Trade Bait and a New Core.

[ChaoticOrange]

Thanks for the kind words and reading it, guys. It's appreciated.

Sometimes it's really difficult to write things that aren't the equivalent of shouting at clouds every year there's a new and exciting way for this team to piss you off.

 

[frag2]

Chiarelli in Edmonton is not Chiarelli in Boston. They get Chara for free and that pretty much anchors their entire D for years. Edmonton doesn't have that.

Also, trades are difficult to come by and expecting bit parts for serviceable ones is gonna be especially difficult. Moreso with the Oilers because entire league knows the Oilers need defensemen and, supposedly, are filled with offensive talent up front.

With regards to the usual trade bait of Eberle and Nuge, my own assessment is

Eberle - first line forward who doesn't play like a first line forward every night; always suspect defensively
Nuge - a high end 2C who plays 1C because of circumstances; undersized for the WC

Both playing at their tops, this team is just okay [think about that]. When they disappear, especially if the expected offense of Hall-Drai and/or McDavid isn't there, team is ****ed.

This team can't have passengers anymore. Either show up every night or play elsewhere IMO

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Chiarelli in Edmonton is not Chiarelli in Boston. They get Chara for free and that pretty much anchors their entire D for years. Edmonton doesn't have that.

Also, trades are difficult to come by and expecting bit parts for serviceable ones is gonna be especially difficult. Moreso with the Oilers because entire league knows the Oilers need defensemen and, supposedly, are filled with offensive talent up front.

With regards to the usual trade bait of Eberle and Nuge, my own assessment is

Eberle - first line forward who doesn't play like a first line forward every night; always suspect defensively
Nuge - a high end 2C who plays 1C because of circumstances; undersized for the WC

Both playing at their tops, this team is just okay [think about that]. When they disappear, especially if the expected offense of Hall-Drai and/or McDavid isn't there, team is ****ed.

This team can't have passengers anymore. Either show up every night or play elsewhere IMO

There are 20 teams in the league that need or want defencemen. Almost nobody has an asset like RNH to give up for one.

 

[harpoon]

A guy who is consistently in the top 50 in the NHL in points is mediocre. Sure.

Nice read Chaotic

 

[frag2]

There are 20 teams in the league that need or want defencemen. Almost nobody has an asset like RNH to give up for one.

No matter what, we aren't really gonna win. Unless a diamond in the rough d-man like Klingberg shows up, I don't think we are gonna win any D-man trade even if we offered our "old core"

 

[Up the Irons]

Nice read Chaotic.

I guess we're supposed to just pump the tires for players on the worst team in the league, huh.


Roster of players are used to make a lineup = worst team in the league. hmmmm.


I guess we're supposed to surmise that those players in the most impactful positions have ZERO impact on the team's record. riiiiiight.


The number 1C on the PP and sniper on the PP --> terrible PP. hmmmmm.

oh, that's right, its everybody else's fault they have a terrible PP. How could the puck distributing C and the one-shot F have anything to do with their terrible play?

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I guess we're supposed to just pump the tires for players on the worst team in the league, huh.


Roster of players are used to make a lineup = worst team in the league. hmmmm.


I guess we're supposed to surmise that those players in the most impactful positions have ZERO impact on the team's record. riiiiiight.


The number 1C on the PP and sniper on the PP --> terrible PP. hmmmmm.

oh, that's right, its everybody else's fault they have a terrible PP. How could the puck distributing C and the one-shot F have anything to do with their terrible play?

From 2011-2015, RNH is 29th amongst forwards in powerplay points.
14th in points/60 on the PP.
10th among fulltime centres.
6th in Assists/60 on the PP
First in players his age in PP points/60.

Sorry, but you're dead wrong here. RNH is part of a successful powerplay going forward.

 

[Up the Irons]

good read, Orange. Especially how you demonstrate that quality D do become available. the 10 D in the world typically do not. but 11 to 30 do.

 

[Young Lions*]

I guess we're supposed to just pump the tires for players on the worst team in the league, huh

No, but no lapsing into the kind of hyperbole that is your stock-in-trade ("mediocre," average") would be a step up.

Roster of players are used to make a lineup = worst team in the league. hmmmm.

Yes, by all means look at the roster. In fact look at the roster for the entirety of the last 10 years and show me when this team has iced a balanced roster with more than two legitimate top four defensemen and a bona fide #1C, then we can talk turkey.

