Tough Call : Tomas Plekanec

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Tomas Plekanec - The long-overdue Part II edition

Ohashi,

1) Many fans believe that Galchenyuk and Eller need more ice time for optimal development. How do you propose to do that without shifting Plekanec's role, given that Desharnais is not going anywhere?
2) Plekanec is 33 at the start of the season, he will be steadily declinong. If he has averaged out as a 53 point player in the last three, and a 61 point player in the three years before that, we can expect him to be a 45 point player in the next three years. Is that really worth more to the Habs than his trade value?

DA:

1) Without shifting Plekanec's role? Without DD going anywhere? I've never posted anything under such premises. Plekanec's role will shift with time, and DD won't be on this team for long. Have faith.
2) If his production is commensurate with his compensation, and he contributes in all those ways that quality veterans are expected to, I don't think his current trade value is of any importance/issue. He's worth more to OUR team, especially in the short term.

Click to read more...

 

[417]

Plekanec is the perfect 3rd line center. The organization needs to understand this.

Plekanec is heading into his UFA season, do you think he's going to take a pay cut? Or do you think it's wise to pay your 3rd line center 5M+?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Or do you think it's wise to pay your 3rd line center 5M+?

Do you think it's wise to waste time worrying about hypothetical combinations of role/compensation that may not end up being reflected in reality?

 

[DAChampion]

DA:

1) Without shifting Plekanec's role? Without DD going anywhere? I've never posted anything under such premises. Plekanec's role will shift with time, and DD won't be on this team for long. Have faith.
2) If his production is commensurate with his compensation, and he contributes in all those ways that quality veterans are expected to, I don't think his current trade value is of any importance/issue. He's worth more to OUR team, especially in the short term.

No faith sorry.

 

[417]

DA:

1) Without shifting Plekanec's role? Without DD going anywhere? I've never posted anything under such premises. Plekanec's role will shift with time, and DD won't be on this team for long. Have faith.
2) If his production is commensurate with his compensation, and he contributes in all those ways that quality veterans are expected to, I don't think his current trade value is of any importance/issue. He's worth more to OUR team, especially in the short term.

Everyone's trade value is of importance, what a ridiculous statement to make.

As this relates to Plekanec, he might be worth more to OUR team than he's worth in a trade, key word being 'might'.

But i'm sure the team will do it's due diligence and see what type of value he has given his contract status with the Habs. It's only normal...

Again, Plekanec is a solid player for the Habs and an important one...but he's not essential to this teams success moving forward. He's not Carey Price or PK Subban or Max Pacioretty.

Whether you like to read this or not, but Plekanec is heading into a contract year...a decision will have to be made.

He's either going to get traded, re-signed or he'll just walk at the end of next season.

if the team does intend to re-sign him, where do you slot him in salary wise? he's currently making 5.25M a year, I can't see him taking a pay cut heading into his free agency, which then makes you wonder if it's prudent to pay a guy who will be 34 at the start of that following season, 5M+ for another 2-3-4 years???

Or do you just play out the year and let him walk? I'm not as adverse to that as most, but it seems kind of ridiculous to let a guy with good value walk for nothing.

Which leaves the other option...of him being traded. Because of the salary cap, teams have difficult decisions to make every offseason, this is likely the case with Plekanec this offseason.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

No faith sorry.

Well, I'm sorry that I'm not onboard the HMCS "If it's going to be screwed up, screw it up as much as possible until SOMEONE learns a lesson" with you guys. Rough, murky course of hypotheticals charted.

 

[417]

Do you think it's wise to waste time worrying about hypothetical combinations of role/compensation that may not end up being reflected in reality?

Well why the hell else do you think I have an account and post here?

To just talk about things that have happened??

How is it unwise to wonder about how much Plekanec will cost if he's re-signed?

I don't know...seems pretty 'a propos' to me, seeing as this is the Plekanec Appreciation Thread

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Everyone's trade value is of importance, what a ridiculous statement to make.

It's obviously another way of saying that his value is likely greater here than in a trade, for myriad reasons. At least you eventually picked up on that.

And I guess I just don't find scenarios involving impending UFAs and things you "can't see" as scary/worrisome as you do.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Well why the hell else do you think I have an account and post here?

