Trevor Timmins discussion, when does he get blamed?

[Nicko999]

So because Bergevin has been blamed after the press conference I felt the need to create a thread about a guy that should be equally blamed if not more, Trevor Timmins. Now before you jump on me, I think he has done a great job at drafting goalies and defensemen. However, our lack of offense is due in part because of his inability to draft forwards.

Since 2003 (when he was hired), only Andrei Kostitsyn (1 time), Mikhail Grabovski (2 times), Sergei Kostitsyn (1 time) and Max Pacioretty (3 times) are forwards drafted by him that have had 50+ pts season.

For 60+ pts season it's even worse. Only Max Pacioretty has done it (3 times).

That's over a period of 12 years! I understand we often pick late in the first round but it is possible to find great offensive players later. The Art Ross winner was a 5th round pick.

Keep Timmins but hire some scout that can evaluate offensive talent to help him.

Click to read more...

 

[PorkChopSandwiches]

So because Bergevin has been blamed after the press conference I felt the need to create a thread about a guy that should be equally blamed if not more, Trevor Timmins. Now before you jump on me, I think he has done a great job at drafting goalies and defensemen. However, our lack of offense is due in part because of his inability to draft forwards.

Since 2003 (when he was hired), only Andrei Kostitsyn (1 time), Mikhail Grabovski (2 times), Sergei Kostitsyn (1 time) and Max Pacioretty (3 times) are forwards drafted by him that have had 50+ pts season.

For 60+ pts season it's even worse. Only Max Pacioretty has done it (3 times).

That's over a period of 12 years! I understand we often pick late in the first round but it is possible to find great offensive players later. The Art Ross winner was a 5th round pick.

Keep Timmins but hire some scout that can evaluate offensive talent to help him.

here here

Proof is right there, i agree he is great at the defensive side of the game but habs seem to struggle to get that elite scoring forward and instead they scramble to try and trade for it.

 

[TRG]

If only we traded McDonagh for an offensive stud.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So because Bergevin has been blamed after the press conference I felt the need to create a thread about a guy that should be equally blamed if not more, Trevor Timmins. Now before you jump on me, I think he has done a great job at drafting goalies and defensemen. However, our lack of offense is due in part because of his inability to draft forwards.

Since 2003 (when he was hired), only Andrei Kostitsyn (1 time), Mikhail Grabovski (2 times), Sergei Kostitsyn (1 time) and Max Pacioretty (3 times) are forwards drafted by him that have had 50+ pts season.

For 60+ pts season it's even worse. Only Max Pacioretty has done it (3 times).

That's over a period of 12 years! I understand we often pick late in the first round but it is possible to find great offensive players later. The Art Ross winner was a 5th round pick.

Keep Timmins but hire some scout that can evaluate offensive talent to help him.

If we'd played Galchenyuk the way we were supposed to you might have a point. We used him in a bad system and out of position and he still put up good points.

Its also silly to focus on one position while ignoring the fact that we've drafted the best goalie and arguably the best defenseman in the game over that period. Add in Max and McD and now you're looking at four star players - mostly drafted mid first and below.

Timmins doesn't take heat because he doesn't deserve any.

 

[Mach12]

Not his fault. The Habs' coaches during his time here (except maybe Carbo) generally were never able to coach offensive talent.

 

[Michelangelo]

Lmao really?

If Timmins is let go, Bergevin is gonna scramble as ****

 

[OneSharpMarble]

Apparently MB wants to "build from within" (unlike the rest of the league LOL) so how can you blame the only guy who is doing anything?

 

[jwrocks1]

Timmins will get blamed when Timmins will be the GM of a team. Until then, he works for a GM who gets the final word on who gets picked. And coaches are given the task to develop the players he picked

 

[WeThreeKings]

Might have something to do with the organizational philosophy .

 

[LaP]

Blamed for what?

Trading McDo for nothing?

