Speculation: Trade Rumors & Roster Building Thread: Part XXVII: Jeff Gorton: A Troubaliever?

[JanErixon20]

An alternate view is that when the franchise moved to Winnipeg in 2011 it basically had a couple of NHL-caliber players, nothing on the farm (top prospect was Patrice Cormier) and they didn't even own an AHL team. They had essentially nothing to trade to effect any meaningful change at the NHL-level and still ice a team that would at least be competitive at the same time. So they enacted a draft and development policy and have been drafting efficiently ever since. It takes time for drafted players to enter the system, and they are now at the point in the cycle where drafted players are coming on-stream and the team is now transitioning toward youth. That takes time, the GM has done an amazing job during that time, the ownership supports him fully, and they actually are developing a very solid future:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/jets-window-opportunity-opening-sooner-later/

Cheers.

I recall an article written not to long ago saying how great the Islanders were going to be, but it was based on a bunch, if not all, of their prospects turning into legit pros.

Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. I guess we'll see how it works out for the Jets.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

It isn't about playing time or the money for Trouba. He just doesn't want to play for a ****** Canadian team thay hasn't won one playoff game.

 

[Gardner McKay]

To clarify, when they bought the team, Schefiele had yet to be drafted, FYI. That you include Antropov and Burmistrov under the list of NHL-caliber players is more than a little generous. They had to keep a portion of the balance in order to ice a competitive franchise in front of a building full of season ticket holders; no way were they going to debut a bare roster via a scorched earth policy, that isn't realistic.
Cheers.

I would be happy to continue this conversation with you via PM because it is interesting that we have such different takes. But this isn't the appropriate thread to discuss Winnipeg/Atlanta history. Now discussing Trouba, that is a different story.

It isn't about playing time or the money for Trouba. He just doesn't want to play for a ****** Canadian team thay hasn't won one playoff game.

Not true. He just doesn't want to play in Canada and if you believe the rumors it is because of girlfriend/father issues.

Family comes first to Trouba. Nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is how long it has taken Cheveldayoff to get a deal done. This dates back to early this year with all the rumors of a Hamonic/Trouba swap.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Look, I get it. If I was a WPG fan, I'd be pissed too.

But to run a professional organization, you need to make the tough, smart decisions. "Standing on principle" isn't one of them. "Standing on principle" = cutting off your nose to spite your face. You can't FORCE people to want to live/play somewhere. Part of building a successful organization is to make it an attractive place to play in its own right. And "giving it to" players who don't want to be there doesn't help any. The Rangers have a natural advantage when it comes to many (although not all) players due to being in NYC, but they also have a reputation as a top-notch club, who goes out of its way to help/accommodate players.

The "you'll play for us and like it" attitude is a remnant of the old mentality that players are chattel. They're not; they're people. I mean, have you ever worked somewhere you didn't like for professional/personal/environmental reasons? That doesn't change simply because you get paid more. I was an I-banker for 6 years. Most money I ever made. ****ing HATED it. One of the happiest days of my life was the last day in that career.

At the end of the day, Trouba and his family may well make the tough decision for their financial futures to sign (likely a short-term deal), but there's no way this situation ends up with Trouba in Winnipeg long-term. And it's a mistake on the part of WPG mgmt if they try to force that outcome. You wind up with an unhappy player, a dysfunctional locker room, and a reputation as a destination players don't want to go, because management will screw you over.

If I'm Chevy, I move Trouba for the best value I can, and get back to the process of building long-term success in WPG, including based on the assets I acquire in whatever deal I can strike.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Look, I get it. If I was a WPG fan, I'd be pissed too.

But to run a professional organization, you need to make the tough, smart decisions. "Standing on principle" isn't one of them. "Standing on principle" = cutting off your nose to spite your face. You can't FORCE people to want to live/play somewhere. Part of building a successful organization is to make it an attractive place to play in its own right. And "giving it to" players who don't want to be there doesn't help any. The Rangers have a natural advantage when it comes to many (although not all) players due to being in NYC, but they also have a reputation as a top-notch club, who goes out of its way to help/accommodate players.

