Training Camp Thread Part Two - Drozg didn't make the team

[Tom Hanks]

I am hoping CC at 1.25 will be easier for him to sit. I don't agree with it but there is a lot of pressure to play shultz and JJ when they are making 5.5 and 3.25 respectively.

Riikola and CC make the same and sully seems to like and trust Ruh. I hope that helps him make the right choices and base it on play not contract.

Not really for a UFA and definitely doesn’t apply to anyone in the playoffs

 

[Darren McCord]

Not really for a UFA and definitely doesn’t apply to anyone in the playoffs

He sat JJ last (2019) playoffs didn't he? But ya I agree. But you cant play them all season then sit them for playoffs and expect another guy to come in and be great.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

He sat JJ last (2019) playoffs didn't he? But ya I agree. But you cant play them all season then sit them for playoffs and expect another guy to come in and be great.

He sat him for one game IIRC. Then went back on that and twiddled his thumbs and watched while both the team and JJ imploded.

You r point about CC's contract is well-taken, though. That SHOULD make a difference. We'll see how far gone Sully actually is.

 

[Gurglesons]

He sat him for one game IIRC. Then went back on that and twiddled his thumbs and watched while both the team and JJ imploded.

You r point about CC's contract is well-taken, though. That SHOULD make a difference. We'll see how far gone Sully actually is.

Funny. The entire board was arguing that he should sit Maatta which he did and he still gets crucified for it.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I am hoping CC at 1.25 will be easier for him to sit. I don't agree with it but there is a lot of pressure to play shultz and JJ when they are making 5.5 and 3.25 respectively.

Riikola and CC make the same and sully seems to like and trust Ruh. I hope that helps him make the right choices and base it on play not contract.

It’s more concerning to me that JR saddled himself with JJ, despite all the massive red flags, has to buy him out after he couldn’t get rid of the guy.... then...goes out and signs a younger version of the guy (JJ is a better PKer, but whatever).

Like you said, at least it’s a one year deal, but it’s troubling any coaching staff/GM would watch CC and think:

- he can play this system
- he’s good
- he’s not a ticking time bomb rolled into a train wreck

Maybe I’ll be wrong, maybe what I saw in Toronto magically goes away with TR coaching him and sprinkling some IQ on him.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

Mark Madden just said that the Pens are so happy with Matheson they're considering bumping him up to the 2nd pairing and demoting Pettersson to the 3rd pairing.

They're talking him up alot. I hope he's worth the hype...and contract.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

They didn't play JJ because they felt the need to justify his contract. They played him because they liked him, and thought he was an important piece of the blueline corps. I don't know how that's so difficult to understand for some people. It wasn't PR-speak when they said he's an unheralded player. It wasn't a coach pumping a guy's tires when Sully went to bat for him numerous times. They liked JJ, and I'm still shocked they bought him out.

I expect more of the same from Ceci. Excuses thrown about left and right for why he's struggling. The coach saying they like what they see from the guy and think he's a real important piece of the bottom pairing. They'll laud his PK ability, as if it's some kind of special skillset and not something quite literally anyone can do.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Mark Madden just said that the Pens are so happy with Matheson they're considering bumping him up to the 2nd pairing and demoting Pettersson to the 3rd pairing.

They're talking him up alot. I hope he's worth the hype...and contract.

Don't know if I'm on the hype train, but I do think his best chance at success is playing alongside the best defensive blueliner in the league last season in Marino.

 

[Darren McCord]

It’s more concerning to me that JR saddled himself with JJ, despite all the massive red flags, has to buy him out after he couldn’t get rid of the guy.... then...goes out and signs a younger version of the guy (JJ is a better PKer, but whatever).

Like you said, at least it’s a one year deal, but it’s troubling any coaching staff/GM would watch CC and think:

- he can play this system
- he’s good
- he’s not a ticking time bomb rolled into a train wreck

Maybe I’ll be wrong, maybe what I saw in Toronto magically goes away with TR coaching him and sprinkling some IQ on him.

I do not expect TR to fix him. My hope is that the top 5 dmen are better this year and the 6th dmen can be a neutral player. Marino is still growing and could be better. Ditto for Petts. People forget last year was his 2nd full season. If Matheson can rebound into a smooth offensive number 5 then the defense as a whole will be sooo much better.

