacioretty, Subban and McDonagh over a span of 3 years, I guess those expectations will be greater. When you actually are seen as a great one, you can't always surf on your past to explain how great you are....you need present examples. 2012 to 2015 will be key at determining that.

 

[beowulf]

Trevor's last 5 first round picks are looking pretty damn good actually, specially considering the position for each of them.

2011 Nathan Beaulieu, established himself as a top 4 D with n.2 upside. (picked 17th)

2012 Alex Galchenyuk, our most talented forward, on the verge of becoming a 1C with elite skill, arguably the best player from his draft class. (picked 3rd)

2013 Michael McCarron, after a down year he has progressed immensely and shows top 6 upside and a solid defensive game. (picked 25th)

2014 Nikita Scherbak, good post draft year, showed flashes of elite skill in preseason games, still very raw.(picked 26th)

2015 Noah Juulsen, showed promise in preseason game, was last cut for Team Canada at the WJC despite youngest player in selection. (picked 26th)

So Only 2009 and 2010 picks can be really considered flubs. Then again Tinordi could still become a bottom pairing defenseman and get some NHL games under his belt. Leblanc busted hard, was however ranked right around where he was at by majority of scouts.

I also think Leblanc was poorly handled. I won't absolve him of his part in this but from the sound of it, moving to the Q and then not being well managed in the AHL didn't help him and is part of ultimately killing his NHL career.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

My problem with your analysis is that he either was great....or when he wasn't, it didn't matter. So through your analysis, he was indeed perfect. Which he wasn't. And lately, while it might be expectations of a guy who picked Price, Pacioretty, Subban and McDonagh over a span of 3 years, I guess those expectations will be greater. When you actually are seen as a great one, you can't always surf on your past to explain how great you are....you need present examples. 2012 to 2015 will be key at determining that.

I think you missed what I was saying.

EVERY team is going to have bad drafts. And you aren't going to regularly find superstars outside the top five. We've done extremely well relative to other teams. Have we had bad drafts? Yup. But they've usually come in years where we drafted low or it was a bad draft altogether.

If he's missing with top five picks then there's a problem. But he's missed with 18th or 19th overall picks... I don't really care that much. Esp when he's pulling out Brendan Gallaghers in the fifth and guys like Streit and Halak out of the 9th.

Here was my analysis of his work:

Good drafts: 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012
Bad drafts: 2006, 2009
Wash: 2008
Too soon to tell: 2013-2015

Let me know which ones you disagree with.

 

[jfm133]

I still think we have a terrible set of head coaches in the NHL and AHL and this is hurting player development.

So tired to hear this pointless argument. Pacioretty and Subban did just fine under Therrien, Gallagher and Beaulieu were developped by Lefebvre and Therrien and are also just fine. Galchenyuk is on the right path. All the hate against Therrien is irrationnal. If Therrien is so awful, what about Jon Cooper. He was supposed to be so great with young players. Is it his fault if it is going bad with Drouin, if Stamkos is reluctant to sign a prolongation? Imagine if Therrien would be in Tampa? He would be blamed for everything. Imagine Therrien choosing Marchesseault over Stamkos in sootout and loosing the game. He would be called the worst coach ever. As for Lefebvre, for the first time he has a decent team and despite all the players he lost to the big club and injuries, the team is doing well.

 

[beowulf]

I think you missed what I was saying.

EVERY team is going to have bad drafts. And you aren't going to regularly find superstars outside the top five. We've done extremely well relative to other teams. Have we had bad drafts? Yup. But they've usually come in years where we drafted low or it was a bad draft altogether.

If he's missing with top five picks then there's a problem. But he's missed with 18th or 19th overall picks... I don't really care that much. Esp when he's pulling out Brendan Gallaghers in the fifth and guys like Streit and Halak out of the 9th.

Here was my analysis of his work:

Good drafts: 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012
Bad drafts: 2006, 2009
Wash: 2008
Too soon to tell: 2013-2015

Let me know which ones you disagree with.

How is 2008 a wash? It was a poor draft...I guess if look at the lack of picks, especially a first maybe you can call it a wash. Didn't like the move of given up that first for Tangay but as a GM you have to take some chances I guess and that one didn't work out at all.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

How is 2008 a wash? It was a poor draft...I guess if look at the lack of picks, especially a first maybe you can call it a wash. Didn't like the move of given up that first for Tangay but as a GM you have to take some chances I guess and that one didn't work out at all.

We started with the 58th overall pick.... Good luck getting NHL players when you're starting your draft at the very bottom of the 2nd round. I'm not calling that a bad draft I'm calling it a wash because he had nothing to work with.