I guess we're supposed to surmise that those players in the most impactful positions have ZERO impact on the team's record. riiiiiight.

You think a first line right wing is more impactful than, say a 1D or legit starting goalie? Let's have a little counterfactual here and imagine Patrick Kane in Eberle's place with everything else being the same: how many more wins does that get you? How many playoff apperances?

The number 1C on the PP and sniper on the PP --> terrible PP. hmmmmm.

You realize that the Oilers prior to this season had a good-to-average power play for the entire time both Eberle and RNH have been on the team, right?

11-12: 2nd
12-13 9th
13-14: 20th*
14-15: 18th*

*The Eakinsing.

oh, that's right, its everybody else's fault they have a terrible PP. How could the puck distributing C and the one-shot F have anything to do with their terrible play?

I don't think anyone would disagree that both players in question are having rough years by their standards. But it's the epitome of short-sightedness to ignore the standards themselves and suggest these players have never been any good.

Of course, I don't know why you expect them to fetch any kind of return to help the team, what with them being so mediocre and replaceable by any random schmoe.

 

[Up the Irons]

Well, solid points.

To me, a good PP wins u games. It is successful in the 3rd period, down a goal.

See, where some cite RNH's stats, I cite losses.

Have a good one!! It's all good.

 

[BlowbyBlow]

No, but no lapsing into the kind of hyperbole that is your stock-in-trade ("mediocre," average") would be a step up.



Yes, by all means look at the roster. In fact look at the roster for the entirety of the last 10 years and show me when this team has iced a balanced roster with more than two legitimate top four defensemen and a bona fide #1C, then we can talk turkey.



You think a first line right wing is more impactful than, say a 1D or legit starting goalie? Let's have a little counterfactual here and imagine Patrick Kane in Eberle's place with everything else being the same: how many more wins does that get you? How many playoff apperances?



You realize that the Oilers prior to this season had a good-to-average power play for the entire time both Eberle and RNH have been on the team, right?

11-12: 2nd
12-13 9th
13-14: 20th*
14-15: 18th*

*The Eakinsing.



I don't think anyone would disagree that both players in question are having rough years by their standards. But it's the epitome of short-sightedness to ignore the standards themselves and suggest these players have never been any good.

Of course, I don't know why you expect them to fetch any kind of return to help the team, what with them being so mediocre and replaceable by any random schmoe.

Most on here with have to agree to disagree. I think with Mcdavid he makes RNH expendable and I think most are happy with that if it gets you a #2-3 dman.

What bothers particular fans like me with RNH/Eberle (having seen these guys in public) is there conditioning and there level of passion. There socialites, there celebrities there not Doug Weight or Bill Guerin guys in public if you criticized a loss they'd give you that glare they would want to beat you with a lead pipe in a back alley. (I got the glare and look back in the day when I made a remark).

It's that level and care that really matters, it's conditioning, it's consistently getting better each year.

They are guys who should be changing the fate of the Oilers.

I feel really bad for harping on Hall because this year showing him playing with a guy like Draisaitl they form a dynamic duo. Mcdavid has impact. I noticed Eberle when he came back but in spurts. RNH were games I didn't even know he was playing.

In many ways the NHL is back to what it was years ago with more clutch and grab. I can't see RNH/Eberle being effective at all come playoff time.. Comparing Kane with Eberle is asinine Patty Kane is a top 3 winger in the NHL, Eberle is a top 25. Kane can single handely change a game in the SCF Eberle can't do that in a regular season game.

Now this isn't to compare the two it's more about saying what role would Eberle be when this team ever gets to be a playoff team. Comparing a perennial playoff player vs a guy who gets points on a cellar dweller team should be prorated to being less with any player in the league.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

http://alongtheboards.com/2016/01/oiler-trade-bait-and-a-new-core/

Haven't put theoretical pen to metaphorical paper in awhile, but all the trade talk got me thinking.

I'm not sure if I agree with how you went about arguing for Hall...


"the emotional leader"...?

This team is an emotional wasteland. IF that is Halls strength then it is doing diddly jack squat for getting us wins.

I think Halls major selling point is that he has looked like the teams best player over a good stretch of games this year and is arguably the singular veteran player whose game has improved and stayed fairly consistent under McLellan and his system.

