Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals 2019-20 PART VIII

[GCK]

Show me a trade where he didnt trade for futures he has done well in. He has been taken to the cleaners and the Karlsson trade was pure luck.

I don’t think we got fleeced in the Duchene deal.
We gave a 1st, Turris and a B prospect in Bowers for a 1st line centre. That’s not bad for a non rental 1st line centre. The fact we bottomed out and the pick was 4OA is unlucky by your definition based on the EK trade being lucky.

 

[Sweatred]

Dorion would be foolish to trade 3 and 5. He gets two shots to hit on at least one good player. He may hit on both.

 

[BondraTime]

I don’t think we got fleeced in the Duchene deal.
We gave a 1st, Turris and a B prospect in Bowers for a 1st line centre. That’s not bad for a non rental 1st line centre. The fact we bottomed out and the pick was 4OA is unlucky by your definition based on the EK trade being lucky.

The Avs got an extra 1st and prospect (1st rounder 3 months prior) added onto an already better package of guys from Nashville (Turris’ value) for Duchene compared to what we got for Stone, who was signed for 8 years instead of 1. Then you can add in what the value of that 1st ended up being, but should be seen as a sunk cost.

Looking at both deals, both with Ottawa as a Control group, we either did extremely bad in one, or extremely bad in the other, or both. I see us doing bad in both.

 

[GCK]

The Avs got an extra 1st and prospect (1st rounder 3 months prior) added onto an already better package of guys from Nashville (Turris’ value) for Duchene then we got for Stone, who was signed for 8 years instead of 1. Then you can add in what the value of that 1st ended up being, but choice be seen as a sunk cost.

Looking at both deals, both with Ottawa as a Control group, we either did extremely bad in one, or extremely bad in the other, or both. I see us doing bad in both.

I don’t see any reason to include what Colorado got from Nashville since I listed what was in and out for the Sens.

I feel we should have gotten more for Stone but and unless Brannstrom really progresses it’s definitely his worst trade.

 

[BondraTime]

I don’t see any reason to include what Colorado got from Nashville since I listed what was in and out for the Sens.

I feel we should have gotten more for Stone but and unless Brannstrom really progresses it’s definitely his worst trade.

Because that was the value for Turris, meaning that our package had that value whether we took it or not. We know how much Turris was worth by himself, it was Girard + Kamenev + 2nd, that’s what our piece was valued. That alone is worth way more than Duchene.

It’s the exact same trade as if it was phrased:
Sens trade Turris to Nashville for Girard + 2nd + Kamenev
Avs trade Duchene to Sens for Girard + Bowers Kamenev + 1st + 2nd + 3rd + Hammond.

They had the trade worked out, Sens knew Turris was going to Nashville and Nashville’s return was going to Avs as part of the return for Duchene.

 

[GCK]

Because that was the value for Turris, meaning that our package had that value whether we took it or not.

It’s the exact same trade as if it was phrased:
Sens trade Turris to Nashville for Girard + 2nd + Kamenev
Avs trade Duchene to Sens for Girard + Bowers Kamenev + 1st + 2nd + 3rd + Hammond.

They had the trade worked out, Sens knew Turris was going to Nashville and Nashville’s return was going to Avs as part of the return for Duchene.

Two things. The 3rd we shipped was to dump Hammonds salary. I don’t think Girard, Kamensky, Bowers a 1st + 2nd is too much for a #1 centre.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I don’t think we got fleeced in the Duchene deal.
We gave a 1st, Turris and a B prospect in Bowers for a 1st line centre. That’s not bad for a non rental 1st line centre. The fact we bottomed out and the pick was 4OA is unlucky by your definition based on the EK trade being lucky.

Huge difference between trading your current 1st round pick and immediately watching as your own team falls apart and finishes last in the league, and trading for another team's 1st more than a year away, and lucking into that team sucking due to a combination of mismanagement and injuries.

 

[Samsquanch]

Huge difference between trading your current 1st round pick and immediately watching as your own team falls apart and finishes last in the league, and trading for another team's 1st more than a year away, and lucking into that team sucking due to a combination of mismanagement and injuries.

Context eh...

I like how you conveniently left out the part that we had just gone to game 7 double OT of the ECF against the eventual champs, and this Turris trade was made to upgrade us at our weakest position by a country mile.

Expectations from everyone were sky high, and everyone was still highly optimistic at our chances when the trade was made. The 1st didnt have the value you seem to imply that it did at the time of the trade. Everyone expected it to be a pick in the 15-30 range, including Sackic.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Context eh...

