Speculation: Trading Up III: Does Anyone Have Incriminating Photos Of Burnaby Joe?

[Sabresfansince1980]

anyone not knowing the joke, look up Men's Warehouse

But he looked great on his way out, and he still has those Dos Equis commercials to fall back on.

 

[haseoke39]

I cant even remember a player like that in traded in his prime as a rent a player. Hossa maybe? I dont think the THrashers did very well there.

Listen, I think we're having a breakdown in terminology here. Every player, regardless of how talented, is considered a rental when they're traded at the deadline on the last year of their contracts. "Rental" doesn't refer to how good the player is. It refers to how long you acquire the player for. If the buyer is lucky/interested, they might be able to get another contract signed before July, but they never pay more or less based on that.

 

[Paxon]

That he could be wrong? I mean, if Darcy tells you the sky is green, I'm going to at least ask for, expect, and analyze the reason for why he supposes that to be true.

The reason he gave was that once teams have spent all their UFA dollars, they'll be more interested in trading away assets for players, but I don't think he's right. We're trying to unload $7M players here. The cap is $64M. More teams will have less room, and the teams that wanted scorers/goalies the worst will have already gotten them. The only guys left on the market will be the ones who either (a) couldn't afford to throw money at players (in which case why would they be able to take on these contracts) or (b) just didn't want them badly enough, in which case why would they offer us the best deal anyways.

A team that really wants a top flight scorer/goalie is more likely to take one from you now with certainty, without the risk of having to bid with 29 other teams for a second rate one in July. That seems at least as persuasive to me as the argument that teams will want to trade more to you in mid-July. Also, consider this is a buyer's year. There's more players on the market with buyouts than usual. In a buyer's year, you never want to be the last person with merchandise on the market.

Compound that with this being a guy who notoriously likes to sit on his hands and wait in hopes that something shiny falls into his lap. That's his MO in the league. Yes, I'm extremely ****ing dubious when he tells you he's going to sit on his hands for a while and can't articulate a compelling reason why.

He could be wrong that the deals are going to get better, but he's not wrong about whether or not the deals he's getting now are worth trading Vanek for, because he essentially said as much. So what's he supposed to do? Just trade Vanek for nothing?

We are trading a $3.5m player by the way because we can and will retain salary. Any extension wouldn't kick in until next offseason when we'll see a very large cap increase.

How did he not articulate a compelling reason why? He said that the interest level isn't high. Sitting on his hands? If GM's aren't making offers they aren't making offers, he can't do anything to make them. He's not sitting on his hands, he is hard at work as this is the busiest time of the year. Darcy says that he expects interest to pick up so suddenly that equates to him sitting on his hands and turning down great offers in hopes that the best offer in history happens.

It's a week before free agency even starts and people are acting like Darcy's blowing the offseason. I think we've exhausted this convo as far as I go.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Listen, I think we're having a breakdown in terminology here. Every player, regardless of how talented, is considered a rental when they're traded at the deadline on the last year of their contracts. "Rental" doesn't refer to how good the player is. It refers to how long you acquire the player for. If the buyer is lucky/interested, they might be able to get another contract signed before July, but they never pay more or less based on that.

I just dont see how the Sabres even have leverage there. Its probably why we dont see players like Vanek on their last year traded at the dead line. It pushes the GM in a bad situation. You are basically forced to make a move or let the player walk.

 

[haseoke39]

I just dont see how the Sabres even have leverage there. Its probably why we dont see players like Vanek on their last year traded at the dead line. It pushes the GM in a bad situation. You are basically forced to make a move or let the player walk.

Yeah, that's the point. It happens every year. I want to say the majority of players traded at the deadline are rentals. Every year. Iginla was one this year, Jagr, Morrow, all those teams were in "take what we can for them" mode. That's.....what the deadline is pretty much about.

 

[haseoke39]

He could be wrong that the deals are going to get better, but he's not wrong about whether or not the deals he's getting now are worth trading Vanek for, because he essentially said as much. So what's he supposed to do? Just trade Vanek for nothing?

He doesn't get to just choose what Vanek is worth. He's worth what the market will bear. And he's not worth "nothing" now. He might not be worth what Darcy would like now, but I think it's just as likely that he's worth less in a month.

We are trading a $3.5m player by the way because we can and will retain salary. Any extension wouldn't kick in until next offseason when we'll see a very large cap increase.

Maybe. We retained something like $1.5M on Pominville. We can retain I think $5M max. So we can eat salary on one of those guys.

How did he not articulate a compelling reason why? He said that the interest level isn't high.

I don't care what the interest level is in static terms, I care that he has some reason to think the interest level will improve. That's the part where he didn't give a compelling reason. Nobody has money committed now. Why wait? Honestly, if there's no pre-draft moves, I think the odds get pretty good that they'll be here in October.

Sitting on his hands? If GM's aren't making offers they aren't making offers, he can't do anything to make them. He's not sitting on his hands, he is hard at work as this is the busiest time of the year. Darcy says that he expects interest to pick up so suddenly that equates to him sitting on his hands and turning down great offers in hopes that the best offer in history happens.

It's a week before free agency even starts and people are acting like Darcy's blowing the offseason. I think we've exhausted this convo as far as I go.