To just talk about things that have happened??

How is it unwise to wonder about how much Plekanec will cost if he's re-signed?

I don't know...seems pretty 'a propos' to me, seeing as this is the Plekanec Appreciation Thread

No no, you're not "wondering", you're worried that his role won't diminish with time. You're worried that his level of play won't warrant his level of compensation. You're worried about the possibility that he might end up leaving for nothing. And you seem to be disappointed that not many people are worrying as much as you. You don't have a crystal ball, and you haven't just stepped out of a time machine, so there's only so much substance to be derived out of discussing the very specific hypotheticals you've decided to focus on.

 

[417]

It's obviously another way of saying that his value is likely greater here than in a trade, for myriad reasons. At least you eventually picked up on that.

And I guess I just don't find scenarios involving impending UFAs and things you "can't see" as scary/worrisome as you do.

Yes i'm trying to keep up here Ohashi_Jouzu...

Anyways...

How do you know that his value is likely greater here than in a trade? What are you basing this on?

If Plekanec is as great as you and many others make him out to be, then doesn't it stand to reason that his trade value would be quite high?

I've read the term 'high-end 2nd line center' bandied about when describing Plekanec, seems to me that teams would pay a handsome fee for that. I mean look at what Vermette went for, and we can all agree that Plekanec is better.

 

[Sorinth]

I never talked about his offensive contribution, like Gonchar, he will always have relatively high point totals. The issues become, how much of a defensive liability he will be.

So we can't get anything out of Plekanec and Markov, that's what you are saying, and then they are top pairing Ds and top forwards?

Gonchar had 13 points, I wouldn't consider that relatively high point totals.

But for Markov, he's still being used on the top pairing against the other teams best players. So if he was a defensive liability we would expect him to get lit up, yet he was +22.


Well I don't think any team would take both Markov and Plekanec because of the near 11m cap hit. Individually you'd likely get a mid-late 1st and a couple prospects for both. Or you could potentially swap them for a similar player at a different position if you find a team with the right fit.

But hey if you think we can get a young stud defenceman who'll be able to replace Markov in a year why not post your proposal so we can see whether it's actually reasonable.

 

[417]

No no, you're not "wondering",

Yay...this is the part where YOU'RE going to tell ME, what i'm thinking.

you're worried that his role won't diminish with time.

His level of play will determine that...I really can't answer that.

You're worried that his level of play won't warrant his level of compensation.

I have no idea what his compensation will be, THIS is the very question i'm debating. The very question that you've told me is irrelevant because it's a 'hypothetical'.

You're worried about the possibility that he might end up leaving for nothing

Not at all, as mentioned in the very post you quoted...I don't have an issue with letting your UFA's walk because in this day and age, they don't walk away for nothing really, an expiring contract has a lot of value to a team. It gives more roster/cap flexibility...so I'd have no issue if the Habs decided to play out the year with Plekanec and then let him walk next summer.

If that's the best course of action determined for this coming season, meaning the trade offers for Plekanec aren't sufficient and they're not willing to commit more money long term to him...then so be it.

And you seem to be disappointed that not many people are worrying as much as you.

Come on...this isn't our first rodeo. You should know by know that I have no problem going against the grain. I don't post my thoughts to have people agree with me, if they do, bonus. I enjoy debating and enjoy even more when I can debate opposing views with some with respect.

You don't have a crystal ball, and you haven't just stepped out of a time machine, so there's only so much substance to be derived out of discussing the very specific hypotheticals you've decided to focus on

other than another failed attempt at trying to intimidate me out of having my own opinion, I have no clue why you wrote this. It's completely irrelevant to anything I've written.

How is discussing Plekanec's impending unrestricted free agency, a hypothetical. We're already into the offseason pretty much, the draft is around the corner, so is unrestricted free agency. Teams are already starting to prepare for next year...how the hell is this a hypothetical?

you must of fell and bumped your head

 

[S Bah]

I find him to still be a highly valuable asset. He's a 1-2 tweener for certain, but had been our overall best centre for years. Let's not forget that we also drafted and developed him.

