Trade Deadline thread (new title to the former ‘is Jarmo done’ thread)

[LetsGOJackets!!]

This is what I'm thinking as well. Seth Jones is my favorite player on the team, but now might be the time to trade him.

That hurts me to the core. Seth Jones can own this town. It will be a sad day..

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Wtf is up with this place. Two weeks ago seth Jones was one of the most untouchable players in hockey. He struggles for one month and now there’s debate on whether or not to trade him.

I get he’s struggling. I get there is concern about him leaving. I get we need offense. But what the f*** is this thinking?

 

[NotWendell]

Wtf is up with this place. Two weeks ago seth Jones was one of the most untouchable players in hockey. He struggles for one month and now there’s debate on whether or not to trade him.

I get he’s struggling. I get there is concern about him leaving. I get we need offense. But what the f*** is this thinking?

Ok, let's trade Werenski.

 

[majormajor]

Wtf is up with this place. Two weeks ago seth Jones was one of the most untouchable players in hockey. He struggles for one month and now there’s debate on whether or not to trade him.

I get he’s struggling. I get there is concern about him leaving. I get we need offense. But what the f*** is this thinking?

This is going to happen anytime you have a team with 2 elite D-men, no #1C, and a shortage of elite forwards in general. Color me shocked that people are speculating about a trade.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

This is going to happen anytime you have a team with 2 elite D-men, no #1C, and a shortage of elite forwards in general. Color me shocked that people are speculating about a trade.

Elite defenseman are harder to come by than elite forwards. There’s only a handful of them and we have two. Yeah losing PLD f***ing sucks and is a massive setback for us, but Laine is a star too, and who knows what happens with Texier.

Im all for going all in this year. I said this weeks ago. But trading Werenski or Jones isn’t going all in, it’s conceding.

 

[Columbus Jack]

Elite defenseman are harder to come by than elite forwards. There’s only a handful of them and we have two. Yeah losing PLD f***ing sucks and is a massive setback for us, but Laine is a star too, and who knows what happens with Texier.

Im all for going all in this year. I said this weeks ago. But trading Werenski or Jones isn’t going all in, it’s conceding.

All depends on the return. If Jarmo trades one of those it's not going to be for a group of picks/prospects. He hasn't imo lost a big time trade yet, not sure why you're so concerned about that possibility. Werenksi and Jones are both great dmen, but you have to give to get. Not to mention our system covers a lot of holes see prime example Sergei Bobrovsky.

 

[majormajor]

Werenksi and Jones are both great dmen, but you have to give to get. Not to mention our system covers a lot of holes see prime example Sergei Bobrovsky.

If you meant Sergei Bobrovsky covered the holes in the system, then yes I'd agree with that.

 

[Columbus Jack]

If you meant Sergei Bobrovsky covered the holes in the system, then yes I'd agree with that.

Nah, look at him in Florida. They want him out already, we have Korpi and Elvis, 2 great goalies, we can afford to lose a Dman if it means we are solving a major hole up front.

 

[majormajor]

Nah, look at him in Florida. They want him out already, we have Korpi and Elvis, 2 great goalies, we can afford to lose a Dman if it means we are solving a major hole up front.

You're unwittingly spreading myths.

The Blue Jackets system 2016-2018 was very different, with goalies having to fend off 10+ odd man rushes per game. Bob was spectacular. Torts' reasoning for abandoning "safe is death" specifically cited the loss of Bobrovsky as the reason he had to dramatically tighten things up. Then last year they have the fewest rush chances against of any team. That's dramatically more goalie friendly.

There is this way we talk about Torts' system as if he has only had one system his whole career. On the contrary he has wildly swung between extremely goalie unfriendly and goalie friendly systems.

That Bob later went downhill (which started in 2018-19) doesn't change the fact that he was spectacular before that.

 

[Columbus Jack]

You're unwittingly spreading myths.

The Blue Jackets system 2016-2018 was very different, with goalies having to fend off 10+ odd man rushes per game. Bob was spectacular. Torts' reasoning for abandoning "safe is death" specifically cited the loss of Bobrovsky as the reason he had to dramatically tighten things up. Then last year they have the fewest rush chances against of any team. That's dramatically more goalie friendly.

There is this way we talk about Torts' system as if he has only had one system his whole career. On the contrary he has wildly swung between extremely goalie unfriendly and goalie friendly systems.

That Bob later went downhill (which started in 2018-19) doesn't change the fact that he was spectacular before that.

