GDT: Trade Deadline Day Discussion III

[Clark4Ever]

The way I look at it is this...If Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, and Lupul were UFAs this summer, would there be multiple teams offering salary and term comparable to their existing contracts with the Leafs?

In my opinion, the answer is yes. Therefore, there is no justifiable reason that management should give these guys away just to clear cap space. We absolutely should obtain a significant collection of assets for these players if they are to be moved.

 

[snizzbone*]

I know there are Leaf fans who would have liked the shelves wiped clean on Monday, but it's important for the Leafs to make the best deal possible, not just make the deals as quickly as possible. Believe me, there's more coming in June.

-Lebrun's closing statements from his latest article. I'm so excited.

 

[SeenSchenn2]

bahahahahahah


THAT's your evidence???


oh my, oh my, some folks just don't understand the media game at all.

Yeah, that should tell you that the "info" was pure bs.
Santorelli, Winnik, Komarov and Rielly are the kind of guys I would say are fit.

Kessel has powerful skating and this year the fitness test was not a fitness test but a skating efficiency test so no surprise Kessel got good results, if the info is even true will say. That Cox tweet came out 1-2 days after an article had been published where Kessel had been called overweight and out of shape by the coaches. If you understand how franchises deal with protecting their brand and their players you would also understand that leaking info contradicting a negative article about a player is exactly what they do.

And it is laughable that guys rely on a tweet that begins with "The word is..." as some kind of official info. Kessel looks winded after a shift, he looks out of shape and he have again had a season where he completely falls of the cliff towards the end of the season. All this indicates he is not fit. But you go ahead and fool your self that he is one of the fittest Leafs

Because the both of you are incredibly rattled, I'll leave it at this.

None of us know the fitness testing they go through, nor do we know fitness to the level their trainers.

Faltorvo's posts are always 'interesting' in itself.

 

[diceman934]

Anyone who thinks Kessel is in good shape is lying to themselves.

Now that is one part that Phil can do that will help himself as he would be more attractive to potential teams if he was actually working out this summer. As well as to expand his list of teams that he would accept a trade to.

Dion should be asked to expand his list of teams that he would accept a trade to.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I think you're fair in your projections - I have no doubt that Phaneuf (and Kessel's) high salary will be a concern with any team but there will nonetheless be interest. That's where salary retention can still come into play as well as other cap dumps to help mitigate that.

I still believe the Leafs will have to retain some salary but there is more cap flexibility in the off-season than mid-season at the draft. That should help open the market a bit more for Phaneuf (and Kessel). At the same time the Leafs can still revisit the idea of getting a good prospect. I do believe Phaneuf and Kessel need to be moved around the draft/UFA period though - while I'm not in a rush to rebuild, in order to really push this thing forward I don't think either player should be on the roster next season. Bozak and Lupul too, but to a lesser extent.

It may take a couple of seasons to dispose of the core but they need to start sooner than later and cut "the head" off first

I think there are great fits out there with other teams that we will not have to take back salary. There will be teams that fail this playoffs and GM's will be looking for deals, hockey deals that salaries will be exchanged.

Maybe SJ or Detroit. Leafs do not have to be desperate, we do not have to give away players. Not taking lowball offers at the deadline was the prudent thing to do. There will be some desperate GM's making deals to save their jobs when they disappoint in the playoffs. I can almost guarantee this.

 

[Cor]

-Lebrun's closing statements from his latest article. I'm so excited.

 

[Vexed]

Anyone who thinks Kessel is in good shape is lying to themselves.

Now that is one part that Phil can do that will help himself as he would be more attractive to potential teams if he was actually working out this summer. As well as to expand his list of teams that he would accept a trade to.

Dion should be asked to expand his list of teams that he would accept a trade to.

That's all people can say on the issue; nothing of substance.

I think his upper body strength is a bigger issue based on what we see on the ice but this is all way OT now I think.

I just heard on the The FAN Dion seems a little miffed that he is still here. Hopefully that helps him expand that list

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Okay fine if we are going to go of anecdotal evidence only

Kessel is one of the most durable forwards in the game. He hasn't missed a game since 09

Kessel has averaged just under 20min a game since coming to Toronto

Kessel is one of the top 5 consistent point getters in the league

If he is out of shape then he can continue to be out of shape for all I care but it only takes about 2 seconds of rational thinking to understand that in this league you cannot possibly stay productive and healthy while being out of shape.

I think the guy could use an attitude adjustment but this other crap is just ignorant tbh

His durability comes from him taking shifts and entire games off. Never go into the corners, never drive the net but stay safely in the perimeter. If there is a puck to be won he bails out, if there is a puck to hold on to he gives it away. You dont get hurt playing like that unless you are unlucky.

And if you are watching the games and also check out some stats you would see that Kessel is not productive right now and he was not productive towards the end of last season either. Not for a guy like him anyway. So with some rational thinking you got to wonder how a player with so many elite offensive tools as he have can produce so little towards the end of the season?