I like how you conveniently left out the part that we had just gone to game 7 double OT of the ECF against the eventual champs, and this Turris trade was made to upgrade us at our weakest position by a country mile.

Expectations from everyone were sky high, and everyone was still highly optimistic at our chances when the trade was made. The 1st didnt have the value you seem to imply that it did at the time of the trade. Everyone expected it to be a pick in the 15-30 range, including Sackic.

We were 6th in the East the year of that playoff run and we obviously weren't a top team. Great playoff run, but we weren't an elite team on paper, even after trading a boat load for Duchene. Should have been obvious that lightning wasn't going to strike twice and another deep playoff run wasn't going to happen.

We had more losses between regulation and OT than wins when the Duchene trade was made. Should have at least waited until we knew we were a likely playoff team before trading our 1st.

Dorion overestimated the team like Murray did in 2013/14 when he dealt an unprotected 1st in the package for Ryan, after we had just beat the Habs in a playoff series with a team decimated by injuries. Should have taken a step back and asked if we were legitimate contenders before dealing our 1st round pick + more.

 

[TheNewEra]

We were 6th in the East the year of that playoff run and we obviously weren't a top team. Great playoff run, but we weren't an elite team on paper, even after trading a boat load for Duchene. Should have been obvious that lightning wasn't going to strike twice and another deep playoff run wasn't going to happen.

We had more losses between regulation and OT than wins when the Duchene trade was made. Should have at least waited until we knew we were a likely playoff team before trading our 1st.

Dorion overestimated the team like Murray did in 2013/14 when he dealt an unprotected 1st in the package for Ryan, after we had just beat the Habs in a playoff series with a team decimated by injuries. Should have taken a step back and asked if we were legitimate contenders before dealing our 1st round pick + more.

Wasnt this also a panic move because alfie left and fans were pissed?

Its also why we gave phillips an extra year on the contract extension

 

[GCK]

Huge difference between trading your current 1st round pick and immediately watching as your own team falls apart and finishes last in the league, and trading for another team's 1st more than a year away, and lucking into that team sucking due to a combination of mismanagement and injuries.

Colorado got our 1st a year and a half after the trade. Good try but its identical situations.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Wasnt this also a panic move because alfie left and fans were pissed?

Its also why we gave phillips an extra year on the contract extension

It was.

Murray's admitted that he had been negotiating with Anaheim for a while before the Alfie fiasco.

Murray was willing to make the trade for the same package, only with a second instead of the first while the ducks were demanding the first.

When alfie signed with detroit, murray decided to give the ducks what they wanted

 

[BoardsofCanada]

When it is all said and done, Colorado got Girard and Byram for Duchene. The rest of the deal was just noise.

And all this talk about Dorion overestimating the team is just nitpicking. We had a good team (on paper) and Dorion seized the chance. I applaud a GM that goes for it. It's not his fault the team on the ice crashed and burned. He assembled a good roster.

Hoffman - Duchene - Stone
Dzingle - Brassard - Ryan
Pyatt - JGP - Burrows
Smith - Thompson - Paarjarvi

Phaneuf - Karlsson
Chabot - Ceci
Boro - Oduya

Anderson
Condon

This was a solid roster. It's not Dorion's fault that Anderson sucked and Condon sucked even worse. THere was infighting in the locker room and the players probably tuned out Boucher.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Colorado got our 1st a year and a half after the trade. Good try but its identical situations.

We finished 31st both of the next two years, so that speaks even more to my point about the Sens being nowhere near as good of a team as that playoff run would have suggested.

 

[TheNewEra]

It was.

Murray's admitted that he had been negotiating with Anaheim for a while before the Alfie fiasco.

Murray was willing to make the trade for the same package, only with a second instead of the first while the ducks were demanding the first.

When alfie signed with detroit, murray decided to give the ducks what they wanted

yeah i could have sworn that was what happened. it doesnt excuse murray on the trade just wanted to make sure that I wasnt forgetting the situation

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

When it is all said and done, Colorado got Girard and Byram for Duchene. The rest of the deal was just noise.

And all this talk about Dorion overestimating the team is just nitpicking. We had a good team (on paper) and Dorion seized the chance. I applaud a GM that goes for it. It's not his fault the team on the ice crashed and burned. He assembled a good roster.

Hoffman - Duchene - Stone
Dzingle - Brassard - Ryan
Pyatt - JGP - Burrows
Smith - Thompson - Paarjarvi

Phaneuf - Karlsson
Chabot - Ceci
Boro - Oduya

Anderson
Condon

This was a solid roster. It's not Dorion's fault that Anderson sucked and Condon sucked even worse. THere was infighting in the locker room and the players probably tuned out Boucher.

