Trades: The one area where a lack of NHL GM experience hurts

Guy Boucher

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Oct 22, 2008
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I know you've likely answered this elsewhere, but sorry not privy to your earlier responses, so could you please expand on why you are certain trading Kessel later would have ensured us better returns?

The turmoil around the Leafs this last year destroyed the value of almost all Leafs players.

Kessel had a year comparable to Getzlaf in 2011 where he had only 11 goals (coincidentally, also the year Carlyle got fired in Anaheim), or like the Sedins in 2013 where they both had 50 points or less (also when Torts went nuts and got fired).

All those players were at a tremendous low after those seasons, dealing with terrible coaches and a circus around them. All of them would have had incredibly low value at the end of those seasons (remember what people were saying about the Sedin contracts after that year?).

The only difference is that none of them were traded at that point other than Kessel.

Add to that: this off-season produced dramatic lows in all it's trades and it was a perfect storm against the Leafs.

If they held unto Kessel and had him produce the way that he can, under a competent coach who could find a way to keep the heat of Kessel to *some* extent, there's no question his perceived value would have shot up as well.
 

buttman*

Guest
I think experience is being referenced in trades. And as illustrated above in the last 3-5 deals by Burke and Nonis. One can say they did very well.

Let's just ignore the Kessel, Stalman, Tlusty, Hayes, Kubina for Exelby... Then there were the signings of Komarsarik, Connolly, Liles...

This trade was a beaut:

To Toronto: 2011 1st round pick (#22 - Tyler Biggs)

To Anaheim: 2011 1st round pick (#30 - Rickard Rakell), 2011 2nd round pick (#39 - John Gibson)

If you want to talk EXPERIENCE -- the most experienced of them all -- Fletcher. He traded Steen for garbage.

Three cheers for experience. You can debate all you want but that "experience" missed the playoffs a ton of times and left the cupboards bare.
 

Suntouchable13

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Dec 20, 2003
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The turmoil around the Leafs this last year destroyed the value of almost all Leafs players.

Kessel had a year comparable to Getzlaf in 2011 where he had only 11 goals (coincidentally, also the year Carlyle got fired in Anaheim), or like the Sedins in 2013 where they both had 50 points or less (also when Torts went nuts and got fired).

All those players were at a tremendous low after those seasons, dealing with terrible coaches and a circus around them. All of them would have had incredibly low value at the end of those seasons (remember what people were saying about the Sedin contracts after that year?).

The only difference is that none of them were traded at that point other than Kessel.

Add to that: this off-season produced dramatic lows in all it's trades and it was a perfect storm against the Leafs.

If they held unto Kessel and had him produce the way that he can, under a competent coach who could find a way to keep the heat of Kessel to *some* extent, there's no question his perceived value would have shot up as well.

They just wanted to move on from him, that's all. They did not want a cloud hanging over them. All we would ever hear about is "when will Kessel be traded?" You think it's a good idea to have a player here who knows he will be traded? You'll just get the mentally checked out Phil.
 

Guy Boucher

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Oct 22, 2008
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They just wanted to move on from him, that's all. They did not want a cloud hanging over them. All we would ever hear about is "when will Kessel be traded?" You think it's a good idea to have a player here who knows he will be traded? You'll just get the mentally checked out Phil.

Well, this is the argument to have rather than whether it was GM experience behind this.

A lot of guys are being traded for very little. It is a bad time to make trades.
 

napoleon in rags

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Jun 17, 2009
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I think experience is being referenced in trades. And as illustrated above in the last 3-5 deals by Burke and Nonis. One can say they did very well.

Absolutely! I'll even add that if we ignore all of JFJ's bad moves that even he did well! Why stop there ; even the second coming of Fletcher was a success if we discard his mishandling of the Muskoka 5 and his acquisition of Stempniak. Brilliant managerial acumen, the lot of them.
 