Are you actually trying to argue that Tort's system was THAT drastically different from what we have now? I still see plenty of odd man rushes and a lack of offense still. Also we had Panarin basically generating chances by himself for two of them. Bob's stats went drastically down once he went to Florida but we're going to say it's because Bob isn't good now? Really? That's awful convenient. I guess Florida's front office is really that dumb not knowing Bob isn't actually good at all. Korpi is basically replicating Bob's stats but that's because we're playing more defense now? Tort's system is defense first, whether he calls it safe is death or not. I've been watching the same style of hockey games since he's been here, it's defense first and score a couple. Small sample size this year but Korpi has put up even better stats in the first games he's played and that's with Zach and Jones playing terribly (offering even more of an argument that one of them could be dealt). Not denying Bob was spectacular and good goalie for us but Tort's knows how to instill defense first. How many times did he bench players for poor defense? He admits himself that's all he coaches, Tort's is always defense first, we have a surplus of defensemen and still struggle to score more than 3 goals a game. Not much more to add other than that.

To be exact with what I'm saying here, Tort's system allows us the luxury of trading a defenseman, don't really care to argue how good Bob was or wasn't. Korpi seems to have benefited just as much as Bob has.

 

[majormajor]

Are you actually trying to argue that Tort's system was THAT drastically different from what we have now? I still see plenty of odd man rushes and a lack of offense still.

Yes drastically different. We have barely any odd man rushes against, less than half of what we used to.

They went all the way up to 1st place in the league last year in having the fewest rush goals against and lowest expected goals against (xGA) per ThePoint.

ThePoint is proprietary, and I can't get their data on rush chances/goals for other years. But if you use naturalstattrick's xG you can see that the Jackets go from having the 6th worst xGA in 2016-2018 to having the 6th best xGA in 2019-20. That big of a change is something you only see when a coach gets canned and brings in a tighter system, or in this case when a coach does a "180".

This is an annual topic for the analytics crowd when they're looking at goalies: Who is better than their save percentage suggests and who is worse? The story in 2016-2018 was that Bobrovsky was somehow even better than his league best save percentage suggests. The odd man rush numbers were very high. It was comparable to Hellebuyck last year in Winnipeg.

But I guess it all looks the same to you so f*** all these numbers right?

Bob's stats went drastically down once he went to Florida but we're going to say it's because Bob isn't good now? Really? That's awful convenient. I guess Florida's front office is really that dumb not knowing Bob isn't actually good at all. Korpi is basically replicating Bob's stats but that's because we're playing more defense now?

Bob had a ~.900 save percentage through 2018-19 until March of that season. He had already lost the ability to carry the team. It was in early March when they had a team meeting and decided to tighten things up drastically. "Safe is death" was taken off the wall. Bob then puts up a .940 in March to end up at .913 on the year.

Korpisalo was sub .900 over the span of 2016-19, "convenient" would be if he just happens to wait until the system change to suddenly have good numbers.

 

[Columbus Jack]

Yes drastically different. We have barely any odd man rushes against, less than half of what we used to.

They went all the way up to 1st place in the league last year in having the fewest rush goals against and lowest expected goals against (xGA) per ThePoint.

ThePoint is proprietary, and I can't get their data on rush chances/goals for other years. But if you use naturalstattrick's xG you can see that the Jackets go from having the 6th worst xGA in 2016-2018 to having the 6th best xGA in 2019-20. That big of a change is something you only see when a coach gets canned and brings in a tighter system, or in this case when a coach does a "180".

This is an annual topic for the analytics crowd when they're looking at goalies: Who is better than their save percentage suggests and who is worse? The story in 2016-2018 was that Bobrovsky was somehow even better than his league best save percentage suggests. The odd man rush numbers were very high. It was comparable to Hellebuyck last year in Winnipeg.

But I guess it all looks the same to you so f*** all these numbers right?



Bob had a ~.900 save percentage through 2018-19 until March of that season. He had already lost the ability to carry the team. It was in early March when they had a team meeting and decided to tighten things up drastically. "Safe is death" was taken off the wall. Bob then puts up a .940 in March to end up at .913 on the year.

Korpisalo was sub .900 over the span of 2016-19, "convenient" would be if he just happens to wait until the system change to suddenly have good numbers.

The numbers that truly matter are what this team's record is, like I stated before, I don't really care about the how great Bob was/is argument. He went to Florida and was immediately shit. I don't think that just happened because he turned 31. The thing that doesn't add up is that if/when the team decided to change mentality again like you stated, and Bob then rebounded, why didn't that carry over to Florida? Or is it just because he's just awful now/Florida's system isn't good? Well if that was the case I'd guess you'd have to acknowledge Tort's has something to do with our goalie's success. As far as Korpi goes, couldn't it just be a young goalie improving? Well that's exactly what his numbers say as he has only gotten better as the years have gone on. GAA 2018 3.32, 2019 2.95, 2020 2.60, 2021 2.17. Save percentage has a similar improvement.