Solid compared to what? I don't see a solid roster there. Solid top line that's it.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

We finished 31st both of the next two years, so that speaks even more to my point about the Sens being nowhere near as good of a team as that playoff run would have suggested.

THey should have made the playoffs or at least close. They didn't have to go on a run for it to be a good trade

 

[TheNewEra]

When it is all said and done, Colorado got Girard and Byram for Duchene. The rest of the deal was just noise.

And all this talk about Dorion overestimating the team is just nitpicking. We had a good team (on paper) and Dorion seized the chance. I applaud a GM that goes for it. It's not his fault the team on the ice crashed and burned. He assembled a good roster.

Hoffman - Duchene - Stone
Dzingle - Brassard - Ryan
Pyatt - JGP - Burrows
Smith - Thompson - Paarjarvi

Phaneuf - Karlsson
Chabot - Ceci
Boro - Oduya

Anderson
Condon

This was a solid roster. It's not Dorion's fault that Anderson sucked and Condon sucked even worse. THere was infighting in the locker room and the players probably tuned out Boucher.

Objectively speaking we traded our first line center for an upgrade. We had one scoring line and our 2nd line was inconsistent as ****. In our bottom 6 we had JGP thats it.

On defence We had karlsson and a rookie chabot. Phaneuf and ceci and oduya is enough said lol. Even boro was mediocre since his game improved recently.

Our goalie shitting the bed sucks and in sure the infighting was there but if you actually objectively look at that team its horrible lol

 

[Hale The Villain]

When it is all said and done, Colorado got Girard and Byram for Duchene. The rest of the deal was just noise.

And all this talk about Dorion overestimating the team is just nitpicking. We had a good team (on paper) and Dorion seized the chance. I applaud a GM that goes for it. It's not his fault the team on the ice crashed and burned. He assembled a good roster.

Hoffman - Duchene - Stone
Dzingle - Brassard - Ryan
Pyatt - JGP - Burrows
Smith - Thompson - Paarjarvi

Phaneuf - Karlsson
Chabot - Ceci
Boro - Oduya

Anderson
Condon

This was a solid roster. It's not Dorion's fault that Anderson sucked and Condon sucked even worse. THere was infighting in the locker room and the players probably tuned out Boucher.

I see a lot of names but only 7-8 NHL forwards, 3-4 NHL D and a mediocre NHL goalie.

It's not his fault he vastly misjudged the quality of his own team's roster, trading his 1st away and then finishing last in the league the next two years?

 

[BoardsofCanada]

You guys are all experts with hindsight. It must feel good to know exactly what should have happened when looking back in time.

 

[Micklebot]

I don’t think we got fleeced in the Duchene deal.
We gave a 1st, Turris and a B prospect in Bowers for a 1st line centre. That’s not bad for a non rental 1st line centre. The fact we bottomed out and the pick was 4OA is unlucky by your definition based on the EK trade being lucky.

This is one of those trades where percieved value of the pieces changed pretty drastically in short order.

When we presumably thought we were giving up a playoff teams first (mid to late) that pick was a lot less valuable than just before the lottery when had among the best odds of 1st OA,

When we were trading for Duchene, he was seen as a lower end 1st line center, having not really put up big numbers in a while. His percieved value likely sunk lower after the trade with his ice cold start, but the skyrocketed when he eventually find his groove. Now that he's in NSH he doesn't look like the player he was in OTT, did we pump and dump him? Were we just lucky that he produced in the same way we were unlucky that the 1st became 4th OA?

You can view each piece through multiple lenses and come to different conclusions. In the end though, one thing seems as though it can't be argued; the trade did not achieve the desired effect of solidifying ourselves as a playoff team, nor did it fill our #1 center spot long term or even medium term really.

Imo, we are worse off for having made that trade, but at the same time, i believe had we made the same trade a year and a half prior instead of the Zibanejad deal it would have been fantastic and that's not even taking into consideration how zibanejad evolved since leaving here.

I didn't like the trade at the time because it felt like we were kicking the can down the road when signs of our fall were already apparent.

 

[Samsquanch]

You guys are all experts with hindsight. It must feel good to know exactly what should have happened when looking back in time.

Its funny becasue in actuality I bet "those people" were fairly negative at the time of the trade, in their defense.

But they were negative before the trade too.. And at the draft..And at the TDL before that...and pretty sour in the summer too after FA hit and we signed that guy that wasn't theirs.

But at some point if all you take is a negative stance towards every single aspect of everything team related, you're basically a schmuck and not to be taken seriously. A broken clock is right twice a day after all..