Trade and Free Agency Discussion Thread - Don't Expect More Augmenting

Status
Not open for further replies.

BlueForever75

Registered User
Oct 4, 2017
5,691
2,303
I still believe that Lilly holds a lot of value. I see him becoming a regular after the expansion draft next to Muzzin on second pairing. He cannot do any worse then Holl. Holl is a candidate to be dealt or selected by Seattle. In my eyes he should be a regular already ahead of Holl. He and Muzzin together would be a great pairing.
 

Rants Mulliniks

Registered User
Jun 22, 2008
23,071
6,136
The answer to this is a simple no. No matter when we could have traded him, his value to us, was always going to be more than whatever the return. Whatever the probability it is, that he works out, is still better than a 2nd/3rd round pick. He's been very solid in the AHL if you've watched him, but he hasn't been given time to transition to the NHL yet. I wouldn't count him out, but the way he plays, might not be ideal for what we need out of a D man.

So we don't want an RHD who plays well defensively and is good at transition?
 

BlueForever75

Registered User
Oct 4, 2017
5,691
2,303
So we don't want an RHD who plays well defensively and is good at transition?

We definitely want that, and the Leafs missed out the past 2 seasons making Lilly that player. Yes he would have struggled but by now he would have been a regular if given the chance. Injuries and being to careful with Lilly has caused his development to be stalled.

But there is no reason over the past 2 seasons he couldnt have been in lineup in the place of players like Holl, Ceci, Marincin and some may argue Barrie. He wouldnt have been that much worse then those players looking back.

Somehow they need to get him playing time at NHL level this season. Replace Holl for games depending on opponent. I dont see why you cant play him against a team like Edmonton, Montreal or Ottawa. Those teams arent the biggest of teams. Give him a try
 

Fogelhund

Registered User
Sep 15, 2007
21,361
23,878
So we don't want an RHD who plays well defensively and is good at transition?

Of course we do. When you look at our lineup, you figure that it's probable that Rielly, Brodie and Sandin are part of that group going forward. That's three guys, who are good at transition, but not very physical... all of them. Do we need another guy in the group, who is also not physical? Muzzin provides physicality, Bogo does too. Holl and Dermott and kind of average there. Lehtonen is too much of a wildcard currently, to make a statement about, I know nothing of him at the NHL level.

It's a tricky thing, trying to find balance in a group, to play well defensively, be good at transition, offensive capability, but also overall have some physicality, and be hard to play against, some good at PK. Maybe, maybe, Liljegren can become a partner for Muzzin... where Muzzin does that physical stuff, but Liljegren becomes our Stralman/Spurgeon. But I don't see a Rielly or Sandin paired with Liljegren as being an ideal situation long-term.
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,240
8,317
Serious.

I don't see him ever being an impact NHL player. What would he be worth in a trade right now? Can't be much. His value has tanked

he was a star no 1 defenseman in the AHL last year at what? 21? Not bad at all. I watched marlies games where he looked completely dominant.

sandin has clearly looked better in the NHL. But there have been multiple stretches where I have seen Lilly look better.

his what 10 game stretch for tbr leafs was not great. I will give you that. But he seems to be a slow starter...


if we give him up I don’t think we are losing a young Doughty. But he isn’t a dump IMO
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fogelhund

Fogelhund

Registered User
Sep 15, 2007
21,361
23,878
he was a star no 1 defenseman in the AHL last year at what? 21? Not bad at all. I watched marlies games where he looked completely dominant.

sandin has clearly looked better in the NHL. But there have been multiple stretches where I have seen Lilly look better.

his what 10 game stretch for tbr leafs was not great. I will give you that. But he seems to be a slow starter...


if we give him up I don’t think we are losing a young Doughty. But he isn’t a dump IMO

It hasn't mattered what level Liljegren has played at... he takes time to adjust to the play. I think he's a NHL D man at some point, it just might not be here. He's got some great qualities, but as I've said above, I'm not sure the overall package, fits into our puzzle.
 

Rants Mulliniks

Registered User
Jun 22, 2008
23,071
6,136
Of course we do. When you look at our lineup, you figure that it's probable that Rielly, Brodie and Sandin are part of that group going forward. That's three guys, who are good at transition, but not very physical... all of them. Do we need another guy in the group, who is also not physical? Muzzin provides physicality, Bogo does too. Holl and Dermott and kind of average there. Lehtonen is too much of a wildcard currently, to make a statement about, I know nothing of him at the NHL level.

It's a tricky thing, trying to find balance in a group, to play well defensively, be good at transition, offensive capability, but also overall have some physicality, and be hard to play against, some good at PK. Maybe, maybe, Liljegren can become a partner for Muzzin... where Muzzin does that physical stuff, but Liljegren becomes our Stralman/Spurgeon. But I don't see a Rielly or Sandin paired with Liljegren as being an ideal situation long-term.