Defensively, he's easily top 15 in the league, IMO. Offensively, he's quite a bit lower, but still effective. He's too much a shoot first guy, and has some difficulty developing chemistry with many of his wingers. He and Gionta were a great duo until Brian was well past his prime.

Now might be the best time to move him, especially if Bergevin is considering a true transitional year. I'd expect to get a mid-first-rounder and decent prospect, and believe that's a realistic expectation.

I'd also be thrilled to keep him and be able to use him as our 3rd line C in a couple of years. That would be indicative of many improvements in the interim.

Chiarelli GM of Edmonton certainly knows the worth of Plekanec, the Habs could conceivably get their 16th & 33rd picks for Tomas. The problem there would be trying to make the playoffs without him, he has continually been the forward with the most icetime for yrs., playing a two-way game shutting down the best lines of opponents. Using those two picks might get the Habs one of Matt Barzal or Kyle Connor for the future, 2-3 yrs. before they will make an impact similar to Tomas, that is if they develop into the player expected. That is a gamble, not to mention the loss of profits missing the playoffs, both monetary and experience for the team in the playoffs, which is an intangible that can be measured by hockey people. The question is are the Habs strong enough at center and LW, moving Galchenyuk to center to replace Plekanec. Whose the LW that takes Galchenyuk spot and supplies the top six minutes, Scherbak is not ready for that, Hudon might be, but is untested in the NHL. Tough position for a team to take those types of risks, people lose jobs if they are wrong in the real world for taking bad business risks, even though it may pay off in the near future.

 

[417]

Chiarelli GM of Edmonton certainly knows the worth of Plekanec, the Habs could conceivably get their 16th & 33rd picks for Tomas. The problem there would be trying to make the playoffs without him, he has continually been the forward with the most icetime for yrs., playing a two-way game shutting down the best lines of opponents. Using those two picks might get the Habs one of Matt Barzal or Kyle Connor for the future, 2-3 yrs. before they will make an impact similar to Tomas, that is if they develop into the player expected. That is a gamble, not to mention the loss of profits missing the playoffs, both monetary and experience for the team in the playoffs, which is an intangible that can be measured by hockey people. The question is are the Habs strong enough at center and LW, moving Galchenyuk to center to replace Plekanec. Whose the LW that takes Galchenyuk spot and supplies the top six minutes, Scherbak is not ready for that, Hudon might be, but is untested in the NHL. Tough position for a team to take those types of risks, people lose jobs if they are wrong in the real world for taking bad business risks, even though it may pay off in the near future.

I don't think that's realistic at all...but lets say they were able to pull a deal off like this.

They could also use those 2 draft picks + say another of their own prospect or 2 to acquire another top forward.

I think the Habs biggest problem right now, is that they need high-end talent up front, specifically, in their top 6. This is extremely difficult to acquire unless you have assets that you can afford to liquidate without depleting your organizational depth.

As things stand right now, the Habs can't afford to trade the players/prospects/draft pick opposing teams would want.

They simply do not have enough assets.

I've said it several times, but Bergevin is going to have to be extremely creative to get what the Habs need. He knows it too, at least, that's the message I received from his end of season press conference

 

[Capitano]

Plekanec is heading into his UFA season, do you think he's going to take a pay cut? Or do you think it's wise to pay your 3rd line center 5M+?

The only way I can accept Pleks in Montreal is if he is NOT playing as the #1 C and I would give Eller his linemates to see what he could do.

Bottom line Pleks isn't a spring chicken (neither is Markov) and it's in our best interest to investigate trading these guys before we lose them for nothing. Either we contend or we build...if they are part of the solution then fine, go out and get some bodies to play in the top 6 to push Pleks down the depth chart to play in him in a proper capacity. Or else trade him, it's that simple.

Pleks is NOT a top 6 guy on a cup team, no chance. He is like Vermette was for Chicago this year. That's his spot. We are the ones misusing him and expecting things to change. I've seen enough...let's move on please.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Yes i'm trying to keep up here Ohashi_Jouzu...

Try harder?

Anyways...

How do you know that his value is likely greater here than in a trade? What are you basing this on?