Even with our totally awful offense if you add McDo to our defense core we could realistically be a cup contender.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

OP didn't say to fire Timmins, just suggested he has a weakness.

Since 2003:

Pacioretty-Grabovski-Kostitsyn
Kostitsyn-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
DLR-Lapierre-Andrighetto
D'agostini-Chiphura-White
Maxwell, Leblanc

McDonagh-Subban
Streit-Emelin
Tinordi-Beaulieu
O'Byrne-Weber

Price
Halak

I don't think I missed anyone important but two #1 Gs, 2 #1 Ds, 1 #2D, plenty of top 6 D(some with upside) but only 1 1st line forward and a few second liners. I only took guys with NHL experience.

Hopefully that changes!

 

[Richiebottles]

Philosophy is the problem.

For YEARS posters on this board and Timmins have be comfortable sitting back an picking guys that were safe. Instead they turned into complete busts. Hey everyone we should have drafted Laughton.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Philosophy is the problem.

For YEARS posters on this board and Timmins have be comfortable sitting back an picking guys that were safe. Instead they turned into complete busts. Hey everyone we should have drafted Laughton.

Timmins didn't always pick safe guys. Fischer wasn't a safe pick for example.

 

[mariemarie]

Cory Urquart instead of Bergeron in the 2nd round. They picked the wrong qmjhl center.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

I think it's disingenous to criticize Timmins at this point. He's the one person in this organization that should not be criticized and I'd say him and Waite are very important to this team. Galchenyuk and Gallagher should join that list very soon, I'm confident Scherbak and Hudon have potential to reach that mark too. Montreal is in a pretty unique situation since they've rarely selected very high in a draft (talking about top 10 here), they have on three occasions since Timmins' taken over.

If you look at other teams who have been competitive the list isn't much better:

SJ have Michalek (6th), Pavelski (205th), Setoguchi (8th), Couture (9th), Bonino; off by 1 pt (176th). Setoguchi was a product of Thornton and three of those players are a result of top 10 picks.

CGY have Monahan (6th). VAN have Kesler (23rd), Raymond (51st), Grabner (14th). DAL have Eriksson (33rd), Neal (33rd), Benn (129th), Smith (69th). MIN have Burns (20th), O'Sullivan (56th). ANA have Getzlaf (19th), Perry (28th), Ryan (2nd). NSH have Radulov (15th), Hornqvist (230th), Smith (98th). NJ have Parise (17th), Zajac (20th), Henrique (82nd). NYR have Dubinsky (60th), Callahan (127th), Stepan (51st). PHI have Carter (11th), Richards (24th), Giroux (22nd), JVR (2nd).


When your GM deals away top 60 picks, it's hard to find top 6 talent.

 

[Alexdaman]

OP didn't say to fire Timmins, just suggested he has a weakness.

Since 2003:

Pacioretty-Grabovski-Kostitsyn
Kostitsyn-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
DLR-Lapierre-Andrighetto
D'agostini-Chiphura-White
Maxwell, Leblanc

McDonagh-Subban
Streit-Emelin
Tinordi-Beaulieu
O'Byrne-Weber

Price
Halak

I don't think I missed anyone important but two #1 Gs, 2 #1 Ds, 1 #2D, plenty of top 6 D(some with upside) but only 1 1st line forward and a few second liners. I only took guys with NHL experience.

Hopefully that changes!

So far only those have not played in the NHL consistently since making the jump. Also the Kost brothers have had productive years.

 

[Nicko999]

If we'd played Galchenyuk the way we were supposed to you might have a point. We used him in a bad system and out of position and he still put up good points.

Its also silly to focus on one position while ignoring the fact that we've drafted the best goalie and arguably the best defenseman in the game over that period. Add in Max and McD and now you're looking at four star players - mostly drafted mid first and below.

Timmins doesn't take heat because he doesn't deserve any.

Everything is not about the coaches. Galchenyuk played his last year in junior as a winger and has no one but himself to blame for the awful finish of the season.