The "you'll play for us and like it" attitude is a remnant of the old mentality that players are chattel. They're not; they're people. I mean, have you ever worked somewhere you didn't like for professional/personal/environmental reasons? That doesn't change simply because you get paid more. I was an I-banker for 6 years. Most money I ever made. ****ing HATED it. One of the happiest days of my life was the last day in that career.

At the end of the day, Trouba and his family may well make the tough decision for their financial futures to sign (likely a short-term deal), but there's no way this situation ends up with Trouba in Winnipeg long-term. And it's a mistake on the part of WPG mgmt if they try to force that outcome. You wind up with an unhappy player, a dysfunctional locker room, and a reputation as a destination players don't want to go, because management will screw you over.

If I'm Chevy, I move Trouba for the best value I can, and get back to the process of building long-term success in WPG, including based on the assets I acquire in whatever deal I can strike.

Absolutely outstanding post. The disconnect for a lot of people though is the perception that "best value" = scraps. Best value is likely 80-90c on the dollar. Considering the situation, expecting any more than that is foolish. Saying that Trouba can't return more than that is also foolish. It is, however, very unlikely.

 

[Crease]

I'm of the belief that Chevy is not going to blink and the owners support that. Their handling of Trouba sets an important precedent, for Chevy as a GM and for the Jets as a franchise.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Back to the subject of possible deals to acquire Trouba:

I absolutely think the Rangers should be focused on flipping Zucc, Nash, Klein, Staal, and dare I say it, Girardi, to complete their roster overhaul.

However, in a deal for Trouba, who can be a cornerstone on RD, I do still consider moving a Miller or a Skjei - the latter in particular. And I say that as a guy who has loved Skjei ever since he was drafted. But it's about roster/organizational optimization. We already have McDonagh. I see some McDonagh upside in Skjei, and he's blossoming before our eyes, but we don't have anyone like that on the right side. Obviously, you don't overpay, but if you can move a left side asset to get that guy on the right, you have to do it. Especially with Graves and Gilmour percolating in the minors.

Likewise, with Miller, I'd prefer not to move him, but if he can be the centerpiece, moving from a position of strength (forward depth) to fill a position of weakness (RD) in a hockey trade is something you probably have to do.

But again, if Gorts can orchestrate a deal around one of the older players and perhaps a prospect instead, that would be ideal. (How about Zucc + Graves for Trouba + a quality young forward/forward prospect not named Laine?)

 

[nyr__1994]

Look, I get it. If I was a WPG fan, I'd be pissed too.

But to run a professional organization, you need to make the tough, smart decisions. "Standing on principle" isn't one of them. "Standing on principle" = cutting off your nose to spite your face. You can't FORCE people to want to live/play somewhere. Part of building a successful organization is to make it an attractive place to play in its own right. And "giving it to" players who don't want to be there doesn't help any. The Rangers have a natural advantage when it comes to many (although not all) players due to being in NYC, but they also have a reputation as a top-notch club, who goes out of its way to help/accommodate players.

The "you'll play for us and like it" attitude is a remnant of the old mentality that players are chattel. They're not; they're people. I mean, have you ever worked somewhere you didn't like for professional/personal/environmental reasons? That doesn't change simply because you get paid more. I was an I-banker for 6 years. Most money I ever made. ****ing HATED it. One of the happiest days of my life was the last day in that career.

At the end of the day, Trouba and his family may well make the tough decision for their financial futures to sign (likely a short-term deal), but there's no way this situation ends up with Trouba in Winnipeg long-term. And it's a mistake on the part of WPG mgmt if they try to force that outcome. You wind up with an unhappy player, a dysfunctional locker room, and a reputation as a destination players don't want to go, because management will screw you over.

If I'm Chevy, I move Trouba for the best value I can, and get back to the process of building long-term success in WPG, including based on the assets I acquire in whatever deal I can strike.

I think this is the biggest part of the equation that Jets fans are missing. Sure, you do own the rights to the player for a period of time, and you can force that player to play for you for that period of time. However, players want out for various reasons and some more than others. If you take a hard line stance, it can come back to bite you. It could affect your ability to sign NCAA players in the future. Hell, it could affect your ability to sign anyone to an ELC if there are any doubts about going to Winnipeg if you know you are going to be stuck there with no hope of getting out until you are 27.