Uh, the fact that it's not so easy to just take Player A, insert him into the Montreal Canadiens hockey scene, and have him thrive for a decade or more (especially in large roles). And the fact that he is still out-performing all the in-house options. And the fact that he is as low maintenance a veteran as you could hope to find. And the fact that he already has the confidence of those in charge of the team. I mean, I could go on, but I feel like I'm sharing pretty standard answers for anyone who has been following hockey for a long time.

If Plekanec is as great as you and many others make him out to be, then doesn't it stand to reason that his trade value would be quite high?

Sure. Price's is higher. Aim for the sky, right?

I've read the term 'high-end 2nd line center' bandied about when describing Plekanec, seems to me that teams would pay a handsome fee for that. I mean look at what Vermette went for, and we can all agree that Plekanec is better.

It's not just "bandied about". It's pretty much consensus, given that he still performs very well in a 20 min/night role.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

The only way I can accept Pleks in Montreal is if he is NOT playing as the #1 C and I would give Eller his linemates to see what he could do.

Bottom line Pleks isn't a spring chicken (neither is Markov) and it's in our best interest to investigate trading these guys before we lose them for nothing. Either we contend or we build...if they are part of the solution then fine, go out and get some bodies to play in the top 6 to push Pleks down the depth chart to play in him in a proper capacity. Or else trade him, it's that simple.

Pleks is NOT a top 6 guy on a cup team, no chance. He is like Vermette was for Chicago this year. That's his spot. We are the ones misusing him and expecting things to change. I've seen enough...let's move on please.

Plekanec could have easily played in Richards' role with Chicago, and done just as good of a job if not better.

Plekanec has never been the issue, him being the #1 center on the team is the issue.

He could make a great #2 center on a cup winning team.

You just make yourself look silly when you conclude that because he isn't good enough to be a #1 center, it means he isn't good enough to be a #2 center.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Pleks is NOT a top 6 guy on a cup team, no chance. He is like Vermette was for Chicago this year. That's his spot. We are the ones misusing him and expecting things to change. I've seen enough...let's move on please.

Or is he more like Richards? You know, Chicago's #2 centre that fools once gave up on early as well.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Not at all, as mentioned in the very post you quoted...I don't have an issue with letting your UFA's walk because in this day and age, they don't walk away for nothing really, an expiring contract has a lot of value to a team. It gives more roster/cap flexibility...so I'd have no issue if the Habs decided to play out the year with Plekanec and then let him walk next summer.

If that's the best course of action determined for this coming season, meaning the trade offers for Plekanec aren't sufficient and they're not willing to commit more money long term to him...then so be it.

Interesting thought..

To keep Plekanec just for one season and let him walk because his value to the team for one year is greater than what we could trade him for this summer.... what would his trade value have to be ? What is the threshold where we say "no way, I'd rather keep him and lose him for nothing next summer" ? And how likely is it that his real value is equal or below that threshold ?

That said I'm not sure I agree with the concept that UFAs don't walk away for nothing because they liberate cap space. Plekanec would liberate the same space if he was traded for a pick or prospect.

 

[groovejuice]

I don't think that's realistic at all...but lets say they were able to pull a deal off like this.

They could also use those 2 draft picks + say another of their own prospect or 2 to acquire another top forward.

I think the Habs biggest problem right now, is that they need high-end talent up front, specifically, in their top 6. This is extremely difficult to acquire unless you have assets that you can afford to liquidate without depleting your organizational depth.

As things stand right now, the Habs can't afford to trade the players/prospects/draft pick opposing teams would want.

They simply do not have enough assets.

I've said it several times, but Bergevin is going to have to be extremely creative to get what the Habs need. He knows it too, at least, that's the message I received from his end of season press conference

That's why this is the wrong year to go all in for a trade IMO; I can't conceive trading either of our best 2 prospects before they've played any pro hockey.

We can improve by getting Sharp, who's still a useful player and Frolik, who is UFA. Both DD and PAP are expendable to make room for players like Ghetto and Hudon.

It's controversial to trade Plekanec, but I'd seriously consider it if the return was extremely valuable. We'll never win a cup by standing pat and we've seen just how important it is to promote young players.

 

[417]

Try harder?