And him being a top 5 consistent point producer is because he never gets injured, for the reasons stated above. If you look at PPG he drops out of the top 10.

And the attitude adjustment is easier said then done. Many teammates and coaches have tried to make him change his work ethic but no one have succeeded and I doubt any one will.
The day he hangs up his skates he will make old Elvis look slim.

 

[thewave]

Okay fine if we are going to go of anecdotal evidence only

Kessel is one of the most durable forwards in the game. He hasn't missed a game since 09

Kessel has averaged just under 20min a game since coming to Toronto

Kessel is one of the top 5 consistent point getters in the league

If he is out of shape then he can continue to be out of shape for all I care but it only takes about 2 seconds of rational thinking to understand that in this league you cannot possibly stay productive and healthy while being out of shape.

I think the guy could use an attitude adjustment but this other crap is just ignorant tbh

Kessel plays with the intensity of a grazing cow. The only time he moves is if the puck is on his stick and he can go in for a rush. That's the equivalent of the barn catching fire and bolting from the scene for a cow.

 

[RLF]

The way I look at it is this...If Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, and Lupul were UFAs this summer, would there be multiple teams offering salary and term comparable to their existing contracts with the Leafs?

In my opinion, the answer is yes. Therefore, there is no justifiable reason that management should give these guys away just to clear cap space. We absolutely should obtain a significant collection of assets for these players if they are to be moved.

UFA signings cost nothing but money, so you add an asset to what you already have if you can manage the signing under the cap. Very easy to figure out for a management team.

A trade for a big contract is quite different. You are essentially creating new holes with the players you trade to acquire the big contract player that will need to be filled with other players AND adding a big new contract. In a trade we will have to take back some contract, if we don't, we won't get as good a return. It doesn't matter if teams would pay them as a UFA what we did, it matters if they can afford to lose assets, have other players to fill the holes potentially created AND fit him under the cap.

 

[Daisy Jane]

The way I look at it is this...If Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, and Lupul were UFAs this summer, would there be multiple teams offering salary and term comparable to their existing contracts with the Leafs?

In my opinion, the answer is yes. Therefore, there is no justifiable reason that management should give these guys away just to clear cap space. We absolutely should obtain a significant collection of assets for these players if they are to be moved.

Bingo.

now. the argument is/always will be "you don't have to give up assets in the summertime. which is not true. Cap-spaceis an asset. and nowadays, you see teams sign players, only to have to waiver/trade someone else anyway. I feel that everything is interconnected.

the Leafs shouldn't have to retain, unless they are asking for a premium, nor should they bend over and accept anything simply because they have to be moved

 

[080]

-Lebrun's closing statements from his latest article. I'm so excited.

I just got a *****.

Finally.

 

[080]

Okay fine if we are going to go of anecdotal evidence only

Kessel is one of the most durable forwards in the game. He hasn't missed a game since 091

Kessel has averaged just under 20min a game since coming to Toronto 2

Kessel is one of the top 5 consistent point getters in the league 3

If he is out of shape then he can continue to be out of shape for all I care but it only takes about 2 seconds of rational thinking to understand that in this league you cannot possibly stay productive and healthy while being out of shape.

I think the guy could use an attitude adjustment but this other crap is just ignorant tbh

1. Kessel doesn't take or initiate contract -- not hard to play a lot when you can't be hurt by physicality;

2. Any player can play 20 minutes; particularly when you hardly backcheck and never have to win any battles;

3. Not hard when you don't play defense and cheat nonstop to get them.

 

[Community]

Would you guys deal Phaneuf at the draft for Pittsburgh 1st, EDM 2nd, and one of Marincin/Klefbom

 

[TOG26]

Looks like TSN not only lost their rights to NHL hockey. Have also pissed off a few people with what little coverage they have left...

Sad cause sportsnet is also horrible until they get the right guys they have on staff on tv as their full time guys.

 

[showtime8]

Looks like TSN not only lost their rights to NHL hockey. Have also pissed off a few people with what little coverage they have left...

Sad cause sportsnet is also horrible until they get the right guys they have on staff on tv as their full time guys.

I find it kind of disrespectful as well.

From the outside looking in, that's definitely the way it looks from the Sabres, but you never ask a player that straight up or even imply it on air. Every player has put in hard work since they were 14 (and younger) to leave their families to play junior.

I don't know why people are crapping on Sportsnet. I find it refreshing that they have players that have played the game at a high level. Maybe they aren't the best on camera, but to have the contacts that they have, companied with the fact that they played, is a great combo.

 

[Super Mega]

Looks like TSN not only lost their rights to NHL hockey. Have also pissed off a few people with what little coverage they have left...

Sad cause sportsnet is also horrible until they get the right guys they have on staff on tv as their full time guys.

the rush to call players is idiotic to begin with

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I like it, hopefully Chad stands on his head for the rest of the season to prove everyone wrong.
But it was a strange move indeed. Buffalo holds Islanders 1st this year but they are willing to trade a goalie with .918 save% to them for a goalie with a .890 save%. And I see nothing wrong in the media pointing it out.