 

[RangerBoy]

Winnipeg wants something for Trouba which is not available in a trade. A comparable LD. Trouba should sit out the season. Turris signed a one year contract with Arizona but he was miserable there. Traded him in December. Or Trouba should sign a 1 year contract. Arbitration eligible next summer.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I think this is the biggest part of the equation that Jets fans are missing. Sure, you do own the rights to the player for a period of time, and you can force that player to play for you for that period of time. However, players want out for various reasons and some more than others. If you take a hard line stance, it can come back to bite you. It could affect your ability to sign NCAA players in the future. Hell, it could affect your ability to sign anyone to an ELC if there are any doubts about going to Winnipeg if you know you are going to be stuck there with no hope of getting out until you are 27.

They're offended. Their prides are hurt. I ABSOLUTELY understand that. And for fans, that's okay.

But your GM needs to be practical above all. You want him (or her if we ever get there) analyzing the situation with cold logic (which ironically ≠ treating players coldly), and optimizing his outcome. If he's operating like a ticked off fan, he is going to hurt the organization long-term.

 

[Riche16]

Look, I get it. If I was a WPG fan, I'd be pissed too.

But to run a professional organization, you need to make the tough, smart decisions. "Standing on principle" isn't one of them. "Standing on principle" = cutting off your nose to spite your face. You can't FORCE people to want to live/play somewhere. Part of building a successful organization is to make it an attractive place to play in its own right. And "giving it to" players who don't want to be there doesn't help any. The Rangers have a natural advantage when it comes to many (although not all) players due to being in NYC, but they also have a reputation as a top-notch club, who goes out of its way to help/accommodate players.

The "you'll play for us and like it" attitude is a remnant of the old mentality that players are chattel. They're not; they're people. I mean, have you ever worked somewhere you didn't like for professional/personal/environmental reasons? That doesn't change simply because you get paid more. I was an I-banker for 6 years. Most money I ever made. ****ing HATED it. One of the happiest days of my life was the last day in that career.

At the end of the day, Trouba and his family may well make the tough decision for their financial futures to sign (likely a short-term deal), but there's no way this situation ends up with Trouba in Winnipeg long-term. And it's a mistake on the part of WPG mgmt if they try to force that outcome. You wind up with an unhappy player, a dysfunctional locker room, and a reputation as a destination players don't want to go, because management will screw you over.

If I'm Chevy, I move Trouba for the best value I can, and get back to the process of building long-term success in WPG, including based on the assets I acquire in whatever deal I can strike.

Great post.

But the flip side is also true in that allowing a kid (who is universally valued), whom u drafted, to dictate that he doesn't want to play for u is also dangerous and sets a bad precedent.

Just playing devs advocate but if every kid gets drafted by WPG and thinks "doesn't matter, I'll hold out until CHI or TO calls" it's an unwanted perpetuation of how the NHL and potential drafteees/singnees view your Organization as well.

 

[Mikos87]

They're offended. Their prides are hurt. I ABSOLUTELY understand that. And for fans, that's okay.

But your GM needs to be practical above all. You want him (or her if we ever get there) analyzing the situation with cold logic (which ironically ≠ treating players coldly), and optimizing his outcome. If he's operating like a ticked off fan, he is going to hurt the organization long-term.

There's a lot more to it than that.

It's personal between the two parties.

Trouba was close to a player who had a troubled past in WPG and it's not Kane.

Some of my contacts from WPG said that they expected Trouba to ask out after his rookie year.

It's not just an exercise in nationalism, some players value their privacy.

 

[Kovalev27]

Let's not take it so lightly not every kid is going to just forfeit big money to put the screws to Winnipeg. Trouba sacrificing plenty here to do this. It's the exception to the norm doesn't happen that often.

 

[Player big P]

Great post.

But the flip side is also true in that allowing a kid (who is universally valued), whom u drafted, to dictate that he doesn't want to play for u is also dangerous and sets a bad precedent.