All we have heard for a few years now is about the mystical unicorn of RHD. He's literally our succession plan. He's better (to date) defensively than Sandin. Physicality is like drafting for position rather than BPA. You fill that via other means.
 

rumman

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
13,969
10,178
he was a star no 1 defenseman in the AHL last year at what? 21? Not bad at all. I watched marlies games where he looked completely dominant.

sandin has clearly looked better in the NHL. But there have been multiple stretches where I have seen Lilly look better.

his what 10 game stretch for tbr leafs was not great. I will give you that. But he seems to be a slow starter...


if we give him up I don’t think we are losing a young Doughty. But he isn’t a dump IMO
Bruce Boudreau was a star in the A too, but it never translated to him being a solid NHLer.

Like Red said...............


Morgan-Freeman-Quotes-From-The-Shawshank-Redemption-Movies-1.jpeg
 

hamzarocks

Registered User
Jul 22, 2012
20,611
13,766
Pickering, Ontario
????? Joke or serious????
With niemela emerging as a top 4 RHD lilijgren could be moved depending on what is brought back.

A lilijgren+ 1st offer for a better player than Coleman could be the type of deal Dubas pulls to really put us over the top and go for the cup the next few years.

Guys I'd consider for that type of package would be

Rackell@50%
Gaudreau@50% (with another piece prob like abramov and cap piece like Holl)
Forsberg@50% (same as Gaudreau)
Lindholm@50% (with dermott being dealt away)

Etc
 

LeafChief

Matthew Knies Enthusiast
Mar 5, 2013
14,574
22,644
Scarborough
With Comrie and Forsberg being claimed on waivers today, Dell would have certainly been claimed if he were waived.

Surprised Nashville claims Sbisa over Kylington. Surprised Detroit didn't put in a claim on Kylington considering their success wit Swedes.
 

Fogelhund

Registered User
Sep 15, 2007
21,361
23,878
All we have heard for a few years now is about the mystical unicorn of RHD. He's literally our succession plan. He's better (to date) defensively than Sandin. Physicality is like drafting for position rather than BPA. You fill that via other means.

I don't disagree with you, on your assessment of Liljegren.

But if Liljegren and Sandin hit their potential next year, and our group is..

Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Liljegren
Sandin XXX

Is that a group that you feel has enough physicality?... and you can put any guy you want with Sandin.
 

Fogelhund

Registered User
Sep 15, 2007
21,361
23,878
With niemela emerging as a top 4 RHD lilijgren could be moved depending on what is brought back.

A lilijgren+ 1st offer for a better player than Coleman could be the type of deal Dubas pulls to really put us over the top and go for the cup the next few years.

Guys I'd consider for that type of package would be

Rackell@50%
Gaudreau@50% (with another piece prob like abramov and cap piece like Holl)
Forsberg@50% (same as Gaudreau)
Lindholm@50% (with dermott being dealt away)

Etc

Liljegren makes the NHL this year, or next. I've loved what I've seen from Niemala... but he is a Liljegren period of time away from the NHL... meaning, his emergence doesn't have much to do with Liljegren for another 3-4 years.
 

hamzarocks

Registered User
Jul 22, 2012
20,611
13,766
Pickering, Ontario
Liljegren makes the NHL this year, or next. I've loved what I've seen from Niemala... but he is a Liljegren period of time away from the NHL... meaning, his emergence doesn't have much to do with Liljegren for another 3-4 years.
Next year where does lilijgren play?

Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, Holl/Dermott, Sandin have the top 5 spots locked up. 3 LHDs and 2RHDs. The last spot is the 3RHD if we move on from one of Holl/Dermott.

Lilijgren and Sandin doesnt seem like a good bottom pair. He should have a veteran stable LHD partner but we dont really have that option unless we play Lilijgren on 2nd pair with Muzzin which I dont know he will be ready for as a rookie.

Lilijgren will need to force his way onto the team really next year. He should have been doing that this year but the short camp didnt really give him a great chance to do so.

I dont see his on ice value to the leafs being as good as his trade value for the jext few years. He wont get offensive opportunities within the leafs system with Rielly, Sandin ahead of him for sure and a few other guys as well.

In a trade he is still a A- asset who teams who could deploy him properly with PP time, a stable partner and a good defensive support set of forwards would love to trade for with his age being quite young.

Rakell/Lindholm/Gaudreau/Forsberg etc are pieces you imo give up Lilijgren for and you get 2 shots at going fir the cup with them while Lilijgren really only becomes a heavy contributor towards the cup in Matthews last year of his deal.
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,240
8,317
Next year where does lilijgren play?

Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, Holl/Dermott, Sandin have the top 5 spots locked up. 3 LHDs and 2RHDs. The last spot is the 3RHD if we move on from one of Holl/Dermott.

Lilijgren and Sandin doesnt seem like a good bottom pair. He should have a veteran stable LHD partner but we dont really have that option unless we play Lilijgren on 2nd pair with Muzzin which I dont know he will be ready for as a rookie.

Lilijgren will need to force his way onto the team really next year. He should have been doing that this year but the short camp didnt really give him a great chance to do so.

I dont see his on ice value to the leafs being as good as his trade value for the jext few years. He wont get offensive opportunities within the leafs system with Rielly, Sandin ahead of him for sure and a few other guys as well.