I also focused on 1 position because it happens to be our biggest need. I acknowledged the fact I am entirely satisfied with the goalies and defensemen he drafts. It's the forwards I have a problem with. In 12 years, he has drafted 1 1st liner.

 

[montreal]

I think it's a terrible way to look at the draft, you can only do so much with where you pick.


Here's some other things to look at,

1)The Habs have picked in the top 10 3 times - one of them has turned into the best player in his position in the NHL, Kostitsyn wouldn't look as bad if it didn't end up being on of the best drafts in the modern era and Galchenyuk it's just too early to tell but for his 20 year old season he hit career highs across the board.

2)Number of top 60 picks over 12 drafts- 23 (A.Kostitsyn, Urquhart, Chipchura, Price, Latendresse, Fischer, Maxwell, Carle, McDonagh, Pacioretty, Subban, Kristo, Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, Collberg, Thrower, McCarron, Fucale, DLR, Lehkonen, Scherbak)

Out of them 2 are total busts (Fischer, Urquhart) 14 have appeared in an NHL game, 1 is the best goalie in the world, 2 are top NHL defensemen and 1 is one of the top even strength goal scorers in the NHL (and has 76 goals in the last 153 games) plus you know at least 3 or more will play in the NHL in the future most likely.

3)Timmins has made 88 picks, if you take out the last draft class that's 82 picks. From that 32 have appeared in the NHL, if not injured Nygren would have been called up as well. Kristo and Hudon were both on the cusp of being call up this year as well. That would have been 35 of 82 plus McCarron is a lock to see the NHL at some point in the next few years as well as others like Scherbak, Lernout, Fucale, Dietz, Collberg, MacMillan, Bennett etc... could make it.

 

[Beige Van]

OP didn't say to fire Timmins, just suggested he has a weakness.

Since 2003:

Pacioretty-Grabovski-Kostitsyn
Kostitsyn-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
DLR-Lapierre-Andrighetto
D'agostini-Chiphura-White
Maxwell, Leblanc

McDonagh-Subban
Streit-Emelin
Tinordi-Beaulieu
O'Byrne-Weber

Price
Halak

I don't think I missed anyone important but two #1 Gs, 2 #1 Ds, 1 #2D, plenty of top 6 D(some with upside) but only 1 1st line forward and a few second liners. I only took guys with NHL experience.

Hopefully that changes!

Totally agree. Timmins is probably the least of the organization's problems, but the slavish devotion is overboard. The OP is correct; in 11 years of drafting, the team has little to show in terms of top line talent. And as evidenced by this past playoffs, it is biting the team in the ass.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

I think it's a terrible way to look at the draft, you can only do so much with where you pick.


Here's some other things to look at,

1)The Habs have picked in the top 10 3 times - one of them has turned into the best player in his position in the NHL, Kostitsyn wouldn't look as bad if it didn't end up being on of the best drafts in the modern era and Galchenyuk it's just too early to tell but for his 20 year old season he hit career highs across the board.

2)Number of top 60 picks over 12 drafts- 23 (A.Kostitsyn, Urquhart, Chipchura, Price, Latendresse, Fischer, Maxwell, Carle, McDonagh, Pacioretty, Subban, Kristo, Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, Collberg, Thrower, McCarron, Fucale, DLR, Lehkonen, Scherbak)

Out of them 2 are total busts (Fischer, Urquhart) 14 have appeared in an NHL game, 1 is the best goalie in the world, 2 are top NHL defensemen and 1 is one of the top even strength goal scorers in the NHL (and has 76 goals in the last 153 games) plus you know at least 3 or more will play in the NHL in the future most likely.

3)Timmins has made 88 picks, if you take out the last draft class that's 82 picks. From that 32 have appeared in the NHL, if not injured Nygren would have been called up as well. Kristo and Hudon were both on the cusp of being call up this year as well. That would have been 35 of 82 plus McCarron is a lock to see the NHL at some point in the next few years as well as others like Scherbak, Lernout, Fucale, Dietz, Collberg, MacMillan, Bennett etc... could make it.