TR doesn't need to fix CC. If he can help the top 5 all the way up to Letang be consistent and steady the 6th dmen won't matter. I think that is more probable than making CC magically good.

They just need the 6th dmen to not be a negative value. Between Riikola/Ruh/Ceci just play the one who is doing that the best and hope to get one can become a positive.

 

[Flying Dego]

Don't know if I'm on the hype train, but I do think his best chance at success is playing alongside the best defensive blueliner in the league last season in Marino.

Ya...I think most can see why Matheson-Marino needs tested. The dividends are huge if they click...I mean if Matheson rounds into form we're looking at close to a 1st pairing assuming Marino is still unreal.

Petts-Marino is a fine 2nd line but I think it's ceiling is limited compared to the other option.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Funny. The entire board was arguing that he should sit Maatta which he did and he still gets crucified for it.

That's fair, I suppose. Perhaps he wasn't in the best spot personnel-wise. But last year?

I'm not sure why I should be expected to trust his decisions at this point. I give credit where it's due. He's certainly not ALL bad. But I'm kinda tapping my toes and looking at my watch this point when it comes to this guy and I think that's perfectly fair.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I think that's a little revisionist. First, "Letang trying to do to much due to lack of depth" is a non-sense statement. Letang is one man and his pairing partner was Dumoulin for the vast majority of his icetime and at the time, Dumo was a top 2 caliber dman. Each time Letang is on the ice, the "lack of depth" would be irrelevant to his on-ice performance. Now, if the lack of depth led to Rudwedel being his partner, that would be a good argument.

Cole wrote his own ticket out of town the same a Kessel did. You're right, it didn't have to happen but it's not like Cole wasn't in charge of his own destiny. And as I said, they didn't "dismantle" the defense. In 2017 the pairings were:

Dumo-Hainsey
Maatta-Schultz
Cole-Daley

In 2018 it was:

Dumoulin-Letang
Oleksiak-Schultz
Maatta-Ruhwedel

So we really only changed out two guys - Cole and Daley. Daley left in free agency and signed at a price we couldn't afford. Cole was sent out for a big 3C piece in Brassard which bolstered the forward depth in a big way. They added Oleksiak. And Rudwedel was brought in from depth. I hardly call that "dismantling" at least by any reasonable terms. Was it better in 2017? Sure. But Daley and Cole also signed for big money in free agency and in a cap world, sometimes you can't keep all of the guys you want. When players leave through necessity, you do your best to rebuild with what you have and what you can get.

Brassard being BS is hindsight. At the time, that was a the slamdunk move that everyone viewed as putting us over the top. Everyone was happy to see Reaves gone as well.

2018 was...

Dumoulin, Letang
Matta, Schultz
Oleksiak, Ruhwedel

Playoffs.

Brassard was not a slam dunk. In terms of his production, sure. But his use was highly contested to work here not being of the 3rd line center type knowing he'd not get top two line center use or, or top PP to get that production out of him. It was a Hail Mary, swing for the fences, out of desperation, way over paying, move.

It's very much.... "The Bridge Too Far." The proof is what they went through, spent to bring one guy in with that kind of question mark to fill a defensive role he's not played.

It was a slam dunk more to fail. A very, very expensive one, I might add.

I'll finish off with Letang.

He very much went full out being the only player who could carry the puck up the ice with Kessel gone to watch him pull up and just give the puck away. I have that play burned into my memory. Burned.... As in, doing it over and over, BURNED!!!

He was far from the only guy doing it.

The problem came in as the other teams went the other way and buried those in odd man breaks the other way. I want to say you could set your watch to it. Oh, you can.

 

[Ryder71]

Mark Madden just said that the Pens are so happy with Matheson they're considering bumping him up to the 2nd pairing and demoting Pettersson to the 3rd pairing.

They're talking him up alot. I hope he's worth the hype...and contract.

Matheson should play with Marino, if for no other reason that Marino can help mitigate Mathesons poor decision making at times. That said, there is a lot of potential upside there as both are very mobile.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I do not expect TR to fix him. My hope is that the top 5 dmen are better this year and the 6th dmen can be a neutral player. Marino is still growing and could be better. Ditto for Petts. People forget last year was his 2nd full season. If Matheson can rebound into a smooth offensive number 5 then the defense as a whole will be sooo much better.

TR doesn't need to fix CC. If he can help the top 5 all the way up to Letang be consistent and steady the 6th dmen won't matter. I think that is more probable than making CC magically good.

They just need the 6th dmen to not be a negative value. Between Riikola/Ruh/Ceci just play the one who is doing that the best and hope to get one can become a positive.

I don’t know much about Matheson, but he apparently is a poor decision maker, and that will be a catastrophe with CC.

They better figure out a different pair, because CC needs a Marino type (good skater, high IQ) to help minimize the damage he can do.

 

[SEALBound]

2018 was...

Dumoulin, Letang
Matta, Schultz
Oleksiak, Ruhwedel

Playoffs.

Brassard was not a slam dunk. In terms of his production, sure. But his use was highly contested to work here not being of the 3rd line center type knowing he'd not get top two line center use or, or top PP to get that production out of him. It was a Hail Mary, swing for the fences, out of desperation, way over paying, move.

It's very much.... "The Bridge Too Far." The proof is what they went through, spent to bring one guy in with that kind of question mark to fill a defensive role he's not played.

It was a slam dunk more to fail. A very, very expensive one, I might add.

I'll finish off with Letang.

He very much went full out being the only player who could carry the puck up the ice with Kessel gone to watch him pull up and just give the puck away. I have that play burned into my memory. Burned.... As in, doing it over and over, BURNED!!!

He was far from the only guy doing it.

The problem came in as the other teams went the other way and buried those in odd man breaks the other way. I want to say you could set your watch to it. Oh, you can.

I mean, po-tay-to po-tot-o on the line up. Mine came from the Pens tweet before Game 6 vs Washington so....not sure what difference it makes.

Brassard was a well-rounded playoff warrior. Everything about the way he played when it matter most made it a great move. You are conflating with the initial idea with the end result. Go back to the roster threads and trade threads on it. Everyone was stoked and throughout the league (meaning on HF), everyone agreed it put us in a much better spot to three-peat. Did we spend too much? In hindsight...maybe...I mean, none of the assets we gave up have turned into anything so...I'm not too bummed out over the cost at this point. It got us 1.5 seasons of Brassard at $3mil. Again, end result was bad but the expectations and thought process (and cost) going in was solid and I don't blame JR one single bit for doing it.

And yeah, Letang was not great in 2018, there's no doubt about that but that has little to do with the "defensive depth" as you suggested earlier. Your statement is not incorrect, in fact, we agree for the most part. I'm just saying that the Dumo-Letang pairing and Letang's on-ice performance has nothing to do with who was on the 3rd pairing while Letang was on the bench. You're really going to have to re-explain what you meant with the initial statement.

 

[LOGiK]

I mean, po-tay-to po-tot-o on the line up. Mine came from the Pens tweet before Game 6 vs Washington so....not sure what difference it makes.

Brassard was a well-rounded playoff warrior. Everything about the way he played when it matter most made it a great move. You are conflating with the initial idea with the end result. Go back to the roster threads and trade threads on it. Everyone was stoked and throughout the league (meaning on HF), everyone agreed it put us in a much better spot to three-peat. Did we spend too much? In hindsight...maybe...I mean, none of the assets we gave up have turned into anything so...I'm not too bummed out over the cost at this point. It got us 1.5 seasons of Brassard at $3mil. Again, end result was bad but the expectations and thought process (and cost) going in was solid and I don't blame JR one single bit for doing it.

And yeah, Letang was not great in 2018, there's no doubt about that but that has little to do with the "defensive depth" as you suggested earlier. Your statement is not incorrect, in fact, we agree for the most part. I'm just saying that the Dumo-Letang pairing and Letang's on-ice performance has nothing to do with who was on the 3rd pairing while Letang was on the bench. You're really going to have to re-explain what you meant with the initial statement.

Was 2018 when Letang decided to go to the bench for a water break when the other team was coming into the zone?

That was one for the books.....

 

[Darren McCord]

I don’t know much about Matheson, but he apparently is a poor decision maker, and that will be a catastrophe with CC.

They better figure out a different pair, because CC needs a Marino type (good skater, high IQ) to help minimize the damage he can do.