 

[King Mapes]

Looks like TSN not only lost their rights to NHL hockey. Have also pissed off a few people with what little coverage they have left...

Sad cause sportsnet is also horrible until they get the right guys they have on staff on tv as their full time guys.

It's funny because the whole time I wasthinking the same thing.

 

[hfdshdh]

I like it, hopefully Chad stands on his head for the rest of the season to prove everyone wrong.
But it was a strange move indeed. Buffalo holds Islanders 1st this year but they are willing to trade a goalie with .918 save% to them for a goalie with a .890 save%. And I see nothing wrong in the media pointing it out.

Neuvirth is a pending UFA. Why keep him for another 20 games and lose him for nothing when the season is a write-off anyway?

 

[Joey Hoser]

Anyone who thinks Kessel is in good shape is lying to themselves.

Now that is one part that Phil can do that will help himself as he would be more attractive to potential teams if he was actually working out this summer. As well as to expand his list of teams that he would accept a trade to.

Dion should be asked to expand his list of teams that he would accept a trade to.

I assume you mean relatively good shape? He is a world class athlete and I'm quite sure he'd crush us all in any sort of physical competition.

It's a matter of whether or not he could be more with a higher effort level, and if he's just relying on what he genes do for him.

 

[seanlinden]

The way I look at it is this...If Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, and Lupul were UFAs this summer, would there be multiple teams offering salary and term comparable to their existing contracts with the Leafs?

In my opinion, the answer is yes. Therefore, there is no justifiable reason that management should give these guys away just to clear cap space. We absolutely should obtain a significant collection of assets for these players if they are to be moved.

Personally, I'd disagree with you on 1/4.

Phaneuf, Kessel, would easily get the contracts they currently have, if not more. My guess would be Phaneuf at $7.25m X 7, Kessel at $9m X 7. I think Bozak would be a $4.75m X 4 player.

It's for that reason, I don't think any of these 3 moving is a certainty, if Phaneuf or Bozak go, the Leafs are just going to be looking to replace them with somebody that's ideally better, and struggle to do so. You could make the case that the Leafs might be better without Kessel, if they can get a couple of guys who can produce at say, a JvR-levels, but play a stronger 2 way game, but he's also a "rarer" type of player should the Leafs decide that they really needed a premier goalscorer.

Lupul on the other hand, to me stands out. If he was a UFA today, I don't think anyone would pony up $5.25m X 3 this summer. Too much of a cap crunch and too big of an injury history.

 

[Damisoph]

I assume you mean relatively good shape? He is a world class athlete and I'm quite sure he'd crush us all in any sort of physical competition.

It's a matter of whether or not he could be more with a higher effort level, and if he's just relying on what he genes do for him.

Hard to compare to a world class athlete, but as you get older the effort you have to put in just to maintain increases. Phil may be able to get away with no workout regimen in the summer in his 20s, but as he gets older he's going to have to hit the gym hard

 

[gabeliscious]

-Lebrun's closing statements from his latest article. I'm so excited.

its pretty logical that come the summer teams will have greater cap flexibility and know what direction their teams are going.

Personally, I'd disagree with you on 1/4.

Phaneuf, Kessel, would easily get the contracts they currently have, if not more. My guess would be Phaneuf at $7.25m X 7, Kessel at $9m X 7. I think Bozak would be a $4.75m X 4 player.

It's for that reason, I don't think any of these 3 moving is a certainty, if Phaneuf or Bozak go, the Leafs are just going to be looking to replace them with somebody that's ideally better, and struggle to do so. You could make the case that the Leafs might be better without Kessel, if they can get a couple of guys who can produce at say, a JvR-levels, but play a stronger 2 way game, but he's also a "rarer" type of player should the Leafs decide that they really needed a premier goalscorer.

Lupul on the other hand, to me stands out. If he was a UFA today, I don't think anyone would pony up $5.25m X 3 this summer. Too much of a cap crunch and too big of an injury history.

i agree with your valuations of the contracts but i think these 4 will move on as soon as possible. the leafs obviously wont replace them right away with players as good but the goal is the return will blossom into better players.

i have no idea what a potential return for kessel or phaneuf will bring in reality but for arguments sake i think long term the leafs would be better if they could make a trade like,

kessel to florida for huberdeau (gudbranson, i know you prefer him), petrovic/trocheck, 1st

phaneuf to ducks for theodore, 1st, stoner (unlikely with the wiz)

bozak somewhere for late 1st

lupul for a 2nd, roster player, and conditional 2nd based on games played.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Phaenuff rejected a deal out West.

Would you guys deal Phaneuf at the draft for Pittsburgh 1st, EDM 2nd, and one of Marincin/Klefbom

He will only accept US teams in his 12 ,making it harder to trade him. We need to wait for him to be traded and it wont be to a Canadian team.