Not more needs to be said. Summed it up perfectly.

 

[Nicko999]

I think it's a terrible way to look at the draft, you can only do so much with where you pick.


Here's some other things to look at,

1)The Habs have picked in the top 10 3 times - one of them has turned into the best player in his position in the NHL, Kostitsyn wouldn't look as bad if it didn't end up being on of the best drafts in the modern era and Galchenyuk it's just too early to tell but for his 20 year old season he hit career highs across the board.

2)Number of top 60 picks over 12 drafts- 23 (A.Kostitsyn, Urquhart, Chipchura, Price, Latendresse, Fischer, Maxwell, Carle, McDonagh, Pacioretty, Subban, Kristo, Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, Collberg, Thrower, McCarron, Fucale, DLR, Lehkonen, Scherbak)

Out of them 2 are total busts (Fischer, Urquhart) 14 have appeared in an NHL game, 1 is the best goalie in the world, 2 are top NHL defensemen and 1 is one of the top even strength goal scorers in the NHL (and has 76 goals in the last 153 games) plus you know at least 3 or more will play in the NHL in the future most likely.

3)Timmins has made 88 picks, if you take out the last draft class that's 82 picks. From that 32 have appeared in the NHL, if not injured Nygren would have been called up as well. Kristo and Hudon were both on the cusp of being call up this year as well. That would have been 35 of 82 plus McCarron is a lock to see the NHL at some point in the next few years as well as others like Scherbak, Lernout, Fucale, Dietz, Collberg, MacMillan, Bennett etc... could make it.

Do the same exercise but with forwards only. Let's see the results.

 

[Account Terminated]

Sometimes I wonder where this board would be without a poster like montreal. Damn solid post.

 

[montreal]

I'd add some other factors as well,

Timmins was behind the hiring of Guy Boucher for Hamilton,

Plus add in undrafted FA's, as well as prospects traded for NHLers or other prospects that have appeared in the NHL for the Habs, as I'm sure Timmins has had some hand in these moves.

FA's- Yann Danis, DD, Desjardins, Brendon Nash, Brock Trotter, Andreas Engqvist, Frederic St. Denis, Raphael Diaz

Trades- Desjardins led to Tok, Halak led to Eller, O'Byrne led to Bournival, D'Agostini was traded for Palushaj, Grabo led to Pateryn, Kristo for Thomas

Do the same exercise but with forwards only. Let's see the results.

You can't go into a draft and say I'm going to draft the best forward possible, you take what you think is the best player on the board. I think it's very shortsighted way to look at the draft.

 

[Mathletic]

To add to the conversation, something I posted a while back ... I just added some of the recent picks at the bottom

In order to evaluate a scout's work I like to compare the selection made with the next player selected at the same position.