Just playing devs advocate but if every kid gets drafted by WPG and thinks "doesn't matter, I'll hold out until CHI or TO calls" it's an unwanted perpetuation of how the NHL and potential drafteees/singnees view your Organization as well.

But like, isn't that just how we ended up with Hayes and Vesey?

 

[Off Sides]

Look, I get it. If I was a WPG fan, I'd be pissed too.

But to run a professional organization, you need to make the tough, smart decisions. "Standing on principle" isn't one of them. "Standing on principle" = cutting off your nose to spite your face. You can't FORCE people to want to live/play somewhere. Part of building a successful organization is to make it an attractive place to play in its own right. And "giving it to" players who don't want to be there doesn't help any. The Rangers have a natural advantage when it comes to many (although not all) players due to being in NYC, but they also have a reputation as a top-notch club, who goes out of its way to help/accommodate players.

The "you'll play for us and like it" attitude is a remnant of the old mentality that players are chattel. They're not; they're people. I mean, have you ever worked somewhere you didn't like for professional/personal/environmental reasons? That doesn't change simply because you get paid more. I was an I-banker for 6 years. Most money I ever made. ****ing HATED it. One of the happiest days of my life was the last day in that career.

At the end of the day, Trouba and his family may well make the tough decision for their financial futures to sign (likely a short-term deal), but there's no way this situation ends up with Trouba in Winnipeg long-term. And it's a mistake on the part of WPG mgmt if they try to force that outcome. You wind up with an unhappy player, a dysfunctional locker room, and a reputation as a destination players don't want to go, because management will screw you over.

If I'm Chevy, I move Trouba for the best value I can, and get back to the process of building long-term success in WPG, including based on the assets I acquire in whatever deal I can strike.

This is assuming a whole lot.

What if Trouba will not sign anything because he wants to pick his destination, post signing he could be traded anywhere, even somewhere else he does not want to be.

What if he only has like two destinations in mind and neither team is offering more than something like Glass and a 2nd? (exaggeration but point) Does that make them a poorly run franchise cause they will not take it?

 

[Riche16]

But like, isn't that just how we ended up with Hayes and Vesey?

Precisely my point.

We can sit back and take advantage of these situations (though as pointed out last night they're not identical) but it would be a different story if Skjei and Buch decided they wanted to play for Tampa because it's cold here & McD, Nash and Miller were blocking them.

 

[Trxjw]

I'm of the belief that Chevy is not going to blink and the owners support that. Their handling of Trouba sets an important precedent, for Chevy as a GM and for the Jets as a franchise.

That is very true, but there's a fine line between setting a precedent of being a strong negotiator and just being a bully. It's not as if Trouba came out in September and announced he wanted a trade and surprised the Jets with his announcement. He allegedly asked to be moved in May and they've just been sitting on it waiting for a perfect offer to come in the door.

If the Jets hold on their position, they'll end up with one of two things: A guy wearing a Jets uniform for the rest of the season who has no desire to be there, or a depreciated asset who can't skate in the NHL for nearly a year. Neither is a good result for them from a high level, let alone if Trouba goes overseas and gets hurt. What a disaster that would be for everyone.

For every kid who stomps his feet and winds up with another team, there are hundreds of them coming through the league and playing where they wound up. Letting Trouba move to a new city isn't going to set some precedent that is going to unravel the CBA.

 

[True Blue]

But again, if Gorts can orchestrate a deal around one of the older players and perhaps a prospect instead, that would be ideal. (How about Zucc + Graves for Trouba + a quality young forward/forward prospect not named Laine?)

My distaste for trading Miller has been well documented, but one of the other items that will hinder a trade for Trouba is cap space. To get him, sign him and have enough money to sign some of the forwards over near future, they need to subtract two salaries. Nash's contract is up in two years, but they still need to manage cap space for those years. Girardi is more than likely untradeable. If Staal continues to play well, he may be, but he is actually playing well so subtracting him and adding Trouba will still leave you short on defensive depth. Klein? He is actually affordable.

 

[Trxjw]

If Trouba is really all about getting out of Winnipeg, I'd imagine a bridge deal could be a possibility for whoever lands him. Could alleviate some of the cap problems.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

They're offended. Their prides are hurt. I ABSOLUTELY understand that. And for fans, that's okay.