 

[Young Lions*]

Most on here with have to agree to disagree. I think with Mcdavid he makes RNH expendable and I think most are happy with that if it gets you a #2-3 dman.

I don't think a mediocre or average player gets you that kind of return. With these guys you're describing, we'd apparently be lucky to get a fifth round pick.

What bothers particular fans like me with RNH/Eberle (having seen these guys in public) is there conditioning and there level of passion. There socialites, there celebrities there not Doug Weight or Bill Guerin guys in public if you criticized a loss they'd give you that glare they would want to beat you with a lead pipe in a back alley. (I got the glare and look back in the day when I made a remark).

It's that level and care that really matters, it's conditioning, it's consistently getting better each year.

They are guys who should be changing the fate of the Oilers.

This is twaddle and not just because you're talking about things you know nothing about. Here's why:

I feel really bad for harping on Hall because this year showing him playing with a guy like Draisaitl they form a dynamic duo. Mcdavid has impact. I noticed Eberle when he came back but in spurts. RNH were games I didn't even know he was playing.

Throughout his tenure, Hall has gotten stick on this board for many of the same reasons above: he was immature, he partied too much, he didn't care blah blah blah

This year, he's back in form as one of the best left wingers in the whole game and people are acting like he's changed. The idea that the narrative was b.s. all along never crosses their minds. Now I see the same thing with Eberle and RNH, two players who have been very productive for the Oilers even as the team showed no sign of attempting to make any improvements. It's ridiculous.

In many ways the NHL is back to what it was years ago with more clutch and grab. I can't see RNH/Eberle being effective at all come playoff time.. Comparing Kane with Eberle is asinine Patty Kane is a top 3 winger in the NHL, Eberle is a top 25. Kane can single handely change a game in the SCF Eberle can't do that in a regular season game.

Now this isn't to compare the two it's more about saying what role would Eberle be when this team ever gets to be a playoff team. Comparing a perennial playoff player vs a guy who gets points on a cellar dweller team should be prorated to being less with any player in the league.

Um. I was not comparing Eberle and Kane and frankly it's astonishing that you came away with that idea.

I'm pointing out that Kane would not be the player he is on a team that doesn't have the depth and talent of the Blackhawks. This should be so obvious as to be axiomatic. I doubt Kane even sniffs the playoffs on the Oilers.

 

[thadd]

Great article. It's funny to see people rushing to ship out RNH and Ebs for mediocre defensemen. I even saw someone mention Eberle for Phaneuf. We got Sekera for zero assets. It'll take time, but we can definitely rebuild the defense without destroying our forward depth.

Yes but you also need to accept that the quality of d-men we need coming in at this point aren't the kind of that hit free agency all that often. They're so good that their teams will often overpay them to stay.

In the off-season I'd say the Buff and Campbell are these kinds of d-men. Campbell is really old so it's not like anyone is going to offer him any more than 3 seasons. Buff on the other hand is a big nasty guy at the perfect age for a 6+ year contract. (I'd be really happy to sign him to a 5 year contract) Anyone with money is going to chase him.

If we can't sign one of these guys then we've gotta make a trade and since there are only 2 of these guys and 30 teams in the NHL I feel that a trade is more likely to fix our problems.

Another big factor is the salary cap. We won't be able to afford Eberle, Drai, Hopkins, Hall and McDavid forever.

If Drai played at this pace for 82 games he'd be putting up 75 points. Insane. If he puts up 70 points next year it's going to be bloody expensive to resign him.

 

[BlowbyBlow]

Yes but you also need to accept that the quality of d-men we need coming in at this point aren't the kind of that hit free agency all that often. They're so good that their teams will often overpay them to stay.

In the off-season I'd say the Buff and Campbell are these kinds of d-men. Campbell is really old so it's not like anyone is going to offer him any more than 3 seasons. Buff on the other hand is a big nasty guy at the perfect age for a 6+ year contract. (I'd be really happy to sign him to a 5 year contract) Anyone with money is going to chase him.

If we can't sign one of these guys then we've gotta make a trade and since there are only 2 of these guys and 30 teams in the NHL I feel that a trade is more likely to fix our problems.

Another big factor is the salary cap. We won't be able to afford Eberle, Drai, Hopkins, Hall and McDavid forever.