GP, G, A, PTS

2003

10- Andrei Kostitsyn, 398 103 119 222
vs. Jeff Carter, 611 248 196 444

40- Cory Urquhart
vs. Petr Vrana

61- Maxim Lapierre, 507 61 63 124
vs. David Backes, 543 151 190 341

79- Ryan O'Byrne, 308 5 34 39
vs. Alexandre Picard, 253 19 50 69

113- Corey Locke
vs. Liam Lindstrom

123- Danny Stewart
vs. Konstantin Volkov

177- Christopher Heino-Lindberg
vs. Chris Holt

188- Mark Flood
vs. Chad Brownlee

217- Oskari Korpikari
vs. Jay Rosehill

241- Jimmy Bonneau
vs. Eduard Lewandowski

271- Jaroslav Halak, 257
vs. Kevin Regan


2004

18- Kyle Chipchura, 315 20 47 67
vs. Lauri Korpikoski, 375 60 73 133

84- Alexei Emelin, 139 7 19 26
vs. Clayton Barthel

100- J.T. Wyman
vs. Roman Tomanek

150- Mikhail Grabovski, 416 106 144 250
vs. Steven Zalewski

181- Loic Lacasse
vs. Josh Disher

212- Jon Gleed
vs. Tyler Eckford

246- Greg Stewart
vs. J.D. Corbin

262- Mark Streit, 547 71 244 315
vs. Spencer Dillon

278- Alexandre Dulac-Lemelin
vs. Steve McClellen


2005

5- Carey Price, 355
vs. Tuukka Rask, 179

45- Guillaume Latendresse, 341 87 60 147
vs. Tom Fritsche

121- Juraj Mikus
vs. Morten Madsen

130- Mathieu Aubin
vs. Darren Helm, 272 39 55 94

190- Matt D'Agostini, 297 50 52 102
vs. Nicolas Blanchard

200- Sergei Kostitsyn, 353 67 109 176
vs. David Kuchejda

229- Philippe Paquet
vs. NA


2006

20- David Fischer
vs. Bob Sanguinetti

49- Ben Maxwell, 47 2 6 8
vs. Milan Lucic, 458 112 164 276

53- Mathieu Carle
vs. Denis Bodrov

66- Ryan White, 122 3 10 13
vs. Robin Figren

139- Pavel Valentenko
vs. Cody Wild

199- Cameron Cepek
vs. Arturs Kulda


2007

12- Ryan McDonagh, 225 20 70 90
vs. Kevin Shattenkirk, 254 31 114 145

22- Max Pacioretty, 293 91 95 186
vs. Mikael Backlund, 224 36 53 89

43- P.K. Subban, 258 40 111 151
vs. Colby Cohen

65- Olivier Fortier
vs. Garrett Klotz

73- Yannick Weber, 147 7 30 37
vs. Robert Bortuzzo, 53 2 6 8

133- Joe Stejskal
vs. Juraj Mikus

142- Andrew Conboy
vs. Mickey Renaud

163- Nichlas Torp
vs. Blake Kessel

192- Scott Kishel
vs. Carl Gunnarsson, 280 13 66 79


2008

56- Danny Kristo
vs. Dmitri Kugryshev

86- Steve Quailer
vs. Ian Schultz

116- Jason Missiaen
vs. Dustin Tokarski

138- Maxim Trunev
vs. Mark Olver

206- Patrick Johnson
vs. Jesper Samuelsson


2009

18- Louis Leblanc, 50 5 5 10
vs. Chris Kreider, 72 15 18 33

65- Joonas Nattinen,
vs. Josh Birkholz

79- Mac Bennett
vs. Kevin Connauton

109- Alexander Avtsin
vs. Nick Oliver

139- Gabriel Dumont
vs. Spencer Bennett

169- Dustin Walsh
vs. Eric Wellwood

199- Mike Cichy
vs. Gaelan Patterson

211- Petteri Simila
vs. NA


Let's say we made two teams

Timmins

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher
Latendresse - Grabovski - AK
Hudon - Chipchura - SK
DLR - Lapierre - White
D'Agostini

McDonagh - Subban
Emelin - Streit
Beaulieu - O'Byrne
Tinordi - Weber

Price
Halak


vs.

Lucic - Carter - Forsberg
Kreider - Backes - Korpikoski
Helm - Backlund - Dano
X - X - Brown (Connor)

Gunnarsson - Shattenkirk
Reilly - Severson
Klefbom - Pysyk
Bortuzzo

Rask
X

 

[Nicko999]

You can't go into a draft and say I'm going to draft the best forward possible, you take what you think is the best player on the board. I think it's very shortsighted way to look at the draft.

True but that doesn't change the fact that forwards drafted under Timmins are rather average. Like I said earlier, we have drafted 1 1st liner in 12 years. That must be a cause of concern no matter how good drafting other positions has been.