But your GM needs to be practical above all. You want him (or her if we ever get there) analyzing the situation with cold logic (which ironically ≠ treating players coldly), and optimizing his outcome. If he's operating like a ticked off fan, he is going to hurt the organization long-term.

Who is to say he isn't approaching it that way? Maybe he's receiving offers nowhere near acceptable value? Every other GM in the league knows this kid has him bent over a barrel. In fact, the only leverage the Winnipeg GM has is hoping Trouba comes to his senses under the specter that the clock is ticking on him flushing away an NHL season

 

[Riche16]

My distaste for trading Miller has been well documented, but one of the other items that will hinder a trade for Trouba is cap space. To get him, sign him and have enough money to sign some of the forwards over near future, they need to subtract two salaries. Nash's contract is up in two years, but they still need to manage cap space for those years. Girardi is more than likely untradeable. If Staal continues to play well, he may be, but he is actually playing well so subtracting him and adding Trouba will still leave you short on defensive depth. Klein? He is actually affordable.

One of the reasons I said I'm in the trade Zucc 4 him camp a few days ago. They may want a LD but unless they're taking Staal it doesn't work cap wise (and Staal isn't waiving to go to WPG)

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

My distaste for trading Miller has been well documented, but one of the other items that will hinder a trade for Trouba is cap space. To get him, sign him and have enough money to sign some of the forwards over near future, they need to subtract two salaries. Nash's contract is up in two years, but they still need to manage cap space for those years. Girardi is more than likely untradeable. If Staal continues to play well, he may be, but he is actually playing well so subtracting him and adding Trouba will still leave you short on defensive depth. Klein? He is actually affordable.

Asked...

If Trouba is really all about getting out of Winnipeg, I'd imagine a bridge deal could be a possibility for whoever lands him. Could alleviate some of the cap problems.

...and answered.

Also, the team could easily make an additional move, such as dealing Klein, yes, if they know they have Trouba.

 

[TheTakedown]

To clarify, when they bought the team, Schefiele had yet to be drafted, FYI. That you include Antropov and Burmistrov under the list of NHL-caliber players is more than a little generous. They had to keep a portion of the balance in order to ice a competitive franchise in front of a building full of season ticket holders; no way were they going to debut a bare roster via a scorched earth policy, that isn't realistic.
Cheers.

Antropov and Burmistrov were absolutely NHL players. The fact that they were shoe-horned into roles over their own head is on WPG management, and nobody else.

I'm of the belief that Chevy is not going to blink and the owners support that. Their handling of Trouba sets an important precedent, for Chevy as a GM and for the Jets as a franchise.

This will lead to Trouba either taking a one year contract and then screwing the Jets in Arbitration where he'll most assuredly get $6M that WPG does NOT want to pay him.

There's a lot more to it than that.

It's personal between the two parties.

Trouba was close to a player who had a troubled past in WPG and it's not Kane.

Some of my contacts from WPG said that they expected Trouba to ask out after his rookie year.

It's not just an exercise in nationalism, some players value their privacy.

That's huge--I did NOT know this about Trouba. Is it a player that played for Winnipeg or someone simply from Winnipeg that Jacob befriended?

Look, I get it. If I was a WPG fan, I'd be pissed too.

But to run a professional organization, you need to make the tough, smart decisions. "Standing on principle" isn't one of them. "Standing on principle" = cutting off your nose to spite your face. You can't FORCE people to want to live/play somewhere. Part of building a successful organization is to make it an attractive place to play in its own right. And "giving it to" players who don't want to be there doesn't help any. The Rangers have a natural advantage when it comes to many (although not all) players due to being in NYC, but they also have a reputation as a top-notch club, who goes out of its way to help/accommodate players.

The "you'll play for us and like it" attitude is a remnant of the old mentality that players are chattel. They're not; they're people. I mean, have you ever worked somewhere you didn't like for professional/personal/environmental reasons? That doesn't change simply because you get paid more. I was an I-banker for 6 years. Most money I ever made. ****ing HATED it. One of the happiest days of my life was the last day in that career.

