Trading Chris Pronger this off-season?

[GhostIsBae]

Chris Pronger has a 4.935M cap hit this season and next season while only making $535k in actual dollars both those years.

He won't be retiring because that will screw over the Flyers and he is on good terms with the management, but do you guys see a possible trade here?

Arizona is 16.8mil below salary cap floor (12 to re-sign, most are RFAs)
Nashville is 11.6mil below (have about 11 guys to re-sign though, few RFAs)
Sabres are 8.9mil below (but Pegula isn't shy about spending money, so I don't see this happening)

The most likely team to pull this off is Arizona. Do you see them taking on this contract to save about 4.5mil of real dollars (if they still are close to the cap floor)? Possibly ship them other defenseman (maybe manning + schenn/grossman/mcdonald?) along with pronger for a mid round draft pick. They still need to sign 3 guys and aren't exactly a destination team that good players will go to.

Move won't affect the coyotes since they don't spend to the ceiling, they could even buy him out and we retain some cash with another player, it won't cost them anything.

Any incentive for Arizona to do this?

For us, it would give us some cap relief, especially over the offseason where he counts on the cap as well as better maneuverability with the cap during the season.

Would Pronger working for DoPF have any bearing on a possible trade?

(From Capgeek, here are our options if we don't trade him)


OPTION 1: Build the injured player into their opening-day roster and have that roster fit as close to the upper limit as possible without exceeding it, then place the player on LTIR.


OPTION 2: Put the injured player on LTIR on the final day of training camp and, including the injured player's annual average salary or cap hit, build a roster that exceeds the upper limit by an amount that is as close as possible to the injured player's annual average salary.

Click to read more...

 

[Sawdalite]

Chris Pronger has a 4.935M cap hit this season and next season while only making $535k in actual dollars both those years.

He won't be retiring because that will screw over the Flyers and he is on good terms with the management, but do you guys see a possible trade here?

Arizona is 16.8mil below salary cap floor (12 to re-sign, most are RFAs)
Nashville is 11.6mil below (have about 11 guys to re-sign though, few RFAs)
Sabres are 8.9mil below (but Pegula isn't shy about spending money, so I don't see this happening)

The most likely team to pull this off is Arizona. Do you see them taking on this contract to save about 4.5mil of real dollars (if they still are close to the cap floor)? Possibly ship them other defenseman (maybe manning + schenn/grossman/mcdonald?) along with pronger for a mid round draft pick. They still need to sign 3 guys and aren't exactly a destination team that good players will go to.

Move won't affect the coyotes since they don't spend to the ceiling, they could even buy him out and we retain some cash with another player, it won't cost them anything.

Any incentive for Arizona to do this?

For us, it would give us some cap relief, especially over the offseason where he counts on the cap as well as better maneuverability with the cap during the season.

Would Pronger working for DoPF have any bearing on a possible trade?

(From Capgeek, here are our options if we don't trade him)


OPTION 1: Build the injured player into their opening-day roster and have that roster fit as close to the upper limit as possible without exceeding it, then place the player on LTIR.


OPTION 2: Put the injured player on LTIR on the final day of training camp and, including the injured player's annual average salary or cap hit, build a roster that exceeds the upper limit by an amount that is as close as possible to the injured player's annual average salary.

FWIW: Let me preface this by stating that I'm usually leery of the benefits of 'Small Market Teams' taking on players who cannot play for them simply because they have a lot of Cap Space that they'd rather not use... That said, this case is one that benefits them rather than the cases where they spend Cap/Cash on players that eat up Cap Space when a serviceable player can be had that would not only eat up Cap but actually help the Team -- I never understood that thinking -- since Pronger's Contract was so heavily frontloaded.

This case greatly benefits the Flyers by allowing them more Cap to sign FA players and/or resign their own players... and it can greatly benefit the Coyotes by allowing them to more easily reach the Cap floor without actually spending much more Cash... However, including the highlighted quoted players counteracts the benefits Arizona achieves, as I see it... especially MacDonald, who many people believe is greatly over-paid for too long a period... Schenn and Grossmann do not come cheap nor for such a long period, but can be replaced on the cheap by Arizona. I believe while it is better for the Flyers to include them, it is going a step too far making one of them a MUST in the Deal... Make the trade giving Pronger and somebody like Manning -- who is not greatly paid but helps the Coyotes on the ice while not hurting the pocketbook -- and maybe other minor assets... take on a low level pick and/or maybe a player you can put to use off their Roster... and call yourself lucky to have casted off the LTIR exception requirement for once and for all.