As far as what the actual topic of this discussion is, can you afford to trade Zach/Jones. I never thought defensemen pinching heavily was a great way to create offense, more something we had to do because the teams lacked top end scorers. Don't you think Columbus having to do that in order to make up for how poor their offense is, is an issue? If Seth Jones wants to stay long term you sign him long term and think about flipping Werenski for an elite center.

 

[Doug19]

If I'm trading a D it's Zach. We know that Seth is an elite 2 way guy. I'm not as convinced that Werenski can step it up and be the man in his own end without Jones back there. I would absolutely trade one for an top center though. I would rather have a top C, W, and D than a top W, D, and D.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

All depends on the return. If Jarmo trades one of those it's not going to be for a group of picks/prospects. He hasn't imo lost a big time trade yet, not sure why you're so concerned about that possibility. Werenksi and Jones are both great dmen, but you have to give to get. Not to mention our system covers a lot of holes see prime example Sergei Bobrovsky.

The Penguins never explored trading Malkin. Why should we entertain trading Werenski? Yeah, nether Jones nor Werenski are Crosby or Malkin, but they're a tier below and having both is massive and rare. You don't just trade that away.

 

[Old Guy]

I’m so glad that Jarmo is the GM and responsible for trades and drafting.

I’m so glad that our community of posters in this forum ARE NOT the GM and responsible for trades and drafting.

........ and I include myself as a part of the latter.

 

[KJ Dangler]

The Penguins never explored trading Malkin. Why should we entertain trading Werenski? Yeah, nether Jones nor Werenski are Crosby or Malkin, but they're a tier below and having both is massive and rare. You don't just trade that away.

Obviously so you can get a offensive player like a Malkin to pair with Laine and Bjorkstrand. I’d trade Werenski in a heartbeat for Barkov / Marner talent .

 

[MoeBartoli]

Yes it is. Think JC Tremblay.

My guy, JC! ....BTW, he did have score over 50 points his last two years with the Habs so he did show some offense.

 

[DarkandStormy]

3. Defense - strength - I would argue we are are near the top in our 3 d-line pairings. The best defense pairings in Jones and Werenski in the NHL.

Our defense, including the top pairing, has been bad this season.

 

[ViD]

Wtf is up with this place. Two weeks ago seth Jones was one of the most untouchable players in hockey. He struggles for one month and now there’s debate on whether or not to trade him.

I get he’s struggling. I get there is concern about him leaving. I get we need offense. But what the f*** is this thinking?

My main concern isn’t his recent performance but his UFA status in two years, despite him assuring he’s willing to re-negotiate, the possibility of losing him for nothing is too damn concerning

 

[ViD]

Our defense, including the top pairing, has been bad this season.

Gavrikov and Savard have been mostly excellent given their main role

 

[JohnnyJacket13]

Our defense, including the top pairing, has been bad this season.

Gavrikov and Savard have been mostly excellent given their main role

Really just the top-pair has been bad. MDZ-Kukan have been excellent.

 

[domi28]

Elite defenseman are harder to come by than elite forwards. There’s only a handful of them and we have two. Yeah losing PLD f***ing sucks and is a massive setback for us, but Laine is a star too, and who knows what happens with Texier.

Im all for going all in this year. I said this weeks ago. But trading Werenski or Jones isn’t going all in, it’s conceding.

Elite dmen may or may not be harder to come by but the past has shown teams can win a Stanley Cup without them. It's hard to find a team that has won without elite forwards, and more importantly elite 1Cs. Ryan O'Reilly is probably the worst 1C to win a cup in the last 10-15 years and he's significantly better than anyone currently on the roster here.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Elite defenseman are harder to come by than elite forwards. There’s only a handful of them and we have two. Yeah losing PLD f***ing sucks and is a massive setback for us, but Laine is a star too, and who knows what happens with Texier.

Im all for going all in this year. I said this weeks ago. But trading Werenski or Jones isn’t going all in, it’s conceding.

Couple points:
1. I would probably argue Elite Cs are more elusive than elite Dmen. Again that is just my opinion.
2. How did Werenski get labeled elite? He's good (and very young) but I doubt many outside of Central Ohio would throw him in any elite category. I like him and I think he could be elite but I don't think anyone woudl label him as elite unless the elite category is very broad.

 

[majormajor]

Couple points:
1. I would probably argue Elite Cs are more elusive than elite Dmen. Again that is just my opinion.
2. How did Werenski get labeled elite? He's good (and very young) but I doubt many outside of Central Ohio would throw him in any elite category. I like him and I think he could be elite but I don't think anyone woudl label him as elite unless the elite category is very broad.

In my opinion Werenski was somewhere between the 7th to 12th best D in the league last year. That to me is elite company. He doesn't have elite results so far this year but I'm still pretty confident in him.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

He’s been top 10 in some media lists of d-men league wide.