Which is why I would separate Petts and Marino. Marino can cover for Matheson while allowing him some room to skate. The pair has a lot of upside.

Petts isn't the best skater but he isn't dumb. He plays a solid defensive game and is still filling out. I also think he can move the puck pretty well. He just has a muffin shot. He plays like a softer Left handed Dumoulin. But I think he could cover for some of CC mistakes.

 

[Rakell67]

Which is why I would separate Petts and Marino. Marino can cover for Matheson while allowing him some room to skate. The pair has a lot of upside.

Petts isn't the best skater but he isn't dumb. He plays a solid defensive game and is still filling out. I also think he can move the puck pretty well. He just has a muffin shot. He plays like a softer Left handed Dumoulin. But I think he could cover for some of CC mistakes.

Dumoulin plays like a left handed Dumoulin as well.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Which is why I would separate Petts and Marino. Marino can cover for Matheson while allowing him some room to skate. The pair has a lot of upside.

Petts isn't the best skater but he isn't dumb. He plays a solid defensive game and is still filling out. I also think he can move the puck pretty well. He just has a muffin shot. He plays like a softer Left handed Dumoulin. But I think he could cover for some of CC mistakes.

That is probably the only realistic option.

At least until the coaching staff realize CC is basically going to bring the same issues as JJ, without being a good PKer.

 

[LOGiK]

Which is why I would separate Petts and Marino. Marino can cover for Matheson while allowing him some room to skate. The pair has a lot of upside.

Petts isn't the best skater but he isn't dumb. He plays a solid defensive game and is still filling out. I also think he can move the puck pretty well. He just has a muffin shot. He plays like a softer Left handed Dumoulin. But I think he could cover for some of CC mistakes.

Guy is 24... a few seasons in the nhl... and people still think this?
He's 6-3 180 pounds... and will be there next season and 5 years from now.
He's not still filling anything out.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

I am hoping CC at 1.25 will be easier for him to sit. I don't agree with it but there is a lot of pressure to play shultz and JJ when they are making 5.5 and 3.25 respectively.

Riikola and CC make the same and sully seems to like and trust Ruh. I hope that helps him make the right choices and base it on play not contract.

I’m 99% sure Jacques Martin was the reason JJ played every night. He was responsible for the D in Pittsburgh. He’s the same man behind the Rangers D today... and guess what? They signed JJ after Martin joined

Who does that after watching him being bad for years? You can’t make this shit up

 

[Ugene Magic]

I mean, po-tay-to po-tot-o on the line up. Mine came from the Pens tweet before Game 6 vs Washington so....not sure what difference it makes.

Brassard was a well-rounded playoff warrior. Everything about the way he played when it matter most made it a great move. You are conflating with the initial idea with the end result. Go back to the roster threads and trade threads on it. Everyone was stoked and throughout the league (meaning on HF), everyone agreed it put us in a much better spot to three-peat. Did we spend too much? In hindsight...maybe...I mean, none of the assets we gave up have turned into anything so...I'm not too bummed out over the cost at this point. It got us 1.5 seasons of Brassard at $3mil. Again, end result was bad but the expectations and thought process (and cost) going in was solid and I don't blame JR one single bit for doing it.

And yeah, Letang was not great in 2018, there's no doubt about that but that has little to do with the "defensive depth" as you suggested earlier. Your statement is not incorrect, in fact, we agree for the most part. I'm just saying that the Dumo-Letang pairing and Letang's on-ice performance has nothing to do with who was on the 3rd pairing while Letang was on the bench. You're really going to have to re-explain what you meant with the initial statement.

I can live with that last part about Letang.

But Brassard...Nah...

Starts with Reaves (who was traded for Sundqvist, 2017 1st) and 2018 4th for Vegas to eat salary and Lindberg who ended being a dead end traded away for two throw away prospects.

2018 1st, 2019 3rd, Gustavsson, Cole for Brassard, Dunn, 2018 3rd(That 3rd got turned into a (Detroit 2nd "Hallander") which he went to Toronto with a 1st for Kapanen +)

Man this is messy.. Just going to get to the point.

That's...

1st 2017/2018/2020, 2019 2nd, 2019 3rd, 2018 4th, 2- 2019 4ths, Reaves, Sundqvist, Cole, Gustavsson, Hallander, Dunn E-rod, Bjugstad Brassard, Sheahan

for.....