ClarkSittler

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Mar 25, 2014
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Forget about what other fan bases or other GM's thought of Phil. Based solely upon what Shannahan & Co. accepted as a return for Kessel should tell Leaf fans what this organization thought of that asset.
They thought so poorly of the player that he was essentially a buy out. Despite his scoring touch management wanted so badly to rid themselves of this distraction, his contract and anything related to Phil that they decided we'd rather simply flush him than have him possibly taint the waters moving forward. Do you not think if Babcock thought he might be able rehabilitate Phil that he would have told management to keep the winger? Babcock would rather coach a less skilled team than spend untold hour's minimizing Kessels negative effect.
A player with his offensive skills normally would have had other clubs trying to outbid each other in hopes of getting this 'elite' talent. Ask yourself why no other clubs wanted him and those even remotely interested were asking the Leafs to retain more contract & offer lesser returns? Too much risk for questionable return. IMO, simply getting rid of the player & 85% of his contract & term is the best return.

This is a great point that hasn't been brought up enough. If Babcock really wanted Kessel here, he'd still be a Leaf. I'll trust his judgement over a bunch of Kessel fanboys on the internet.
 

glue

Registered User
Jan 30, 2006
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The turmoil around the Leafs this last year destroyed the value of almost all Leafs players.

Kessel had a year comparable to Getzlaf in 2011 where he had only 11 goals (coincidentally, also the year Carlyle got fired in Anaheim), or like the Sedins in 2013 where they both had 50 points or less (also when Torts went nuts and got fired).

All those players were at a tremendous low after those seasons, dealing with terrible coaches and a circus around them. All of them would have had incredibly low value at the end of those seasons (remember what people were saying about the Sedin contracts after that year?).

The only difference is that none of them were traded at that point other than Kessel.

Add to that: this off-season produced dramatic lows in all it's trades and it was a perfect storm against the Leafs.

If they held unto Kessel and had him produce the way that he can, under a competent coach who could find a way to keep the heat of Kessel to *some* extent, there's no question his perceived value would have shot up as well.

I see what you're saying..the possibility that his value could go up was there, but I think there are other things that also have to be considered.

1. Possibility that his value could have gone down further - Fact is, the thought that his value could go up is as much of a guess that his value could go down further. The 2nd half of last season was literally one of Kessel's worst ever - i'll give you that. But how do we know being in Toronto one more year would have drastically changed that? The expectations that this management team has, as well as Babcock, appears to be a lot higher then even previous regimes as far as the players go, so we don't truly know how Kessel might have reacted under that environment - I would say the mgmt would have a better understanding of that then us fans.
2. Cap availability/Team interest mid year - I think its a risk to assume that mid year there 'may' be more teams interested in Kessel and be willing to create space for him. It seemed Pitts right now was the only team that really made a serious offer, that was clear from what Shannahan said, teams kicked tires, but nobody made a serious offer. And if Pitts didn't fit Kessel now, they were heading in a different direction. Thats gotta put the question of whether teams really were interested in 7 years of Phil Kessel at 8 Mil.
3. Rebuild/Culture change - Would have been awfully odd of management to preach culture change and bring back the exact same core group of players after repeated failures. We needed to move on from Kessel so the organization could move on even if the return wasn't the greatest. And I for one, though not totally satisfied, don't think the return was the worst ever. We did come away with 2 1sts, a 2nd and a 3rd. Pretty much what we paid for Kessel when we got him (no logic in suggesting that the 2 1sts we gave up were Seguin and Hamilton as thats on Burke for misjudging the talent of where the leaf team was when the trade was made).

I know you're suggesting keeping Kessel to start the year was your preference, but ultimately all teams knew Leafs needed to move him at some point, so to me there's really no guarantee holding onto him would have changed what could have been returned.

Maybe we agree to disagree that this is something that could have waited, as I really don't know if thats true. But I do appreciate your explanation and think it certainly has logic (unlike some posters here with opposing views but complete lack of logic and hence makes for pointless back and forth).
 

BlueBaron

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May 29, 2006
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This is a great point that hasn't been brought up enough. If Babcock really wanted Kessel here, he'd still be a Leaf. I'll trust his judgement over a bunch of Kessel fanboys on the internet.

Not sure you guys understand the coaching position. The GM usually decides on the roster and the coach deals with what he is given. While I have no doubt Babcock's opinion is taken seriously I think the culture decision was made long before Babs got here. They told him their plan, it would be pretty silly if they said "Kessel is gone" and he said "Ok, I'll take the job" and then later " I want you to keep Kessel".
 