BTW: I often think about the futility of an Area like Arizona/Phoenix who fight like Hell to retain or obtain a Franchise in hopes of making money or gaining prestige... but want to do it on the cheap and not really worry about building a Team that may eventually actually win a Cup... or at least contend... in hope of a lightening in the bottle situation one Season where they can luck into a Cup. If you want an NHL Organization than go all out, including begging borrowing and stealing in order to ice the best you can. Hats off to Nashville for standing up to the Flyers and not allowing Weber to be stolen... hats off to Buffalo for finally getting an ownership who will spend and has a plan -- although they have spent foolishly and incorrectly in the past, causing a shedding of players and their Tanking -- But that I just me and one of my pet peeves... but I digress.

 

[GhostIsBae]

The reason I included MacDonald is because he is a second pairing Dman that a team like Arizona can have for many years. They might be having some roster fluctuations as a lot of their guys are expiring and won't necessarily attract good free agents without over-paying for them due to location/organization.

So while they build their team through the draft/FA, I don't see how having a guy like MacDonald would be a bad thing. With Cap rising every year, you are going to see contracts given out to quality defensemen soar. MacDonald is still fairly young at 28, maybe a little overpaid (flyers can add a low draft/pick/small salary retention?). He will be productive throughout his contract and won't be an albatross like some of the other contracts that have been traded around.

 

[Sawdalite]

The reason I included MacDonald is because he is a second pairing Dman that a team like Arizona can have for many years. They might be having some roster fluctuations as a lot of their guys are expiring and won't necessarily attract good free agents without over-paying for them due to location/organization.

So while they build their team through the draft/FA, I don't see how having a guy like MacDonald would be a bad thing. With Cap rising every year, you are going to see contracts given out to quality defensemen soar. MacDonald is still fairly young at 28, maybe a little overpaid (flyers can add a low draft/pick/small salary retention?). He will be productive throughout his contract and won't be an albatross like some of the other contracts that have been traded around.

To be it just seems to be counterproductive to make deals to meet the Cap Floor while maintaining as cheap an Organization as possible -- which goes hand and hind with operation as close to the Cap Floor as possible, or finagle to actually be below it on the Cash side -- yet taking on a players who is greatly overpaid, in most people's minds, and is underperforming to boot.

I understand your thinking on MacD but I honestly can't see how it benefits Arizona given that the bang for the buck is so abysmally small... Dare I suggest that you are using the thinking that we heard when he was signed to that long and costly re-signing?... The Cap will rise... the cost od D-men is abnormally high... he is young and talented... he will be around for years and be a mainstay allowing the Defense to become stable as it is being re-built... he is a good signing.

All of the above reason are basically what we were sold when Homer obtained him and I assume he and Hexy re-signed him for so long and so dear... And the opposite of then are basically the reasons that the Flyers want to move him. I just can't see Hexy trying to sell them the snake oil based on the same spiel he fed us that proved to be such a major miscalculation.

That said, the basic premise of the Pronger deal to a Small Market Team is a solid one... it is just the added enticement pieces that I see to be wanting. JMO... If Hexy can sell this than he has my full and enduring support and admiration... and I will even promise to never mention his Umberger acquisition ever again. I'm just not going to hold my breath.

Please don't take my disagreement wrongly... I'd love to see Pronger's Contract moved.

 

[GhostIsBae]

To be it just seems to be counterproductive to make deals to meet the Cap Floor while maintaining as cheap an Organization as possible -- which goes hand and hind with operation as close to the Cap Floor as possible, or finagle to actually be below it on the Cash side -- yet taking on a players who is greatly overpaid, in most people's minds, and is underperforming to boot.

I understand your thinking on MacD but I honestly can't see how it benefits Arizona given that the bang for the buck is so abysmally small... Dare I suggest that you are using the thinking that we heard when he was signed to that long and costly re-signing?... The Cap will rise... the cost od D-men is abnormally high... he is young and talented... he will be around for years and be a mainstay allowing the Defense to become stable as it is being re-built... he is a good signing.

All of the above reason are basically what we were sold when Homer obtained him and I assume he and Hexy re-signed him for so long and so dear... And the opposite of then are basically the reasons that the Flyers want to move him. I just can't see Hexy trying to sell them the snake oil based on the same spiel he fed us that proved to be such a major miscalculation.

That said, the basic premise of the Pronger deal to a Small Market Team is a solid one... it is just the added enticement pieces that I see to be wanting. JMO... If Hexy can sell this than he has my full and enduring support and admiration... and I will even promise to never mention his Umberger acquisition ever again. I'm just not going to hold my breath.

Please don't take my disagreement wrongly... I'd love to see Pronger's Contract moved.

Well, not necessarily, they play quite a bit of guys on ELC or <2m deals, so can totally afford a 5mil defenseman. I wouldn't mind if we pay 1m per year on his salary to lower it. Would like to see that spot freed up. Worst case scenario, we can just dump in AHL to free up his spot in the future if Snider's pockets wont mind

As far as umberger, i'm still waiting on that based on this year. He was playing hurt past season - okay. This season, there are no excuses. If he can be a 20 goal scorer and not be a liability on ice, I'll take it.

 

[Schwarbomb]

Pronger will be traded this summer. His contract can save a team a lot of money.

 

[Anthems]

Seeing Pronger still on our payroll annoys the absolute crap out of me.

 

[GhostIsBae]

Pronger will be traded this summer. His contract can save a team a lot of money.

That would mean the team we trade him to is below the cap floor to save the money. I'm not sure if these teams will be below once they fill their rosters.

 

[Laveuglette]

I don't see it happening.

 

[Sawdalite]

That would mean the team we trade him to is below the cap floor to save the money. I'm not sure if these teams will be below once they fill their rosters.

Uhhh... But would Pronger ever agree to be traded to such a Mickey Mouse Organization.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Won't happen. Every offseason there is talk of teams that are desperate to get to get to the cap floor and they will be interested in taking on such contracts...yet it never comes to fruition. I wouldn't hold my breath. It sounds nice and looks nice on paper, but I don't ever remember a team actually trading for dead cap space just to reach the cap floor.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Won't happen. Every offseason there is talk of teams that are desperate to get to get to the cap floor and they will be interested in taking on such contracts...yet it never comes to fruition. I wouldn't hold my breath. It sounds nice and looks nice on paper, but I don't ever remember a team actually trading for dead cap space just to reach the cap floor.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/8927270/tim-thomas-traded-boston-bruins-new-york-islanders

Thomas to the Islanders was.

 

[Prongo]

Also remember the report freidman did that said Hextall had talked to GM's about pronger last year but a deal couldn't be finished. This year it's much more likely IMO

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/8927270/tim-thomas-traded-boston-bruins-new-york-islanders

Thomas to the Islanders was.

Ok so it happened once since the cap was instituted (involving a player that at least had the potential to come back and play, or have value in his rights being traded). I still wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Prongo]

DFF, don't neglect the rumors from reputable sources that said we were in conversation with other teams last year about trading pronger. You take his 4 million salary away now and it is much more logical he could be moved for flexible reasons for the team acquiring him. Arizona I think will trade for him. I believe they will move hanzel this summer also which they will need to replace

 

[CREW99AW]

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/8927270/tim-thomas-traded-boston-bruins-new-york-islanders

Thomas to the Islanders was.

Sloppy fact checking on the writer's part.

Isles were above the cap floor when the Thomas trade was made.They had just signed Lubo.
They made the trade because Snow thought he might trade players before the season ended and he'd then be below the floor. He wanted the flexibility to move out salary.

http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2...mas-but-salary-rules-are-the-motivation/?_r=0
By getting Thomas and his $5 million salary, the Islanders rose comfortably above the salary floor in time to comply with N.H.L. payroll rules

The Islanders rose just above the salary floor of $44 million on Thursday morning when they activated defenseman Lubomir Visnovsky, who had been playing in his native Slovakia to deal with family issues but who returned to Long Island to join the Isles.

However, with both players signed, the Islanders were roughly $9 million above the floor.

 

[GKJ]

Seeing Pronger still on our payroll annoys the absolute crap out of me.

Especially since he's working for and being paid by the league. The Flyers should be able to walk away from the contract under that basis alone.

 

[Curufinwe]

I'm not gonna complain too much considering Pronger could quite easily retire right now and kill our cap for two seasons.

 

[EspenK]

Could just as easily trade him to a team that needs a LITR exemption. Toronto already took Horton maybe they take Pronger too?

 

[GKJ]

I'm not gonna complain too much considering Pronger could quite easily retire right now and kill our cap for two seasons.

If the league themselves are perpetuating the situation, Pronger "officially" retiring seems to not be on the table regardless

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

DFF, don't neglect the rumors from reputable sources that said we were in conversation with other teams last year about trading pronger. You take his 4 million salary away now and it is much more logical he could be moved for flexible reasons for the team acquiring him. Arizona I think will trade for him. I believe they will move hanzel this summer also which they will need to replace

I don't doubt that Hextall would like to get rid of the cap hit or that he was trying to trade him or will try to trade him. I just don't think it will happen. Try is the operative word.

 

[Sawdalite]

Could just as easily trade him to a team that needs a LITR exemption. Toronto already took Horton maybe they take Pronger too?

I don't get that because they would be having to take on the Caps Space that they would be using the LTIR Cap Exception on... I suppose if they were to trade actual usable Cap Space in the deal it would work for them, but I would think that it would have to be a dud player, and why would the Flyers want to take on a dud who would beef up their Cap? Seems to me it is a lot of spinning wheels and unnecessary putzing around on both sides; what would be good for one side would not really be good on the other side. Better to go the Small Market Team looking to reach the Cap Floor than the Big Market Team needing their own Cap relief Route... After all, the Flyers themselves need Cap relief.

 

[Sawdalite]

There is irony in the fact that the Teams, including the Flyers, that worked so hard trying to circumvent the Cap brought on the Over 35 Rule that is so unfair and is hampering Teams when the over 35 year olds are legitimately injured when you wuld be hoping that they could play... such as with Pronger.

As much as the circumvention brought on this mess, it is so easy to rectify it moving forward that would eliminating the circumvention. I have mention this various time before in various places over the years to no avail... All that has to be done is for the Rules to be changed and for all players to either be signed on one Season Contracts which Count on the Cap as the Cash paid in Salary... or, for the Cap hit on multi-Season Contracts to be determined by the Cash Salary paid -- I wouldn't know why multi-Season deals would be signed then, unless maybe to lock in a great Talent for the Team -- In either case there could be no front/back loading of Contract to lower Cap Hits that would be looking to Retirements to relieve. The NHL and NHLPA would need to buy in but I wouldn't see why they would not since the Over35 Rule now doesn't help anyone fairly... only maybe the older players who are getting paid for sitting at home and doing nothing; unless the NHLPA players are planning on doing so, why not eliminate the inane Rule that is hampering so many Teams?

 

[Curufinwe]

The over 35 rule doesn't matter much in Prongers case because without it the Flyers would still face recapture penalties if he retired early. They wouldn't be his full cap hit, but close enough. That's the situation Boston faces with Savard who was under 35 when he signed his contract.

 

[Sawdalite]

The over 35 rule doesn't matter much in Prongers case because without it the Flyers would still face recapture penalties if he retired early. They wouldn't be his full cap hit, but close enough. That's the situation Boston faces with Savard who was under 35 when he signed his contract.

That Recapture Penalty Rule was set in place after the fact and it also penalizes Signing Teams who trade away such players, if they retire... which I assume is one of the main thrusts of it. Pronger isn't going to retire, and neither are any other Players going to throw away big bucks for basically nothing. The Over 35 Rule matters in that it has hampered the Flyers and other Teams over the years and is nothing more than a slap on the wrist for their then legal past circumvention... The whole thing is that with a simple Rule change it could have been handles fairly going forward from the point of enactment... Sure the past signings would be screwed but it could set a fair situation for signing older players going forward in a manner where nobody circumvents anything... you pay as you go, and get what you pay for, and anybody can retire as they see fit... basically just like younger players can, and nobody gets hurt Cap-wise.