If Drai played at this pace for 82 games he'd be putting up 75 points. Insane. If he puts up 70 points next year it's going to be bloody expensive to resign him.

Draisaitl has to get a deal like Klefbom right now - long term - overpay now, underpay later.

Mcdavid will get his money regardless.

Only issue is having a balanced team and trading for lesser money if this team doesn't compete for another year (this year)

Shed salary now and work on free agency.

 

[thadd]

Most on here with have to agree to disagree. I think with Mcdavid he makes RNH expendable and I think most are happy with that if it gets you a #2-3 dman.

May sound like I'm splitting hairs, but I'll lose my **** if we trade Hopkins for a #3. I want a guy who's playing tons of top pairing minutes.

If we traded Eberle for a high end 2nd pairing guy I'd be very happy, though.

 

[thadd]

Draisaitl has to get a deal like Klefbom right now - long term - overpay now, underpay later.

Mcdavid will get his money regardless.

Only issue is having a balanced team and trading for lesser money if this team doesn't compete for another year (this year)

Shed salary now and work on free agency.

Would be awesome if Draisaitl signed a contract like that... but I can't expect it to happen. Can we be so lucky?

 

[BlowbyBlow]

Would be awesome if Draisaitl signed a contract like that... but I can't expect it to happen. Can we be so lucky?

It might be unrealistic but would a 8 year 5-5-6m/year work. I don't know, but I think in 2-3 years you might be looking at 7-8/year. It's risk/reward right now 5.5-6m/year may look like overpay but in 5-6 years at a long term deal it may look like a massive steal.

Every time i look at Marian Hossa's deal i can't believe what a steal he is at 5.75/year

May sound like I'm splitting hairs, but I'll lose my **** if we trade Hopkins for a #3. I want a guy who's playing tons of top pairing minutes.

If we traded Eberle for a high end 2nd pairing guy I'd be very happy, though.

I think every trade will be a disappointment. Heck there is people who think Schultz might tear it up on another team. I think you have hope you've done your homework more on a comparable young player (Jones esque) rather than get a veteran d-man who is on the downside and your watching RNH become a better player on another team.

 

[Elric]

Most on here with have to agree to disagree. I think with Mcdavid he makes RNH expendable and I think most are happy with that if it gets you a #2-3 dman.

What bothers particular fans like me with RNH/Eberle (having seen these guys in public) is there conditioning and there level of passion. There socialites, there celebrities there not Doug Weight or Bill Guerin guys in public if you criticized a loss they'd give you that glare they would want to beat you with a lead pipe in a back alley. (I got the glare and look back in the day when I made a remark).

It's that level and care that really matters, it's conditioning, it's consistently getting better each year.

They are guys who should be changing the fate of the Oilers.

I feel really bad for harping on Hall because this year showing him playing with a guy like Draisaitl they form a dynamic duo. Mcdavid has impact. I noticed Eberle when he came back but in spurts. RNH were games I didn't even know he was playing.

In many ways the NHL is back to what it was years ago with more clutch and grab. I can't see RNH/Eberle being effective at all come playoff time.. Comparing Kane with Eberle is asinine Patty Kane is a top 3 winger in the NHL, Eberle is a top 25. Kane can single handely change a game in the SCF Eberle can't do that in a regular season game.

Now this isn't to compare the two it's more about saying what role would Eberle be when this team ever gets to be a playoff team. Comparing a perennial playoff player vs a guy who gets points on a cellar dweller team should be prorated to being less with any player in the league.

Obviously Kane is the best RW in the league and will be for a while. Vastly better player although both are scorers and not so physical/defensive players. There's a rather substantial contract difference though (like nearly double and running until he's an old guy). Since 2011 Kane is 1st in points and Ebs is 6th. Kane is 3rd in goals and Ebs is 7th. There not equal but I certainly don't want Chia trading for Kane.\

 

[BlowbyBlow]

Obviously Kane is the best RW in the league and will be for a while. Vastly better player although both are scorers and not so physical/defensive players. There's a rather substantial contract difference though (like nearly double and running until he's an old guy). Since 2011 Kane is 1st in points and Ebs is 6th. Kane is 3rd in goals and Ebs is 7th. There not equal but I certainly don't want Chia trading for Kane.\

The quality Kane has is elusiveness (not avoiding) it's the same with Datsyuk.