At the end of the day, Trouba and his family may well make the tough decision for their financial futures to sign (likely a short-term deal), but there's no way this situation ends up with Trouba in Winnipeg long-term. And it's a mistake on the part of WPG mgmt if they try to force that outcome. You wind up with an unhappy player, a dysfunctional locker room, and a reputation as a destination players don't want to go, because management will screw you over.

If I'm Chevy, I move Trouba for the best value I can, and get back to the process of building long-term success in WPG, including based on the assets I acquire in whatever deal I can strike.

This post, this is a good one.

No matter what, the kid is human, and it would honestly look WORSE if Winnipeg shoe-horned yet another young player into a position that they are not ready for.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

That is very true, but there's a fine line between setting a precedent of being a strong negotiator and just being a bully. It's not as if Trouba came out in September and announced he wanted a trade and surprised the Jets with his announcement. He allegedly asked to be moved in May and they've just been sitting on it waiting for a perfect offer to come in the door.

If the Jets hold on their position, they'll end up with one of two things: A guy wearing a Jets uniform for the rest of the season who has no desire to be there, or a depreciated asset who can't skate in the NHL for nearly a year. Neither is a good result for them from a high level, let alone if Trouba goes overseas and gets hurt. What a disaster that would be for everyone.

For every kid who stomps his feet and winds up with another team, there are hundreds of them coming through the league and playing where they wound up. Letting Trouba move to a new city isn't going to set some precedent that is going to unravel the CBA.

Especially if there are underlying personal issues that WPG is presumably well aware of, as Mikos intimated.

 

[Inferno]

Heres the Rangers roster and how we got the player..

Pavel Buchnevich- Draft
Jesper Fast- Draft
Michael Grabner - Free Agent
Kevin Hayes - Free Agent
Josh Jooris - Free Agent
Chris Kreider - Draft
Oscar Lindberg - Trade
J.T. Miller - Draft
Rick Nash (A) - Trade
Brandon Pirri - Free Agent
Derek Stepan (A) - Draft
Jimmy Vesey - Free Agent
Mika Zibanejad - Trade
Mats Zuccarello - Free Agent
Adam Clendening - Free Agent
Dan Girardi (A) - Free Agent
Nick Holden - Trade
Kevin Klein - Trade
Ryan McDonagh (C) - Trade
Brady Skjei - Draft
Marc Staal (A) - Draft
Henrik Lundqvist - Draft
Antti Raanta - Trade

So the count is this:
Draft: 8
Trade: 7
Free Agent:8

So the key here isnt just to draft and develop...it's really asset management. of course we arent the blueprint by any stretch of the imagination..there are many ways of doing this..but i think, again, the key is asset management. draft and develop (Henrik, Step, Kreider, etc)..yes. but sign smart free agents (Vesey (Lottery), Hayes (Lottery), Pirri (Savvy), Zucc (Lottery)) and make smart trades Nash (I'll still stand by this trade till the end of time), Raanta (Very very very good asset management), Klein (Good trade...not great), McDonagh (!!!!!), Zib (so far a home run), etc.

There are some bad moves there, or some bad contracts we are paying for right now (Girardi, Staal)...but i think our asset management has been solid.

I'm not so sure I could say the same thing with Winnipeg.

Theyve made some smart moves, but some questionable ones as well.

What they do with Trouba will resonate in that franchise for a long time.
Asset Management. What are they going to do? Are they going to let him miss a season? Are they going to get him to sign just long enough to bolt the minute he becomes a free agent? Are they going to move him right now?

To say they only need a LHD is ridiculous.
They have the 23rd ranked offense currently
19th in goals allowed
25th in PP
20th in PK
9th in SOG
11th in SA

That tells me their goaltending could use a big upgrade...and they could use some finishers not name Laine.

of course this is just looking at stats...i dont watch them anymore now that they arent in Atlanta...but im sure a team with that poor of a record will have problems all over the ice..not just a Top LHD.
I mean, if they sure...Duncan Keith would help that team a lot...but youre not getting him for Trouba.

they have more problems than just a LHD.