No, of course he's not sitting on his hands literally. I'm sure he's doing all his due diligence. He sounds like a hard working guy. Sitting on his hands means refusing to take the best offer available in this context.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Yeah, that's the point. It happens every year. I want to say the majority of players traded at the deadline are rentals. Every year. Iginla was one this year, Jagr, Morrow, all those teams were in "take what we can for them" mode. That's.....what the deadline is pretty much about.

I dont see why people are missing my point. Vanek is 29, a 1st line player. Thats not the type of rental you see traded. Normally its gritty player, a 2nd or 3rd line player, defense depth, or an aging player.

 

[haseoke39]

I dont see why people are missing my point. Vanek is 29, a 1st line player. Thats not the type of rental you see traded. Normally its gritty player, a 2nd or 3rd line player, defense depth, or an aging player.

....so? Does that change what we can do with him?

I mean, at this point, teams are likely to consider him a rental of sorts even if we trade him tomorrow. Unless they think their team is so special Thomas will want to stay.

 

[Paxon]

I dont see why people are missing my point. Vanek is 29, a 1st line player. Thats not the type of rental you see traded. Normally its gritty player, a 2nd or 3rd line player, defense depth, or an aging player.

Neither is a goalie yet you think that'd be a positive.

Vanek would get at least a 1st+ at the deadline. I'm not entirely sure what he'd get now. Hopefully we find out soon.

 

[krt88]

Found the picture

 

[Sabre Dance]

Neither is a goalie yet you think that'd be a positive.

Vanek would get at least a 1st+ at the deadline. I'm not entirely sure what he'd get now. Hopefully we find out soon.

Geez, you are saying right now we cant get a 1st plus for Vanek? Am I the only one missing something here?

I am saying Vanek's value will not change, could possibly drop. But Ryan Miller's value could change. Goalies are in demand at the deadline, teams with them are not normally willing to give them up. There are teams right now not interested in Miller for multiple reasons that may be interested in him at the deadline. Thomas Vanek on the other hand should have have every team interested in him right now. What team would not want a 1st line wing, 1 year at half price and negotiating rights?

 

[Prospector74]

...Thomas Vanek on the other hand should have have every team interested in him right now. What team would not want a 1st line wing, 1 year at half price and negotiating rights?

If we move Miller for whatever we can get, I understand. Vanek should be extended or return a decent haul (much greater than a mid 1st rounder). I'll be upset with Darcy if that is all we get back.

 

[Paxon]

Geez, you are saying right now we cant get a 1st plus for Vanek? Am I the only one missing something here?

I am saying Vanek's value will not change, could possibly drop. But Ryan Miller's value could change. Goalies are in demand at the deadline, teams with them are not normally willing to give them up. There are teams right now not interested in Miller for multiple reasons that may be interested in him at the deadline. Thomas Vanek on the other hand should have have every team interested in him right now. What team would not want a 1st line wing, 1 year at half price and negotiating rights?

"Goalies are in demand at the deadline" yet they're pretty much never traded at the deadline. Goal scorers are in demand at the deadline because they're traded every year.

I said he'd get at least a 1st+ (note the plus) at the deadline. That's the lowest. So yes, it is entirely conceivable that he'd get more at the deadline than he would right now sans extension. As I said several times, it's not probable, but it's more likely than it is that Miller's value will increase. You said we need to trade Vanek now but Miller can wait until the deadline. I'm saying the opposite. Having said that, I don't want to take either of them into the season unless the plan is to keep them. If we're getting rid of them I don't want them on the team helping us win games and chasing 9th overall.

 

[Prospector74]

Having said that, I don't want to take either of them into the season unless the plan is to keep them. If we're getting rid of them I don't want them on the team helping us win games and chasing 9th overall.

I want them signed to extensions or gone before camp. Mainly because trying to hold until the deadline risks injury and a frying pan/fire situation if we are competitive for a playoff spot.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

@JoshRimerHockey: If Hurricanes move #5 been told Sabres are the favourite. Deal involves Dman Tyler Myers to CAR

@DarrenDreger: Canes have 2 firm offers and a 3rd nibbling on 5th overall. Toronto is out. Carolina may wait until 4th pick to make a deal.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

Sounds like Myers could be gone if Carolina wants him

 

[sba]

Myers for 5 is dumb unless it's to get 5 and use 5/8 to get 1 or 2

 

[Rhett4]

Myers for 5 is dumb unless it's to get 5 and use 5/8 to get 1 or 2

If it's Myers for 5, it's at least better than the 8 + Myers for 5 rumor circulating earlier. How awful was that? Myers for 3 spots...right.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

I don't like Myers and his softness I his contract.

Myers for 5 is fine with me.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

Everything they say about Jones, Risto, and Nurse concerning the physicality and "mean streak".

Myers lacks that. He's laid back, it's not his fault, but he is.

 

[enthusiast]

If there's a trade I doubt its Myers for 5 straight up. 16 and Myers for 5+ maybe?

 

[Karate Johnson*]

If there's a trade I doubt its Myers for 5 straight up. 16 and Myers for 5+ maybe?

I read there is a deal contingent on the player we want being there at 5.

 

[enthusiast]

I read there is a deal contingent on the player we want being there at 5.

I wonder who that'd be. Barkov/Drouin? Expecting TB to go Nich?

 

[Karate Johnson*]

I wonder who that'd be. Barkov/Drouin? Expecting TB to go Nich?

I would think Barkov or Droiun. I can't imagine Darcy doing this for anyone else

 

[haseoke39]

And the dream is dead.