Kane would absolutely make the Oilers a better team right now. The experience the ability to change the tempo of a game.

From a forward perspective in the last years I've seen it done twice with Kane - Game 4-5 against Boston he changed that series around, last year it was earlier. You'd be crazy not to want a guy like that.

I used to be a diehard Kane hater like everything came to mind he's going to be chopped down like a tree in the playoffs, but the one thing players hate is one guys who chirp and agitate you all the time (Torres, Marchand type) and guys who will stick check, poke check, steal the puck.

There's just such a quality about guys like him that if you face that in a 7 game series they break you down. They force you as a forward to overthink and make even more complicated plays. No one at all right now is saying wow it's hard to play against Eberle/RNH

I don't know what happened with RNH he was doing all the poke checking, stealing the puck stuff and that was his best quality even if he wasn't scoring.

 

[guymez]

we'll have to agree to disagree.

cheers

Disagree on what exactly? Young Lions posted something thats a reality of the League...is that what you are disagreeing with?

Sheesh...its one thing not to like a player like Eberle but its another thing altogether to dismiss anything and everything that illustrates that the player has real value.

 

[harpoon]

Obviously Kane is the best RW in the league and will be for a while. Vastly better player although both are scorers and not so physical/defensive players. There's a rather substantial contract difference though (like nearly double and running until he's an old guy). Since 2011 Kane is 1st in points and Ebs is 6th. Kane is 3rd in goals and Ebs is 7th. There not equal but I certainly don't want Chia trading for Kane.\

Wow. So much common sense in one post. Bravo.
Unfortunately the people that need to be reading it will just gloss right over, and give the board another story about how they got glared at by our mediocre talent
Sixth ffs. How can anyone who knows how many teams there are in the league call that mediocre?

 

[McAsuno]

I'm not sure if I agree with how you went about arguing for Hall...


"the emotional leader"...?

This team is an emotional wasteland. IF that is Halls strength then it is doing diddly jack squat for getting us wins.

I think Halls major selling point is that he has looked like the teams best player over a good stretch of games this year and is arguably the singular veteran player whose game has improved and stayed fairly consistent under McLellan and his system.

Idk man, the fact that Hall still shows the emotions and passion to try to win games consecutively at this stage of his career where he's been in nothing but losing seasons speaks volume of him. Blame the garbage D every year that has done "diddly jack squat" to help us get wins as much as Hall has tried.

Great read nonetheless, Chaotic.

 

[BlowbyBlow]

Wow. So much common sense in one post. Bravo.
Unfortunately the people that need to be reading it will just gloss right over, and give the board another story about how they got glared at by our mediocre talent
Sixth ffs. How can anyone who knows how many teams there are in the league call that mediocre?

Most people who care about wins/losses don't give a crap about personal stats.

We care if the team is down 1 nothing, 2 nothing who is going to turn it around.

No one in there right mind would ever say Ryan Smyth was a great offensive player or Kelly Buchberger, but if you needed energy or a guy to create some momentum by a big hit, or rallying the guys on the bench they could do it.

When you have guys like Kassian who care more or when Hendricks came caring more than guys who have been 5-6 years you have problem.

Teams that you would want to trade with to get defensive help would have G.M.s that have a good idea what type of personalities/characters the Oilers have and how they would be in there dressing room.

Also those same G.M.s if there on a playoff run or want to improve there team there looking if it's really worth it or it's a lateral move. They want to see who checks in and who checks out. How is that hard to understand.

I am talking about qualitative aspects: character, drive, determination, effort.
People who bring up stats are saying in Game 75 Eberle got three points like how do the two even relate.

 

[Joey Moss]

Hopefully McDavid will build up Eberle's value. Not that he doesn't have value, but as it stands right now this would be the worst time to move him. I believe going forward with McDavid, Draisaitl, Hall, and Yakupov up front would work as long as we have production on the backend. We have a lot of value available, no matter how some disgruntled fans see it. Just look at Spector's article on the managers/scouts who would have taken RNH over Johansen. For me, moving RNH is tough and you only do it if the defenseman coming back is worth it. Eberle on the other hand seems like a no-brainer for a solid defenseman. Even if we lose the deal by giving up the better player, it just has to happen.

I wonder how different guys like Hall, Yakupov and RNH would be perceived around the league if we had at least average production on the backend. This is the biggest issue with this team.