So tired to hear this pointless argument. Pacioretty and Subban did just fine under Therrien, Gallagher and Beaulieu were developped by Lefebvre and Therrien and are also just fine. Galchenyuk is on the right path. All the hate against Therrien is irrationnal. If Therrien is so awful, what about Jon Cooper. He was supposed to be so great with young players. Is it his fault if it is going bad with Drouin, if Stamkos is reluctant to sign a prolongation? Imagine if Therrien would be in Tampa? He would be blamed for everything. Imagine Therrien choosing Marchesseault over Stamkos in sootout and loosing the game. He would be called the worst coach ever. As for Lefebvre, for the first time he has a decent team and despite all the players he lost to the big club and injuries, the team is doing well.

I'd disagree on the development side but let's leave this for the Therrien thread.

 

[jfm133]

2008 was a bad year with low talent available after the first round. One of the best players drafted after Kristo is Weise and he is with us now.

 

[Whitesnake]

I think you missed what I was saying.

EVERY team is going to have bad drafts. And you aren't going to regularly find superstars outside the top five. We've done extremely well relative to other teams. Have we had bad drafts? Yup. But they've usually come in years where we drafted low or it was a bad draft altogether.

If he's missing with top five picks then there's a problem. But he's missed with 18th or 19th overall picks... I don't really care that much. Esp when he's pulling out Brendan Gallaghers in the fifth and guys like Streit and Halak out of the 9th.

Here was my analysis of his work:

Good drafts: 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012
Bad drafts: 2006, 2009
Wash: 2008
Too soon to tell: 2013-2015

Let me know which ones you disagree with.

While 2012 to 2015 still needs to be determined, I think you still can see a pattern that from 2003 to 2007, it was incredibly strong either with fillers and top players. Since 2008 it's Gallagher and GAlchy, a top 3 pick. Again, everytime we talk about top teams, we diss them based on the fact that they have top 5 picks in their ranks, which makes it easier. So based on that...do we diss the Galchy pick? I personnally don't think so....while tons of people wanted Galchy, he still had to make the pick. But it,s been more quiet. And yes, I realize that 2008 and 2010, was also relatively quiet in number of picks. Yet.....we praise Timmins for Grabovski, a 150th pick, a Streit at 262nd, a Halak at 271th....let just say that he wasn't able to duplicate that during those 2 small draft years. 2011 will also be fairly quiet unless we can have something out of Dietz and Nygren. 2012 is all on Hudon now and let remember 2012 was once looking awfullly great. Now, the new 2012 is 2013, who still looks fairly good. Again, maybe aside from Crisp, EVERYBODY could play in the NHL. And too soon to say about 2014 and 2015, even though I think 2014 will be quiet.

Good drafts: 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012
Bad drafts: 2006, 2009
Wash: 2008
Too soon to tell: 2013-2015

Good drafts: Can't agree with 2003. Not with top end players available. And you have 4 top 80 picks. And when you pick 3 guys out of the same junior team, it's either that you know something nobody knew....or you missed something.... End-result tells you which one it was.....
2004: Aside from Chip...yeah, good draft. Emelin, Streit and Halak, impressive. And to be honest, we have no idea how his injury really hampered him.
2005: Well Price....but rest was meh. So it comes down to semantics, does getting 1 incredible player makes it a GREAT draft....or just a GREAT pick?
2007: Good? Nope...Incredible.
2010: Can't agree. But again, it comes down to getting Gallagher making it a great DRAFT. I think it makes it a great pick. If 2007 is just a good draft...imagine getting Kuznetsov AND Gallagher...
2011: How is that good? We still have no idea where Beaulieu is going....he still Learning the position. And the rest won't make it. And it's good? So getting 1 NHL'er makes it a good draft?
2012: Great pick with Galchy. We'll see how good is it based on Hudon. Mind you, getting Collberg meant getting 1/2 season of Vanek....not bad. I wouldn,t say good DRAFT though yet.

For the rest....well I agree. I think we could still say 2008 was a bad draft.....but he didn't have a lot of room to play with. We all know that. But he was able to do miracles with lower picks than what he had in 2008...so I guess it's all about expecatations.

 

[Canadian_Brewtality]

Habs are a weird team

We basically have 4 untouchables that were all drafted by Timmins (Price, Subby, Pacioretty & Gallagher).

Then aside Galchenyuk, who else would be desirable?

A lot of meh and bleh fowards.

Everyone wants Ryjo, Drouin etc, but if we cant touch those guys, who we moving?

Very little top end talent.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Leave it for the Therrien threads folks.