Like I've said...you can try to intimidate me out of having my own opinion. But it's not going to work, keep lobbing veiled insults, it doesn't bother me. I don't know you and i'm not an internet thug

Have fun though

Uh, the fact that it's not so easy to just take Player A, insert him into the Montreal Canadiens hockey scene, and have him thrive for a decade or more (especially in large roles). And the fact that he is still out-performing all the in-house options. And the fact that he is as low maintenance a veteran as you could hope to find. And the fact that he already has the confidence of those in charge of the team. I mean, I could go on, but I feel like I'm sharing pretty standard answers for anyone who has been following hockey for a long time.

What the hell is this gibberish? What does this have to do with anything I wrote? None of this says whether or not another team may place higher value in him and would be willing to trade the Habs the assets they want?

I mean, cute story...thanks for giving me the synopsis of Tomas Pleaknec's career as a Montreal Canadien, but the fact still remains that he's heading into his UFA year.

Sure. Price's is higher. Aim for the sky, right?

Price is essential to this teams success now and moving forward...same with Subban, same with Pacioretty (at least IMO).

I don't agree that this holds true for Tomas Plekanec.

It's not just "bandied about". It's pretty much consensus, given that he still performs very well in a 20 min/night role

a consensus implies that there's a general agreement that Plekanc is a 'high end 2nd line center'. I haven't taken a poll, but I doubt that this 'consensus' holds true anywhere outside this Montreal Canadiens board, never mind this very thread.

 

[417]

Or is he more like Richards? You know, Chicago's #2 centre that fools once gave up on early as well.

Please...Brad Richards is done

Not to mention he's making 2M a year

You think that's anywhere near the salary that Plekanec is going to command after next year??

 

[417]

Interesting thought..

To keep Plekanec just for one season and let him walk because his value to the team for one year is greater than what we could trade him for this summer.... what would his trade value have to be ? What is the threshold where we say "no way, I'd rather keep him and lose him for nothing next summer" ? And how likely is it that his real value is equal or below that threshold ?

That said I'm not sure I agree with the concept that UFAs don't walk away for nothing because they liberate cap space. Plekanec would liberate the same space if he was traded for a pick or prospect.

it's definitely not the best course of action...but if the Habs are testing the waters and seeing what Plekanec might fetch in a trade and aren't happy with what they're receiving, well I can see them just playing the year out and letting things fall where they may.

I think Plekanec is overrated by Habs fans, but that doesn't mean he's garbage...he's a quality player and an important one for the Habs. They can't move him for a 2nd round pick + a B level prospect and go into next year with the aim of challenging for a Cup.

 

[Monctonscout]

It's time to put Pleks strictly third line center in defensive role...Chuckie and Eller should 1 and 2...DLR should be number 4 with Mitchell taking important draws....DLR will be a fanastic shut down center for years to come. His play started to decline when he was moved to the wing. It doesn't make sense that a coach removes a player from his natural position when that player comes to play in the best league. Same thing with young defencemen, you bring up to the NHL and then you put him on the wrong side in the best league. Doesn't make sense.

So let me get this straight...you're a team struggling to score and your plan is to shift the 60 point center BEHIND the 25 point center and 48 point winger?

Your goal must be to build the 30th best offense.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

That's why this is the wrong year to go all in for a trade IMO; I can't conceive trading either of our best 2 prospects before they've played any pro hockey.

We can improve by getting Sharp, who's still a useful player and Frolik, who is UFA. Both DD and PAP are expendable to make room for players like Ghetto and Hudon.

It's controversial to trade Plekanec, but I'd seriously consider it if the return was extremely valuable. We'll never win a cup by standing pat and we've seen just how important it is to promote young players.

I agree with this entirely.

My issue wtih the team has been their usage of certain players over the last couple years, when it's obvious that to open the 2015/2016 season they will still have glaring holes...

103 games in 2013/2014 went to Bouillon and Murray. Those could have been spent more wisely.

Probably close to 1500 minutes at Even Strength in the last 2 seasons for Desharnais with Pacioretty, minutes that could have given Galchenyuk tremendous experience.

2 full seasons without trying Eller in an increased role, and while I agree a Plekanec trade is worth considering, without seeing if Eller can handle that role it's flat out foolish to consider today.