ClarkSittler

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Mar 25, 2014
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Not sure you guys understand the coaching position. The GM usually decides on the roster and the coach deals with what he is given. While I have no doubt Babcock's opinion is taken seriously I think the culture decision was made long before Babs got here. They told him their plan, it would be pretty silly if they said "Kessel is gone" and he said "Ok, I'll take the job" and then later " I want you to keep Kessel".

I'm well aware of the responsibility of both roles but if you don't think a Gold Medal winning coach with a Stanley Cup ring has input into player personnel I don't know what to tell you.

Shanahan is on record saying Babcock's opinion will be strongly considered when it comes to our roster:

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/05/21/leafs-will-have-to-man-up-for-babcock

Make no mistake: Babcock will have a major input in personnel decisions, a point acknowledged by the man he once coached and is now his boss, Leafs president Brendan Shanahan.

Bottom line, if Babcock really wanted Kessel here, he'd still be a Leaf.
 

Gabriel426

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Jun 30, 2015
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The Raptors traded away Rudy Gay for nothing and somehow due to that trade, the team got a lot better and became division champs twice.

What I am saying is that, getting Phil away should increase the chances of Leafs finishing at the bottom with a better chance to get higher picks in 2016,like Matthew or Brown....on the flip side, if somehow Babcock and others managed to make the team plays better and sneak into the playoff, it will just show that Phil was indeed the cancer and problem on the Leafs. Either way you look at it, it benefits the Leafs in the short and long run without him being a Leafs.

Most importantly, I think this trade will come down to can Pitts win the cup before Leafs being a strong competitive side. Which to me, if the Leafs can be competitive and shows there is no chaos in the dressing room, there is a very high Chance Stamkos will be sign and plays for the Leafs in the next off season since Babcock and Leafs are huge draw and attracts players.
 

BlueBaron

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May 29, 2006
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I'm well aware of the responsibility of both roles but if you don't think a Gold Medal winning coach with a Stanley Cup ring has input into player personnel I don't know what to tell you.

Shanahan is on record saying Babcock's opinion will be strongly considered when it comes to our roster:

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/05/21/leafs-will-have-to-man-up-for-babcock

Make no mistake: Babcock will have a major input in personnel decisions, a point acknowledged by the man he once coached and is now his boss, Leafs president Brendan Shanahan.

Bottom line, if Babcock really wanted Kessel here, he'd still be a Leaf.

You quoted it, but clearly didn't read it.
 

burpsalot

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Feb 12, 2015
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Good thing the Blues had an experienced GM in place so they wouldnt get hosed in a trade.

Oh, wait. They did!


I've noticed most "in the know" hockey people & management seem to be saying that Toronto did a pretty good job with this trade & got about as good as you can get.

With some of the emotion subsiding I see many of the fans are now warming up to the deal. It appears that Kapanen may be a top 3-5 prospect on the Leafs & appears he may be a solid addition (despite Simmons silly comments). Ex Leaf, Tom Fitzgerald of the Penquins seems to be a very big fan of his. Harrington could develop into a 3-6 D & has great leadership skills & character. Spaling, much like Winnik, but 3 years younger & described as a coaches dream. He could bring a 2nd or 3rd at TDL if Leafs don't try to extend him.

I'm sure there will be some Kessel fans that never like this trade. Others on the fence, some that just ***** to ***** & at least one insanely repetitive individual that tries to create anti-Shanahan & Dubas drama whenever he can. Oh well, there will never be 100% agreement.

With Kessel gone, this really seems to be the catalyst & defining moment of the rebuild. Prospects accumulating, more of the core to trade & 12 draft picks, so far, in 2016 & all without a GM, oh my.
 

tzinc

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Oct 20, 2009
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you know there was a time when Burke was seen as the genius now
Shanny and Co. are the geniuses - they have done nothing more so far then Burke did
their big add is a winger (they are going to try and make into a center)
they gave away Kessel
they are paying an awful lot of money to a coach not expected to win

this start honestly doesn't look any more promising than Burke's
well at least he was the GM of a Cup Winning team
 

BlueBaron

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May 29, 2006
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you know there was a time when Burke was seen as the genius now
Shanny and Co. are the geniuses - they have done nothing more so far then Burke did
their big add is a winger (they are going to try and make into a center)
they gave away Kessel
they are paying an awful lot of money to a coach not expected to win

this start honestly doesn't look any more promising than Burke's
well at least he was the GM of a Cup Winning team

WOW !

You have put a fantastic effort into being negative. WE ARE REBUILDING ! We are going to build through the draft ? Their "big add" was a draft pick, quite a bit different than how Burke got Kessel. In fact I cannot imagine two regimes with less in common.

One cared about size and physicality the others rate skill higher.

One wanted a quick retool the other says it will be a long painful process.

One kept non core players at the deadline the other traded them for draft picks.

They basically have nothing in common. :shakehead
 

RyanOhReally

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Jan 21, 2015
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Why do people here make it seem like Kapanen isn't a great get? We got our 2 1st rounders and a second (2 just happened to already be picked). I'm not a fan of Harrington's, wasn't one even when he was in Junior. But Kapanen is a Blue Chip prospect. Oh, the first is going to be a late round pick? So was the one we got from Nashville. And it turned into Dermott, Bracco and Dzierkals. I'll trust this management group on what we got back. We got back a potential Patrick Sharp-esque winger in Kapanen, a first round pick for Hunter to utilize, a defensive defenceman with some pedigree and a decent roster player all for a one dimensional, 'franchise' player coming off of his worst year in 7 seasons. Yeah he'll get 50 goals in pittsburgh, but he wasn't getting that here so why does it matter? We're in a rebuild and we got a solid package back.

Compare this trade to JFJ's/Burke's/Nonis' trades and it gets even better.
 

Super Mega

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Jun 29, 2013
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Why do people here make it seem like Kapanen isn't a great get? We got our 2 1st rounders and a second (2 just happened to already be picked). I'm not a fan of Harrington's, wasn't one even when he was in Junior. But Kapanen is a Blue Chip prospect. Oh, the first is going to be a late round pick? So was the one we got from Nashville. And it turned into Dermott, Bracco and Dzierkals. I'll trust this management group on what we got back. We got back a potential Patrick Sharp-esque winger in Kapanen, a first round pick for Hunter to utilize, a defensive defenceman with some pedigree and a decent roster player all for a one dimensional, 'franchise' player coming off of his worst year in 7 seasons. Yeah he'll get 50 goals in pittsburgh, but he wasn't getting that here so why does it matter? We're in a rebuild and we got a solid package back.

Compare this trade to JFJ's/Burke's/Nonis' trades and it gets even better.

agree 100%

this trade came from extreme weakness and the return was decent.
 

Semantics

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Jan 3, 2007
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Why do people here make it seem like Kapanen isn't a great get?

I can think of a few reasons

1. PIT hasn't been perceived as a great drafting team of late.

2. PIT has been a lot higher on the two d-men, since they're further along in development. Some fans think we're getting a 3rd rate prospect, they don't realize he's just younger and could be just as good as the other two.

3. He was picked #22. That's the Biggs/Gauthier region, bad juju.

4. An idiot PIT reporter said he was a third liner.

But looking more closely at him after the trade, he does seem to be an excellent prospect, and if the Leafs are high on him I trust them.

We got our 2 1st rounders and a second (2 just happened to already be picked).

Yes, also a lot of people are underrating the 3rd. The difference in value between say #54 and #84 is quite small (35 points, vs 126 points for #24-#54). People are saying we just moved up from a 2nd to a 1st, but I prefer to think of it as we acquired a 1st and downgraded PIT's 2nd a little.

Compare this trade to JFJ's/Burke's/Nonis' trades and it gets even better.

I don't think Nonis would have had the balls to make this trade TBH. He was afraid to make any big trades involving significant roster players, I think he was probably like half the people around here and got attached to our players and overvalued them. He was scared of losing guys to UFA too, that's why Kessel and Phaneuf got such monster deals in the first place.
 

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