McCann, Kapanen, 2.0 in dead cap space, Lindgren and Aberg (They re-signed E-rod not being qualified)

Edit: Forgot the 2021 7th conditional pick for Bjugstad.

Doesn't look so nice once you see what was wasted...

 

[Peat]

Guy is 24... a few seasons in the nhl... and people still think this?
He's 6-3 180 pounds... and will be there next season and 5 years from now.
He's not still filling anything out.

I didn't start to put on weight properly until 26-27. Lanky guys filling out late is a thing.

Not that I'm necessarily anticipating gains anytime soon or am even that bothered by it. He's a solid dman already and his next level isn't about physical play really, or more force on his shot or more muscle behind the skating although all these things would be nice, it's about moving the puck better.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don’t know much about Matheson, but he apparently is a poor decision maker, and that will be a catastrophe with CC.

They better figure out a different pair, because CC needs a Marino type (good skater, high IQ) to help minimize the damage he can do.

Matheson sounds like Jake Gardiner, if Jake Gardiner got dumber.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Fair point.

However, the logicial conclusion to that was not to change our identity after winning TWO CUPS in a row including one WITHOUT our #1 defenseman (who had a CS worthy run the year before) because we got bullied around a little.

We could have tweaked a few things, sure. But the whole "let's go bigger" thing was stupid. Did not help us get passed the Caps the following year in the REAL Cup finals (that series was the real finals in 16-17-18).

That honestly is a very overblown and not honest assessment of what happened. Bottom line is the Pens had two hard fought game 7 series wins against the Caps and went on to win the Cup both years. In 2018 the Pens again faced off against the Caps and lost a hard fought series and the Caps went on to win the Cup. The difference of that series was nothing to do with adding one or two bigger players and in fact we traded Reeves and he went on to make it to the Finals with the Knights. The difference between those close game 7 wins and the close fought loss was goaltending. Pens goaltending played great in 2016 and 2017 and Murray was outplayed in 2018 against the Caps goaltending. It is that simple and was the difference of winning those game 7's verses losing that hard fought series against the eventual Cup winner. Blaming that on Rutherford was completely ridiculous.

The 2019 team just got older and slower around the core just like what happened back in 2014 and 2015 with the Pens. It was time to rebuild the group surrounding the core back then and Rutherford quickly did that and totally transformed the group around the core from slow and old to fast and young. Rutherford started the same transition for this group in the middle of 2019 with the additions of players like McCann 22 and Pettersson 22 at that time to start getting the team younger. Players like Tanev, Marino, and Zucker made the team younger and faster in 2020. Pens have added more youth, speed, and skill this off-season with Kapanen and Matheson.

I see a lot of similarities with the transition from the team going from older and slower around the core to younger and faster like the Pens completed in 2016 as we have been doing these past year and a half. Gone are the players that got older and slower with age that helped those cup contending teams from 2016-18 and those players are replaced by many players young or in their prime (McCann, Kapanen, Zucker, Tanev, Pettersson, Marino, Matheson, Blueger, Jankowski, and Ceci).

So when you look at this group around our core of Crosby, Malkin, and Letang only Dumoulin remains on the defense top 6 from that 2016-18 teams. The only forwards kept from those teams are Guentzel and Rust. So only 3 players kept around the core which is a pretty quick transition starting in the middle of 2019 season. This team reminds me a lot of that 2016 team and are much closer developed than that group which still needed many additions and subtractions to do from the group that started that year. Players like Hagelin and Daley added and Scuderi leaving during that season. That team still wasn't perfect with smurf Sheary on the top line with an aging Kunitz who was not near the player he once was. The 2nd line had Hornqvist and rookie Rust so it wasn't built perfect either. Kessel and Hagelin helped make a strong 3rd line but that 4th line had average at best wingers in rookie Khunhackle and a shell of his former self Fehr. The point is that team was not perfectly built but won with playing a fast forechecking system with enough wingers with speed to make it work. This team has even more skilled and fast wingers than that group. I think this teams defenseman are equal or better than that group also but they still have to prove it.

Time will tell but I like this group even with the imperfections because I believe they have the wingers with the speed to play the system and are a better group of wingers than even that 2016 group.