In a trade he is still a A- asset who teams who could deploy him properly with PP time, a stable partner and a good defensive support set of forwards would love to trade for with his age being quite young.

Rakell/Lindholm/Gaudreau/Forsberg etc are pieces you imo give up Lilijgren for and you get 2 shots at going fir the cup with them while Lilijgren really only becomes a heavy contributor towards the cup in Matthews last year of his deal.

We will expose one or 2 of holl/dermott.

could be.....

Reilly. Brodie.
Muzz. Dermott
Sandin. Lilly.

you also need 7 d at minimum
 

hamzarocks

Registered User
Jul 22, 2012
20,611
13,766
Pickering, Ontario
We will expose one or 2 of holl/dermott.

could be.....

Reilly. Brodie.
Muzz. Dermott
Sandin. Lilly.

you also need 7 d at minimum

Sandin-Lily pairing I just dont like based on their short sample size at the NHL level.

Perhaps it works better with both having gotten physically more accustomed to Nhl level play but usually pairing two young guys trying to break onto the team is not a strategy used by mane teams.
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
35,591
16,775
With Comrie and Forsberg being claimed on waivers today, Dell would have certainly been claimed if he were waived.

Surprised Nashville claims Sbisa over Kylington. Surprised Detroit didn't put in a claim on Kylington considering their success wit Swedes.

Dell still can get claimed.
 

Fogelhund

Registered User
Sep 15, 2007
21,361
23,878
Next year where does lilijgren play?

Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, Holl/Dermott, Sandin have the top 5 spots locked up. 3 LHDs and 2RHDs. The last spot is the 3RHD if we move on from one of Holl/Dermott.

Lilijgren and Sandin doesnt seem like a good bottom pair. He should have a veteran stable LHD partner but we dont really have that option unless we play Lilijgren on 2nd pair with Muzzin which I dont know he will be ready for as a rookie.

Lilijgren will need to force his way onto the team really next year. He should have been doing that this year but the short camp didnt really give him a great chance to do so.

I dont see his on ice value to the leafs being as good as his trade value for the jext few years. He wont get offensive opportunities within the leafs system with Rielly, Sandin ahead of him for sure and a few other guys as well.

In a trade he is still a A- asset who teams who could deploy him properly with PP time, a stable partner and a good defensive support set of forwards would love to trade for with his age being quite young.

Rakell/Lindholm/Gaudreau/Forsberg etc are pieces you imo give up Lilijgren for and you get 2 shots at going fir the cup with them while Lilijgren really only becomes a heavy contributor towards the cup in Matthews last year of his deal.

Which is a completely different argument than what I responded to. Your claim was Niemala makes Liljegren expendable, when he's years away.

If you don't see a roster spot for him, that's a completely different discussion.

Here we are at pre-season, having a discussion about next years lineup. Here is the challenge in that... we have no idea how this D lineup is going to work for us. Does Holl cement himself as a legit #4, or is he replaceable? Does Dermott emerge as a RD option, when we don't know much about that. Can Dermott become the guy we saw when other guys went down last year, and he excelled, or is he the guy who was mediocre the rest of the year? Does Liljegren's game move forward, and display that he belongs in the discussion? We don't know the answer to any of this yet.

If you read the discussions above, I too question how Liljegren fits, and also wonder whether a pairing of Sandin/Liljgren is ideal.

That said... Dermott could emerge as the better #3LD, an solidify his game... Sandin could make Dermott expendable. Lehtonen could be better than both offensively, and adequate defensively. Dermott could be a decent RD, and make Holl expendable.

I think we are really safe to say, that Rielly, Brodie and Muzzin are the core next year, and how the rest shapes up, depends on how these guys play, and progress. It's five guys, fighting for likely two spots on the squad next year... Who knows how it plays out... but come deadline, we might know who is expendable.
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,240
8,317
Sandin-Lily pairing I just dont like based on their short sample size at the NHL level.

Perhaps it works better with both having gotten physically more accustomed to Nhl level play but usually pairing two young guys trying to break onto the team is not a strategy used by mane teams.

yep that’s true. I guess I was kinda thinking of it being sandins 3rd season. But he won’t get much time.

sandin and Lilly looked great in A. They may have to have a vet 7 d and do a rotation.
 

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
26,711
33,102
Serious.

I don't see him ever being an impact NHL player. What would he be worth in a trade right now? Can't be much. His value has tanked
This screams of someone who hasn't watched a single game, and has no patience.
Lilly was a star #1 d man at age 20/21, and has a ton of value. I love seeing people make baseless assumptions.
Leafs also have Lilly as an untouchable
 

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
26,711
33,102
he was a star no 1 defenseman in the AHL last year at what? 21? Not bad at all. I watched marlies games where he looked completely dominant.

sandin has clearly looked better in the NHL. But there have been multiple stretches where I have seen Lilly look better.

his what 10 game stretch for tbr leafs was not great. I will give you that. But he seems to be a slow starter...


if we give him up I don’t think we are losing a young Doughty. But he isn’t a dump IMO
Yeah if we deal him, these fans will look pretty silly.
Anyone who watched Lilly knows he takes time to adjust in every league, once he does watch out
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fogelhund
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad